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I know there's related threads but I felt like venting.
I'm frustrated with protoss lately. So much that I've been considering switching races. But, I don't want to spend time trying to learn a new race, their matchups, and so on. I always played protoss even in BW and it just...makes sense? I'm not sure how else to play it.
I've found writing out my frustrations helps so that's what I'm doing.
1. Flexibility. I feel like protoss aren't as flexible as zerg or terran. Especially terran. Terran can go 111 and literally be within an addon or one tech building of just about any unit they want. I can't do that as protoss.
2. Lack of control. As a protoss player I often feel like I must always be the reactive player. This isn't necessarily always a bad thing; sometimes my opponent does what I hope they will and even though I'm reacting I'm...also not, in a sense. But, more often than not, I find myself scouting, only to sigh at finding some tech building I'd rather not see, or a unit mix that will steamroll mine, and end up having to change units, tech, upgrades, and so on.
3. Lack of effective harass. I know, I know. Pheonixes. They aren't bad. But, for me to open just to go phoenix, I'm left rather vulnerable. I have no detection. I have a lower army count, and on top of that, phoenix are pretty weak themselves. A small pack of marines or hydras and I'm likely to lose one or two phoenix before I can realistically react. Compare this to terran who have banshees and hellions, both of which are superb as harassment units, or to zerg who have mutalisks, which are probably the epitome of a harassment unit.
4. I'm underwhelmed by a lot of protoss units. Zealots are zealots. Stalkers seem less useful than dragoons used to be. Sentries are a nice touch, but I think a lot of times proper FF ans GS usage is more important than the actual units I have. I've won and lost games purely because of some epic FFs. I once won a PvP purely because I kept my ramp FFed for a minuite or two while an expansion he didn't know about came online so I could suddenly start producing units faster than he could kill them. Motherships are, for a unit I can only have one of, that costs 400/400/8, and takes forever to build, a joke. The new void ray is kind of boring, too.
I think there's still some changes that should be made. But, the problem there is that if you change one race you're also changing two matchips. Right now PvZ seems fine; or at least I've never had a single zerg player complain about protoss aside from finding something irritating. PvT on the other hand...I'm not so sure PvT is entirely fair. I still think there's small windows where the terran should win or else is doomed to be stormed to death all late game.
Hopefully as I get better the frustration will go away, or hopefully Blizzard will make some useful and creative changes to protoss.
 
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Protoss are ok, stop whining unless you have 2000+ pts and you can explain your theory with replays...
Open robo - immo - obs vs terran and work from there.
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Try playing the other races for a while. I just switched to protoss for shits and while I'm still learning, I've already gotten to the same level as my Z play (P is easier imo). Protoss units are awesome. So many P units allow you exploit micro to gain large advantages (FF, blink, graviton, storm, feedback etc.). I'm finding the hardest thing about protoss is being able to safely and reliably expand without dieing to some kind of all-in (mass roach/ling), but its barely been a week and I'm already getting the hang of it. In addition to the fact that protoss rewards smart tactics and micro, they require less apm (than Z at least). Overall I am pretty pleased with them.
As far as harass goes, you have phoenix, DT, voids, and drops/cliffwalk. When you compare it to the other races you have just as many harassment options, they just come in different forms. Just because you can't wreck someones entire economy without any effort doesn't mean you don't have good harass. The amount of map control you get from phoenix/dt's/voids is nuts, and phase prisms are really dual purpose, you have a mobile pylon you can use to reinforce as well as drop. I never really see anyone do storm drops, but I'm going to start trying to use them since they poop on entire mineral lines.
Once I started 3gate expoing vs Z and gate/robo/gate vs T with immortal first I stopped losing to the majority of early pushes and things got alot more fun. Getting pooped on by good EMP's sucks, and mutas can be a bitch, but I hardly find it as frustrating as playing Z.
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On November 06 2010 05:40 ScDeluX wrote:
Protoss are ok, stop whining unless you have 2000+ pts and you can explain your theory with replays...
Open robo - immo - obs vs terran and work from there.
Yeah, a large part of it is that I just need to get better. I didn't mean to sound like I'm QQing. (Reading my own post that's exactly what it looks like, though. :X)
My mechanics aren't perfect yet; I'm pretty lazy with macro (ahem), and my micro isn't great, either.
I'm sure I'll get better with time and experience and just generally looking over my losses to find where I went wrong.
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Right of the top of my head I can say this. I tried all the races in beta, from Terran to Zerg and then to the race I liked the least in BW: protoss. In my last BW months I switched from Terran to Zerg and had so much fun with them. If you want to switch races, it's literally one click away. Just fucking do it. Fuck numbers, fuck rank. Nobody but you cares about your own wins/losses anyway.
The reason why I stuck with protoss and why I felt I'm doing good with them is because I played them from 99 to 01 maybe and then never again. There was no mental urge for me to play this SC2 race like in BW, which is good because it's better to shake off all your BW knowledge but basic management if you're learning a race.
And. Do not think about what your race lacks in comparison to others, but where it has it's strengths. Protoss is a race with a unique potential. Just like zerg has the potential to explode it's macro, so has the protoss the potential to be everywhere in anyway the situation calls for . You say protoss are very reactive, that is true, but think about it in what way. A pylon, and to much greater effect the warp prism gives you the freedom to react to anything in a very short time. It is a very flexible race in its very own way. Tester got so good and famous because he played protoss as protoss and not as terran or zerg. Protoss need to stop trying to go up against other races on their own field.
I'm not saying I dont get frustrated with protoss haha, but there is a ton of very cool stuff going on with this race that is so underrated and unused.
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I agree with a lot of your sentiments, however... phoenixes are in my opinion the single best harass unit. I usually open up two gate/forge into stargate (while researching warpgate), get 4 phoenixes, and just go to town against zergs. Two cannons and some sentries at your choke is good enough to stop almost everything early on... if you see them going really heavy roach, just build more cannons. You might lose a warp gate or pylon, but his economy is going to be completely destroyed. I also suggest just ignoring queens and going for drones.
If you're losing Phoenixes really frequently, you're overcommitting them. It is really, really rare I lose even a single phoenix before the first major battle. And it's never more than one. Even if you completely fail in your harass, they're stuck in their base and you can expand.
They also work pretty well in PvP. Unfortunately, I feel like phoenixes aren't so great in PvT... turrets stop them cold, and marines are everywhere. And viking/marine renders them unable to even get close to anything.
Personally I think phoenixes are waaay too much fun. If I get the chance to use them without throwing the game away, I build them. D:
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On November 06 2010 05:45 LazyMacro wrote:
I'm sure I'll get better with time and experience and just generally looking over my losses to find where I went wrong.
When I feel bad like this I download a *pro* replay and copy builds.
It work often and puts you in the mood to victory like wow this 3 gate blink looked like an ezpz victory, ill 200 apm this n win GOGOGOGO.
Sounds weird but it work but me.
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On November 06 2010 05:49 Jayson X wrote:
Right of the top of my head I can say this. I tried all the races in beta, from Terran to Zerg and then to the race I liked the least in BW: protoss. In my last BW months I switched from Terran to Zerg and had so much fun with them. If you want to switch races, it's literally one click away. Just fucking do it. Fuck numbers, fuck rank. Nobody but you cares about your own wins/losses anyway.
The reason why I stuck with protoss and why I felt I'm doing good with them is because I played them from 99 to 01 maybe and then never again. There was no mental urge for me to play this SC2 race like in BW, which is good because it's better to shake off all your BW knowledge but basic management if you're learning a race.
And. Do not think about what your race lacks in comparison to others, but where it has it's strengths. Protoss is a race with a unique potential. Just like zerg has the potential to explode it's macro, so has the protoss the potential to be everywhere in anyway the situation calls for . You say protoss are very reactive, that is true, but think about it in what way. A pylon, and to much greater effect the warp prism gives you the freedom to react to anything in a very short time. It is a very flexible race in its very own way. Tester got so good and famous because he played protoss as protoss and not as terran or zerg. Protoss need to stop trying to go up against other races on their own field.
I'm not saying I dont get frustrated with protoss haha, but there is a ton of very cool stuff going on with this race that is so underrated and unused.
That's a good perspective. I think I really need to spend more time trying cute things with warp prisms and such.
Actually, the games I've been winning recently have come purely from two or three pronged attacks hitting multiple places simultaneously. Maybe not in force, but half a dozen units at each expansion is a little difficult to deal with if you don't know it's coming.
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On November 06 2010 05:54 ScDeluX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 05:45 LazyMacro wrote:
I'm sure I'll get better with time and experience and just generally looking over my losses to find where I went wrong. When I feel bad like this I download a *pro* replay and copy builds. It work often and puts you in the mood to victory like wow this 3 gate blink looked like an ezpz victory, ill 200 apm this n win GOGOGOGO. Sounds weird but it work but me.
I literally did this exact thing last night.
PvZ on Shakuras, I copied Tyler's build from game three of the GosuCoaching showmatch with Idra. It worked surprisingly well, although Tyler did it better. :D
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Did you say that you were reactive in all matchups? Get out.
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Opening citadel first vs terran has helped me tremendously. If there's one place terran is lacking early its detection.
Open citadel, if you somehow scout a fast raven build transition into a standard army with one or two high templars and use them to feedback either the raven itself or the point defense drone(i've never actually had to use this strategy). Or if they are opening standard, rush to dt. They will usually have a scan or two ready, but it delays them from moving out or possibly expanding while you expand yourself. From there transitioning into speedlots + immortals has worked well for me (nullifies the PD drone they are bound to have), then follow with high templars and storm. Note that their push will almost always come right before dark templars are ready to be made, do your best with what you have and use forcefield on your ramp as a backup.
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You are right about being inflexible, especially vs terran. I dont think there is a single build that is long term viable that does not include a somewhat fast robo for the observer due to banshees. Cannons aren't a realistic defense vs banshees since the banshees have so much range they will be able to pick away at stuff no matter what.
Terran have scan which means free detection at the cost of it not being available, but at least they can save scans if they are worried about banshees and it just costs them some income. Not only that but since their tech tree is linear(rax->fact->starport) they can get their detection with out being locked into a particular tech tree like toss is.
Zerg need teir two, which would be the equivalent of observers producing from the robo, twilight council, and the stargate.
It really pisses me off how my choices vs terran are go robo, or lose if they go banshee. At least with DT(the other cloaked probe killer) you can use static detection since
1. they are forced to walk on the ground
2. they are melee, so they cant just sit outside the sight range and kill things that are in the sight range.
On some of your other points
Im ok with the status of harass, Phoenixes are good at harass/scout, and great vs air. Blink stalkers are good in a normal fight, and they are pretty damn good at harass too.
Yes-A huge amount of being able to play protoss is effective force field use.
The mothership, and to lesser extent carriers are jokes, i really wish the mothership had less hp, was faster and costed less(aka arbiter)
I think terran is really the only race that is not reactive at its core. Most of the units are good vs everything, but dont really excel like some of the more specialized protoss and zerg units(HT for shutting down bio play, broodlords killing ground) This is what causes them to be so strong early-mid game, and weaker late game
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Some very good insights from you guys responding to OP... I been trying to learn P lately, hopefully Ill try out some of the stuff Ive read here... cuz I been really frustrated playin P lately
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Yeah, I used to play Protoss in BW as well. But SC2 protoss is simply not BW protoss.
Terran is more like BW protoss than SC2 protoss is like BW protoss.
My heart wants to play protoss, but my brain is telling me to play terran. I don't know which one to listen to.
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On November 06 2010 05:40 ScDeluX wrote:
Protoss are ok, stop whining unless you have 2000+ pts and you can explain your theory with replays...
Open robo - immo - obs vs terran and work from there.
I agree with him. What now?
It can be pretty dull to play, and a lot of the other Ps I know have similar sentiments.
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EPT
