• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 20:42
CET 02:42
KST 10:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational0SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets4$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)16Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns7
StarCraft 2
General
herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational When will we find out if there are more tournament PhD study /w SC2 - help with a survey! Stellar Fest "01" Jersey Charity Auction Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win
Tourneys
$70 Prize Pool Ladder Legends Academy Weekly Open! SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC2 AI Tournament 2026 $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Gypsy to Korea [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 Small VOD Thread 2.0 Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2
Strategy
Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Awesome Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread NASA and the Private Sector Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Navigating the Risks and Rew…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2386 users

Theorycraft About Compositions TvX

Blogs > roam
Post a Reply
roam
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States54 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-14 07:39:08
October 14 2010 07:24 GMT
#1
Alright here's a bunch of theorycraft that's been brewing on my mind recently.

Right now, the extensive one base, slower expand play T's have been doing is really a reflection of how long it takes for the other races to get to efficient counters to bio.

To really deal with bio, the other races really need to be on two base and have enough gas to unlock critical techs. After the tech is unlocked, the tables turn and P/Z can mineral dump + gas dump much more efficiently than bio T. In both matchups, MMM (marauder especially) become an inefficient use of minerals/gas compared to ling/baneling and zeal/storm.

I think people are very close to understanding how to safely FE against T bio/1or2base plays, and soon T is really going to have to adjust how they play compositions in longer games. T always risks running out of steam trying to shoehorn aggressive bio play against macro players. Instead this writeup focuses on how to decouple min/gas for T to match other races' efficiency.

I personally favor macro games and push almost every game into 3-4 base; I don't imagine that the game is designed to be won at 1-2 base (with T being at disadvantage after) - game like that will be figured out too quickly, and devolve into RPS with BOs. So this discussion is really with the intent of seeing what T composition should look like off of 3+ base.

--
Note:
Income per base (~800 min/m, ~250 gas/m)

--
TvZ
Once Z makes it to late tier 2, and unlocks all his techs (including speeddrop), bio is no longer viable. Off of a typical reactor FE, you will have something like 1raxTL, 2raxR, 1 facTL, 1 portTL. This is basically what 1.5 base gives you. Let's take a look at what saturating the second base and transitioning to the third base will look like (say we gain another 1k min/m and 500 gas/m).

Basically the only unit that is viable as a mineral dump is the marine because Z can always dump all of his gas immediately into mutas. Marine also happens to be generally decent against everything (lings, roach), and forces the Z to trade gas for minerals through banelings.

You need to match 1 medivac / 8 marines to cover stim costs, and therefore eventually be adding a portR. With the remaining 400 gas or so, you can afford approximately 2 major gas dumps / minute. You already have portTL from earlier, so that's basically adding another factTL. If you are against hydra/roach, then you can just dump the 400-500 into tanks, and plow his ground.

Against ling/baneling/infestor/muta, tanks are really not that great. Combat basically changes into how many marines can Z get with his banelings, and how you can support the remaining marines through what is left. My thoughts include

*You can afford 1 raven / minute + 1 thor/ minute. Raven in crit mass will provide stability against baneling + muta. After being bombed, you can recover the ground by dropping mass turrets; this is really the ideal unit against Z T2. Thor are nice too because they provide a damage sink that roach provide for the Z. You need to last as long as the Z in combat.
*Since the other factTL is not occupied, you can just crank hellions to aoe the lings (marines clean up).
*You can cut one gas unit you don't need to fit in a ghost every once in a while. You will want to EMP the infestors.
*Going late, you will skew more raven if you sense more T2 or air play (BL + corruptor) and not so many ultras. VS faster ultras, if you miss your attack timing, probably skip the raven and just mass up thors from both factTL.

--
TvP
This matchup is really different because if you don't bio, you really can't attack in any reasonable amount of time. P units have too much hp, and require you to really have critical mass to engage on him. It takes 13-14 vikings to one shot a colossus, and 10 tanks to clear out immortal shields.

But, zeal + storm + colo completely deny any 3 base bio play. In fact, P can safely FE with 1gatenex pretty reliably on almost every map. Any allin off one base, can be blocked by some combination of pulling probes + FF, or in the case of banshee allins, cannons.

With bio, there comes a point eventually where P has critical mass colo + storm and just cleans up your army before you can volley. The issue is that zeals also are too cost efficient of a sink against marauder, and P has used his gas much more efficiently than you (medics are not great at killing things).

Here is an example of how poorly bio scales (at one point P has 2k in bank, and is down 50 food, but trivially claws back): http://sc2.replays.net/replay/Sc2Replay.aspx?ReplayID=2200

What's wrong with 111? It's just very slow and defensive. Banshee and tank are both not that strong for pushing out to your natural - P has any number of options to slow you down and make sure he takes his expo, and third faster than you. The fundamental issue is that those early T gas dumps are really vulnerable. If you want to take your expo, and your third at any reasonable pace, you really need to abuse the window before P can reasonably take on your bio army.

But, 1 rax FE (-> 2rax reactorport vs 1 base, or 2 rax banshee sneak vs FE) is not safe on most maps, and requires a PF on the maps it does work on (or will be unable to hold VR 3gate).

Instead, what I've been doing is 1rax FE IN BASE. You get fast reactor on the first rax while adding the second raxTL, and factory. Without factory, you will not be able to deal with VR or colossus openings. The one piece of scouting that you can get reliably (I generally burn a scan when both OC are up) is when/if P expands. If P expands, you can float earlier, and possibly aim for proxy banshee. If P plays one base, you will be blind basically to what he is doing. You need a round of vikings from the port asap. You will be able to push out with stim + medivacs + vikings against any P composition at around 60-70, and land your expansion (should be no later than his) (compare to 111 where depending on build you can be delayed greatly).

I like to add on 2 more raxTL. And take 3rd ASAP, attack and pressure him before charge/colo mass. But at this point the window for bio is closing. With your third up, you will need to finally utilize that factory.

Off each base, you can support 2 hellions, 1 tank, 1 viking. With 3 base, your production looks like 4raxTL, 1-2factR, 2factTL, 1-2portR. You will be able to split production 1/1 marauder/hellion, and gas dump into tank/viking.

There are two critical masses that are important here. You will want to have 8-10 hellion every fight to burn down as many zeals as possible in 1 shot. The other critical mass is 14 vikings to one shot colo. Depending on P production, you should sync your attacks with these numbers.

If you pure hellion, they will get shredded too quickly by mass colo, and you really do need marauder to soak hits from everything. If you just pure bio, then zeal + storm will just deny any sort of advance.

What combat looks like is that you will now be able to trade armies efficiently against P, hellions completely nullify zeal mineral dump. The faster you can clear out zeals, the more time your marauders will have to hitting the stalkers. Tanks need to be targeted on stalkers manually - splash damage will destroy your army if you let them target stray zeals. Whenever you have a comfortable amount of vikings, you can dump gas into dropships instead, but vikings are #1 priority to keep at crit.

Ghost/Raven are small minor boosts to winning fights. With critical tank mass sieged, P won't be able to approach without losing all his shields, so EMP is not amazing. But, a good P will force you to run around and get the jump on you, so EMP is excellent in this capacity - mimicking the initial burst of tanks that you will miss. Raven as well offer you protection against getting jumped.

So the two incredibly efficient min/gas dumps are that P has are under control - zeal by hellion, and mimicking storm with tanks.


----
Some comments about FE vs P:

Against P, I had been doing 1rax FE into bio, but this is really only safe on maps where the natural blocks the main (LT, steppes). Bunker + barrack spam works only against straight up 4 gate play, but you need a more robust FE against the two dangerous one base plays - 1gateVR->3gate (charged VR on rocks/pylon), and 3 gate blink.

To deal with this, you really have to assume you no capacity to scout reliably, other than to see if P has not taken an expo (therefore doing 1base). So my build looked something like 1marine raxTL, 22CC+bunker with 1 marauder (hold aggression on low ground), reaper scout to count gates, swap rax to make reactor and second rax at TL, ebay at 1/2CC, PF when done.

Then you add either more rax or fact + gas, depending what your reaper sees. Against late gates, I would tend to get faster port and a turret at the PF. You will need turret + viking to hold the 2 VR push.

Against the drop/blink plays, you will need marauder marine in your base to chase down the units.

Without PF any FE gets busted simply by 3gateVR. PF allows you to safely cut bunkers and additional rax to speed to viking. It also allows you to leave your expo undermanned to chase units in your base. But since this build isn't really safe on most maps, I've started playing around with just expoing in base (since you won't be saturated anyways) and relying on the choke to hold against 1 base play.

*****
deth
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Australia1757 Posts
October 14 2010 08:42 GMT
#2
While i dont agree with everything you said, this was a great post nonetheless.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiGosaur Monday
01:00
#65
PiGStarcraft538
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft538
Nathanias 51
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 686
Dota 2
monkeys_forever10
League of Legends
C9.Mang0405
JimRising 245
Counter-Strike
taco 242
Foxcn176
rGuardiaN50
minikerr17
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox446
AZ_Axe84
PPMD35
Mew2King31
Other Games
summit1g7475
tarik_tv6328
Day[9].tv443
ViBE163
Maynarde118
XaKoH 108
Ketroc10
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1202
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 78
• davetesta20
• HeavenSC 17
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• Laughngamez YouTube
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21400
League of Legends
• Doublelift5633
Other Games
• Scarra1205
• Day9tv443
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
8h 18m
OSC
9h 18m
Clem vs Cure
ByuN vs TBD
TBD vs Solar
MaxPax vs TBD
Krystianer vs TBD
ShoWTimE vs TBD
Big Brain Bouts
2 days
Serral vs TBD
BSL 21
3 days
BSL 21
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-20
SC2 All-Star Inv. 2025
NA Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W5
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.