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Be forewarned, this may sound a little ranty.
I've been toying with this in my mind for quite a while, and have decided that it's the type of thing that'd be best in a blog. The more and more I play SC2 the more I've grown disappointed with one particular aspect that I think really radiates and affects the entire game.
That is the 3 massive ground units: Colossi, Thor, & Ultralisk. The more I play the more I'm starting to think that these 3 units are holding back Starcraft 2 more than helping the game. It's not that larger units are unfun, BW had the ultralisk and SC2's massive air units are fine (if not underused). But I think that these ground units are a very weak point in SC2's gameplay.
My major issues with these units is four things:
1. The massive ground units lack any interesting interactions with spells.
2. The massive ground units lack any interesting positional concerns.
3. The massive ground units lack any interesting mechanics.
4. The massive ground units create hard and instant transitions and force opponents hard into specific strategies or instantly lose.
Lets take each of these on their own..
1. The massive ground units lack any interesting interactions with spells.
This one is perhaps the most important. The massive units really lack from synergy with spells in SC2. In BW massive units like the Ultralisk still had to be concerned about things like irradiate or would synergize very well with dark swarm and the Reaver could be microed with a shuttle to devastating effect. By comparison SC2 falls flat on this front. The Thor is vulnerable to NP & feedback and the colossi can benefit from FF, but really that's it and even then FF is just universally useful. There doesn't really seem to be anything particular deep or interesting with these massive units and how they work with spells on other units.
2. The massive ground units lack any interesting positional concerns.
This one doesn't really apply that well to the Ultralisk, but it does to the other 2. Colossi especially fall under this due to their ability to move through units. Basically massive ground units are lacking in positional combat skills. Against any player of reasonable skill it's almost impossible to catch colossi out of position, even without any effort on the Protoss' part. A flanked colossi can simply move over their own units to no longer be flanked, likewise with up/down cliffs. Thors are the same way. Since the thor is the damage shield for a Terran's mech army, there's no real catching these units out of position. With a thor it is possible to flank to expose the squishier units, but the massive size of the thor makes this prohibitive. Either the Thors create a strong barrier protecting their units, or their units can move through the spaces between Thors. Anything a Terran army is Thor centric there's usually not any real significant positioning concerns other than getting a good surrounded. Both units, the Thor and the Colossi, are very positioning friendly.
3. The massive ground units lack any interesting mechanics.
This one is pretty straightforward. 250mm is pretty worthless and as such all three massive ground units lack anything other than their auto-attack. This isn't a problem in and of itself, but with the other problems this is an issue. If the units aren't going to have synergy with other units particularly well they should have their own interesting mechanics. The Thor especially falls under this since it has a mechanic (the 250mm cannons), but they're relatively useless.
4. The massive ground units create hard and instant transitions and force opponents hard into specific strategies or instantly lose.
This one in particular applies to the Colossi. The Colossi, and all the massive ground units, essentially create some really absolute transitions and situations. If you cannot deal with the colossi before the opponent gets 2+ or if you cannot seriously injure a zerg before he gets ultralisks then it can be an instant gg. In some respects you can just outmass with lower tech vs these units, but they generally do demand certain things that just feel awakward. From experience I know that ZvP generally feels like a countdown to how ready I can be to deal with colossi before they are fielded in numbers. Likewise with Thors and Ultralisks. I either have an army that can deal with Thors, or I don't and I probably lose. It just doesn't seem to feel like it should. For example if your opponent has templars or banshees it's very dangerous and deadly, but regardless of your composition if you have anything (or anything that can shoot up in the case of banshees) then it's possible to withstand the units through strong play. In the case of the massive units it seems more like either you already have something to deal with them and crush the attack(s), or you just crumble because of how the units play out.
Overall I'm just finding these three units lacking. The ultralisk I can understand to an extent, it's zerg's playstyle to have more straight forward units, but I think the others are really issues that should be addressed. That's not to say I find said units imbalanced, I just find them detrimental to creating exciting SC2 games. It seems like it should be possible to create more interesting dynamics. For example if the Colossi was more dependent on positioning/protecting via warp prisms or other means it could create much better dynamics where it's possible to flank and catch colossi off guard. Likewise if the Thor relied more on 250mm cannon and it's use (as in a rework of the spell to make it interesting) rather than auto-attacks it could become an interesting unit. The Ultralisk would be the hardest to really change, but also the one that pobably needs the least changed. With the splash damage nerf it may be where a massive ground unit should for zerg, it's a potential core late game unit, but doesn't instantly tilt or win battles.
Anyways TLers let me know what you think of the massive ground units. Remember I'm not trying to argue their imbalanced or anything, just that they don't really create an interesting dynamic with the rest of the game (instead they're 1aFTW) and could be so much better.
 
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Not your typical "IMBA FUCK [Insert race/unit]" rant blog, but I certainly agree, at very least with the positional concerns. Particularly Thors and Ultras, because they're so damn big that it can detract from spectacular play. 1 or 2 can completely fill a choke, and it can either crush the opposition(Thor block to save the lives of countless, otherwise helpless marines) or make you hate life(Ultras accidentally block your lings/other ultras from attacking). This really only applies for lower leagues, since that's where the blunders will come in, as with more skill it could make for some pretty pimp plays. In regards to the spell interaction, I do think it's hilarious that Ultras have that passive ability (Frenzied? I could be wrong on the name), and are immune to fungals and all the like. That can change everything, I think that part is awesome.. Just my two cents.
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All the issues you raised have their equivalents in BW, so I don't really hold issue with any of these units. Still, I appreciated the interesting perspective this raised, though I disagree with it, in particular the 250mm cannon. Basically the Yamato Gun from BW.
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10387 Posts
On October 12 2010 12:04 Kimaker wrote:
All the issues you raised have their equivalents in BW, so I don't really hold issue with any of these units. Still, I appreciated the interesting perspective this raised, though I disagree with it, in particular the 250mm cannon. Basically the Yamato Gun from BW.
Are you saying that Yamato Gun is as useless as the Thor's 250mm cannons? LOL
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On October 12 2010 12:04 Kimaker wrote:
All the issues you raised have their equivalents in BW, so I don't really hold issue with any of these units. Still, I appreciated the interesting perspective this raised, though I disagree with it, in particular the 250mm cannon. Basically the Yamato Gun from BW.
Appreciate the feedback, even if you disagree.
Just one thing on Yamato vs 250m. The 250mm is even worse than Yamato because the only real use at the moment for 250mm would be vs Thors or Colossi and Thors are not made often in TvP or TvT (at least not massed). At least in BW BCs were used in TvT so Yamato was an ability that was actually used.
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There is positional concerns with collosi, just not the same as with other units. You have to back them up against vikings, so your stalkers can shoot the vikings, but there's probably a bioball underneath that wants to shoot stalkers, and so positional battle becomes very important in an engagement. Same with zerg if they have corrupters.
And thor's positional problems comes from times when the battle isn't actually going on. Abusing muta mobility means thors might not deal with them so well, since they're slow as balls.
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With regards to spells, I'd say there's at least 1 spell that interacts with each of the large ground units. Emp on thors to prevent feedback, against infestors to prevent parasite and on immortals so they can rip through their non-shielded armour.
With Ultras, you can transfuse with queens and fungal clumped groups so they can happycleavetime.
With Colossus, you can forcefield to create firing lines and cut the opponent's ground army in two. Guardian shield to lower damage, blink stalkers to snipe vikings, Phoenix to hold tank fire off.
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On October 12 2010 13:15 DeckOneBell wrote:
There is positional concerns with collosi, just not the same as with other units. You have to back them up against vikings, so your stalkers can shoot the vikings, but there's probably a bioball underneath that wants to shoot stalkers, and so positional battle becomes very important in an engagement. Same with zerg if they have corrupters.
And thor's positional problems comes from times when the battle isn't actually going on. Abusing muta mobility means thors might not deal with them so well, since they're slow as balls.
That's much of a positional concern. It's simply kiting with your units. It doesn't matter a single bit which angle the corruptors come at. Even if they 'flank' then you can just back into them and pick them off with the stalkers. Vikings and bioballs can put a little more pressure on the opponent, but it's still just a matter of almost just 1aing into them and hoping you can pick them off.
Thors can block areas, and you can abuse their mobility in certain situations, but that's it. And really there's not much mobility to abuse ZvT (where thors are most commonly used) unless you are trying to force mutas vs Thors.
Even with these concerns you bring up, it really doesn't change the fact that these are incredibly stale and boring units. I've never really seen a situation where I felt like interesting micro has formed to make use of or deal with these units. Even the somewhat micro things such as NP on Thors is less impressive and more of Zergs counter to mass thors they're expected to do. I find these units, the Thor and Colossi in particular to just be this mathematical ball of force that you throw out and it has the effect of saying, "If you don't have enough stuff or have this particular thing you lose." All other units, even just throwing out mmm or gateway units feels more dynamic and involved than just 'big ball of death' like colossi and thors are.
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On October 13 2010 02:27 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 13:15 DeckOneBell wrote:
There is positional concerns with collosi, just not the same as with other units. You have to back them up against vikings, so your stalkers can shoot the vikings, but there's probably a bioball underneath that wants to shoot stalkers, and so positional battle becomes very important in an engagement. Same with zerg if they have corrupters.
And thor's positional problems comes from times when the battle isn't actually going on. Abusing muta mobility means thors might not deal with them so well, since they're slow as balls. That's much of a positional concern. It's simply kiting with your units. It doesn't matter a single bit which angle the corruptors come at. Even if they 'flank' then you can just back into them and pick them off with the stalkers. Vikings and bioballs can put a little more pressure on the opponent, but it's still just a matter of almost just 1aing into them and hoping you can pick them off.
How can you actually believe yourself when you say things like that?? PvT with those units is 1A-ing?? Are you serious???
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On October 12 2010 12:43 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 12:04 Kimaker wrote:
All the issues you raised have their equivalents in BW, so I don't really hold issue with any of these units. Still, I appreciated the interesting perspective this raised, though I disagree with it, in particular the 250mm cannon. Basically the Yamato Gun from BW. Are you saying that Yamato Gun is as useless as the Thor's 250mm cannons? LOL
When you think about the amount of times, or the circumstances under which Yamato Gun was actually used, yes. Clearly not having to deal the damage over time makes it a better spell than the 250mm cannon, but as for use...I can think of like 2 circumstances where Yamato was "regularly" used, Ultra-late game TvT occasionally, and Ultra-late game TvZ occasionally. Note the "occasionally's".
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But whenever you saw BCs being heavily involved you always, always saw yamato. Basically whenever you were committing to BCs you always got and used yamato. There's only one game that I can think of at the moment where BCs were seen but yamato never used is Sea vs Jaedong on Andromeda, and that was because Sea was planning on only making two BCs to fuck with Jaedong in the midgame. Your argument that you rarely saw yamato is a misrepresentation of the viability of the ability as the primary and only reason yamato isn't seen often isn't because of the ability itself but rather because the unit that uses the ability is one that isn't seen often, even if it is powerful.
On the other hand, Thors are seen far more often than BCs have in BW, and you rarely see 250mm being used (I've never seen it). The rarity of seeing 250mm isn't because Thors aren't seen often but because the ability sucks.
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I think they just look ridiculous and that's the thing that botheres me . The design concept of a unit like the Thor is just... boring. A big robot that shoots air and ground and doesn't have to be babysit.
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I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.
1. The massive ground units lack any interesting interactions with spells. (and units)
One of your examples was the reaver getting microed with shuttles. How is that different from a Thor+Dropship combination? An early Thor can be made sooo much more effective by using a Dropship to carry him around. Same goes for colossi, even though this is not as popular at the moment. Your argument about sentry FF being generally useful also applies to Dark Swarm, no big difference there. Also you forgot to mention Corruption, which is quite useful to deal with massive units (comparable to Irradiate).
2. The massive ground units lack any interesting positional concerns.
I think that position is especially important for massive units. A well positioned Colossus is way more effective than a badly positioned one. Just think about why the range upgrade is sooo important for the Colossus. You can walk them up cliffs to makes it harder to attack them with ground units, but by moving them up a cliff you will usually move them away from you ground army, thus making them vulnerable to air attacks. Colossi are much slower than your average ground unit, you always have to look out for them to have a position in the middle of your army, or they will get sniped. Then the Colossus heavy protoss army without Colossi is well... not much of an army. Your points about the Thor are in itself arguments for big positional concerns, i don't see how they are supposed to support your view of things.
3. The massive ground units lack any interesting mechanics.
How is cliff-walking and being attackable by anti air, while at the same time being a ground unit not an interesting mechanic?
The Thor 250mm cannons haven't seen much use, they are definately a point of concern.
4. The massive ground units create hard and instant transitions and force opponents hard into specific strategies or instantly lose.
You also have situations like that in BW. You HAVE to get Vessels out to deal with Lurkers+Dark Swarm when playing ZvT. etc.
I would write more but i have to go to uni now.
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@101FTP
1. One of my points is the popularity of such things is lacking and there's no indication that it will change in the future. Dropships are rarely used with Thors now, it's generally seen as no longer viable. Thor's primary use is ZvT in which they are used as general shock troops, not as a cutesy unit. Medivacs also cost 100gas which makes the strategy impractical and there's a large hp disparity between medivacs and thors (so the Thor is safer on the ground if the enemy has anything that can shoot up). For colossi you can use a dropship to great effect, but it's not really worth it. In BW a shuttle has 40hp more than a reaver meaning that the reaver in the shuttle was generally safer than being on the ground. Meanwhile in SC2 the colossi has over double the HP of the warp prism and much more ground mobility. So it makes less economical sense to invest in the warp prism. Corruption is a pretty worthless spell. It's not comparable at all to irradaite. Corruption has nothing special, it's just +20% dmg. Irridate had all sorts of interactions or tactics that could be used to affect how well it works. Likewise darkswarm is kinda like FF, you're right, but it's still much more generic since FF just helps out overall while dark swarm specifically worked with melee units.
2. The thing about colossi is they're only a single easy click away from being in the right position. Colossi 'slow' is actually not that slow... they're the same speed as unupgraded zealots, hydras off creep, unupgraded roaches off creep, unstimmed marines, and unstimmed marauders. It's not at all like other positional units such as hydras, tanks, or even stalkers in a stalker/zealot ball. If you catch those units out of position you get a very strong reward for your better flanking and positioning. If you catch colossi slightly out of position it's difficult to draw much reward as long as the other player is good and paying attention since they can walk into their army at 2.25 speed without any real bumping or pushing of other units.
3. It's not interesting because what does it matter? Vikings can have somewhat interesting play vs colossi with their 9 range, but that's the closest it gets. It's not that interesting because it doesn't open up any cool positional or flanking for zerg and protoss at least. They can opt to make some air units to damage colossi, but so what? The colossi's interesting mechanics are marginally interesting, but it doesn't make the unit special at all. Cliff walking means that colossi can take short cuts, or get into defensive positions easierly. It's not like reapers where they constantly manipulate and abuse cliffs as almost entire mechanic of the unit. Colossi are incredibly strong units that oh yeah can also go up and down cliffs. If colossi couldn't go up and down cliffs they'd still be almost 100% as useful... beyond getting stuck everywhere.
4. The difference to me is that one is more centered around getting a certain ability or something with a bit of versatility. Maybe it's just the Zerg side of things, but generally countering the massive units hinge on either something with 0 versatility, or just trying for an inefficient overwhelming. For example if I get NP it has almost 0 versatility vs anything they'd have at that time, but Thors. If I get corruptors for colossi they have 0 use beyond killing those colossi (literally, they can't hit anything else). If I have a science vessel it's at least detection, irradiate, and everything else. More importantly it's not like you pull out 1 corruptor to take out colossi, you have to have a large # if you go that route which is what makes the transition awkward. It's probably less so for Terran who can use viking's range to help vs the colossi.
EDIT another thing that I find really to be a factor with these units is their train time. At 6 population their long train times are actually quite efficient for the # of pop you fill up. A reaver, for example is 17.5s/pop in training while a colossi without chronoboost is 12.5s/pop. The same holds true for the ultralisk and thor and applies even when comparing to SC2 units. I think this really opens up the potential for these units to be used they way they are currently, as more of part of the attack ball rather than a specialist force multiplier. This isn't necessarily bad I suppose, but just something interesting of note. I was surprised to see the 4 pop brood war units have similar train times to their 6 pop counterparts.
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For me it all comes down to limitations of players.
NP can be used on Ravens too but Zergs don't use burrow enough yet for Terrans to make even 1 Raven and games end too often after the 1st Thors move out.
NP can also be used on Medivacs, it's even better than FG because fungal'd Medivacs can still load, unload, heal and fly out of range of anything that can shoot up but is limited by cliffs and other terrain.
It's similar with stuff made primarily against Colossi - Zergs don't use burrow enough yet so it doesn't really matter if there is any Observer being alive or not. Zerg don't care to really spread creep most of the time too.
Warp Prisms used for instant reinforcements and harassment have yet to be seen?
And if Corruptors are useless against anything else it's only until you can morph them into Brood Lords.
But yeah I'd like to see them have different, more exciting ability.
In PvT positioning matters when Stalkers have no Blink, Vikings hover over impassable terrain (for example on Scrap Station) or Protoss doesn't feel confident enough to engage what Terran has right behind Vikings. Protoss that has to retreat automaticly loses some of his Colossi to Vikings - this is where I would like to see (speed) Warp Prisms to be used too, used to save slower units in an retreating army.
And maybe they will be seen carrying Colossi because even though Colossi are so mobile, you don't really see them walking up cliffs and harassing workers unless you have all of your other units somewhere nearby. They are too slow.
Thors hit air and ground and get a free stim every 150 energy. Before I will think about it being worthless, I want to see someone care to use it in close situations. So far it looks more like "I a-move and my Thors die or they don't". That's one extremely sophisticated mindset 
I have no idea how 250mm upgrade can be made more interesting unless Thors are rebalanced in sort of Brood War way - overall they are nerfed but 250mm canons are made overpowered.
That sounds gimmicky to me TBH.
What are your other ideas?
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I don't know that I really have many ideas.
I'd love to see more dropship micro/play with the massive units but I really don't think that's going to happen. It seems like it's just as viable as BW, but really that's overlooking an important part. Loading up a dropship with a massive unit is taking a ton of hitpoints and putting it into something with very little hitpoints. In BW you're taking a 4 pop unit and putting it in a dropship that has an almost comparable amount of hp. The change, imo, really swings the risk/reward factor more on the side of risk than reward. This is doubly true as you also now only fit 6 pop in a dropship vs 8 population possible with the 4 pop units that took up 1/2 a dropship.
I also have no idea how you'd alter 250mm, but that would be my choice of change to the Thor personally. It's tricky because with Thors being primarily a ZvT unit that's good vs everything great vs nothing (except NP and kinda ultras) there's nothing you could really do to 250mm that seems like it'd fit well.
Ultras I'm the most lost on as they really scream for just more synergy with existing zerg units more so than anything else and I don't know how you'd do that. Ultras right now are just generically strong rather than say being tanky or being heavy damage dealers. It's of course difficult to just make them the damage sponges when you now have roaches and nerfed cracklings so I dunno.
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On October 13 2010 17:29 koreasilver wrote:
But whenever you saw BCs being heavily involved you always, always saw yamato. Basically whenever you were committing to BCs you always got and used yamato. There's only one game that I can think of at the moment where BCs were seen but yamato never used is Sea vs Jaedong on Andromeda, and that was because Sea was planning on only making two BCs to fuck with Jaedong in the midgame. Your argument that you rarely saw yamato is a misrepresentation of the viability of the ability as the primary and only reason yamato isn't seen often isn't because of the ability itself but rather because the unit that uses the ability is one that isn't seen often, even if it is powerful.
On the other hand, Thors are seen far more often than BCs have in BW, and you rarely see 250mm being used (I've never seen it). The rarity of seeing 250mm isn't because Thors aren't seen often but because the ability sucks.
That's a pretty valid argument. I can't actually disagree with that now that I think about it, I'd not considered that before. Thanks for actually having a reason and not going, "lol, ur dumb."
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EPT
