• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:42
CEST 04:42
KST 11:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy9[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple2BSL Season 2312Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon101Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser
Tourneys
2026 GSTL GRAND FINALS Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) 2026 GSTL Announcement
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 544 Double Trouble The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses Mutation # 542 The Ascended
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder BSL Season 23 PLAYzone Challenge - open offline tour in Prague SC4ALL II: Brood War Player Announcement 4/4 screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro8 Day 2 [IPSL] IPSL is Back With Winter 26-27! PLAYzone Challenge - open offline tour in Prague [ASL22] Ro16 Group D
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Diablo IV EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Artificial Intelligence Thread All you football fans (soccer)!
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Violent-Cooperative Play and…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7729 users

[SC2] BW feeling ZvT Build Idea

Blogs > Impervious
Post a Reply
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4222 Posts
September 23 2010 06:58 GMT
#1
This is no solid Build Order, which is why I labeled it as an "idea".....

I tried a few games as Z (somewhere around 30). The first 3 or 4, I tried using Queens. I hated it..... But I wanted to come up with some kind of non-cheese build idea that would be safe, and get me to the mid/late-game, as well as give me some aggressive options.

I thought - A Queen with perfect injections is basically the equivalent of 1 and a bit Hatcheries worth of Larvae.

Unfortunately, I was always attempting a speedling into 2 hatch muta style, for map control..... I wanted to play it a lot like I would play BW - use Speedlings to get map control, tech to Spire, hold off the timing push with D structures, then harass with the Mutas when I fend off the push, then gain complete map control, while I expand. When I was doing this with queens, I found that I had a lot of excess larvae or energy on my queens..... And I hated having to go back every 25 seconds to inject again.....

So I decided to stop using Queens (this was actually about 2 days before Day[9]'s No Queen daily - no joke).

Of course, I still wanted to open with fast speedlings, but I found this left me open to mass Hellion and mass Reaper strats. So I had to incorporate a Roach Warren. I worked on the timings for this quite a bit, until I got it right (you do have to hold them back with Speedlings for a bit if it is an insanely fast rush, but any earlier really hurts your economy). I also wanted to fast expand. The timing works out great if you don't make a queen, believe it or not.

Of course, a friend of mine decided to go for a fast Marine/Hellion drop once, and it completely destroyed me, since my Defenses were caught out of position..... To get around that, I realized that I need to scout with an Overseer. Contaminate the Starport is the goal, but even knowing what type of thing is coming is completely necessary for Z. Even if I can't contaminate it, I can spend 300 minerals on Spine Crawlers in my main as well, and be relatively safe, while still giving me time to actually have them build before the arrival of the drop.

I've been demolished by giant M/M/M balls on a few occasions, making me realize that I need some Infestors for FG before I can safely tech to Hive for Ultras.

Once I get 3+ bases, I then tech to Ultras, getting upgrades and other unit producing structures as needed.

Summed up, this is incredibly gas heavy. The basic build order (for the first ~20 supply, since things are going to change as you adapt to what they do) is here:

+ Show Spoiler +
NO QUEENS!!!!!

10/10 - Overlord
13/18 - Extractor
13/18 - Spawning Pool
15/18 - 6 Zerglings, Metabolic Boost, remove 2 Drones from Extractor
18/18 - Hatchery, Overlord
17/18 - 2 Zerglings
18/18 - Extractor
~20/26 - Roach Warren - Put drones back on Extractor
@ 100 gas - Lair
@ 100% Hatchery - 1 Spine Crawler, transfer 6+ drones.
Make more Spine Crawlers, Zerglings, and Roaches as needed. Power as many drones as possible.
@ 100% Lair - Spire, Overseer, Extractors at nat. Scout with Oversseer. If there is a starport, Contaminate it.
Inbase Hatchery @ 300 excess minerals (or now would be the time for a Queen, if you wanted to make Queens).

When scouting with the Overseer, make some kind of feint attack with the Zerglings, to draw any Marines towards his ramp, allowing you to get in and likely still get out with the Overseer.

After I get ~12 Mutalisks, put down 2 Evolution Chambers, start researching upgrade for Air as well. Put down Baneling Next, Infestor Pit, and expand (getting both geysers asap).

Tech to Ultras or Broodlords, staying on mainly Muta/Ling/Bling/Roach/Infestors. If they go heavy air, use Corruptors as well. Grab 4th+ base, and add inbase hatcheries as needed (usually not needed).


This entire build is designed to get as much gas as possible, and the tech options to counter what your opponent is doing. This means you need to scout really well. It is also really easy to macro, since there are no queens (it can still be done with queens, but to get this stuff so quick, you need to delay the queens by a long time). Because the main units are fast, creep spreading is not as much of an issue either. Adding in a Nydus Network is also doable, but I prefer to keep the Mutas floating around, harassing wherever possible instead.

This build feels a lot like BW - Expanding a lot, with speedlings into Mutas (having to hold off a timing push), which then harass until they get the right counter to the mutas (usually marine/thor), to which you get the counter to them (instead of lurkers, you get Infestors and/or banelings), and then head to hive tech (broodlords instead of guardians or ultras, but no defilers). I feel like I am in control of the match, the entire time. And every loss so far has been completely preventable, if I responded right (which is easier said than done, I realize, but the more I analyze it, the more I can predict this type of stuff and make changes to take it into consideration).

And, this is not against some dumb opponents. This is against some mid diamond T players (400 to 1000 pts). I'm somewhere around the same level, with my primary race (T).....

I'm still in the process of refining it as well.

And this is in Blogs because its probably a terrible idea. It's definitely not deserving of a spot in the Strategy section.....

It also made me realize how much I missed 2 of the BW units..... The Lurker, and the Scourge.....

~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
September 23 2010 07:08 GMT
#2
Doesn't this die to banshees? That's the primary purpose of building queens over hatches - safety from air. Perhaps you could panic some spores up while hoping to god your spire finishes but it's going to put you awfully behind.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
September 23 2010 07:10 GMT
#3
Only problem I see already is how to defend against banshee harass as no queens nor spores. Unless you timed it so that mutas and overseer is out exact time when banshee is coming.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4222 Posts
September 23 2010 07:13 GMT
#4
I didn't have a problem the one time I faced it (the overseer was there to contaminate his starport before the banshee finished). Proxy starports would be a problem though.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4222 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-23 07:14:47
September 23 2010 07:14 GMT
#5
Crap..... Now I gotta figure out a way of dealing with proxy starports..... And I haven't had to face 2 port banshees either.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Invictus
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Singapore2697 Posts
September 23 2010 08:43 GMT
#6
You're gonna have a lack of creep in this build =/
Lee Jaedong Fighting!
trevabob
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom350 Posts
September 23 2010 09:25 GMT
#7
On September 23 2010 17:43 Invictus wrote:
You're gonna have a lack of creep in this build =/


Did you read the OP? He does address this issue
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4222 Posts
September 23 2010 16:53 GMT
#8
On September 23 2010 17:43 Invictus wrote:
You're gonna have a lack of creep in this build =/

If I had another 100 APM, using a couple of Queens for injections and making a bunch of tumors to spread them around would be doable..... Sadly, I'm stuck with my ~80-90 in-game apm (not sure what that translates to, probably around 120-130 real-time apm).

I'm still not sure how to deal with 2 port..... I can probably contaminate 1 of them, if they're in his base, and if I scout really well, I might be able to find any proxy starports and shut them down with speedlings..... But I'm not sure how to deal with 2 port..... 2 spore crawlers at each base, while I contaminate 1 of his starports may give me enough time to get the mutas out..... Will have to test that.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 18m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 148
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 11644
Artosis 774
Noble 19
Terrorterran 6
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm192
febbydoto53
Counter-Strike
taco 518
Other Games
summit1g8868
C9.Mang0308
ToD182
Maynarde166
ViBE163
WinterStarcraft137
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Afreeca ASL 301
Other Games
BasetradeTV36
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 90
• mYiSmile112
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo690
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 18m
WardiTV Invitational
8h 18m
Korean StarCraft League
1d
CranKy Ducklings
1d 7h
AI Arena Tournament
1d 14h
GSL
2 days
Yamato Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Soma vs Jaedong
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Leta vs Soulkey
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Calamity Invitational
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.