• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 01:52
CET 07:52
KST 15:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book16Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14
Community News
ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0222LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)37Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker11PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar)15
StarCraft 2
General
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Terran Scanner Sweep Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win
Tourneys
StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16) SC2 AI Tournament 2026 PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 512 Overclocked Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth
Brood War
General
Which units you wish saw more use in the game? TvZ is the most complete match up Ladder maps - how we can make blizz update them? ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/02 StarCraft player reflex TE scores
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Diablo 2 thread ZeroSpace Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Search For Meaning in Vi…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2439 users

[SC2] BW feeling ZvT Build Idea

Blogs > Impervious
Post a Reply
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4215 Posts
September 23 2010 06:58 GMT
#1
This is no solid Build Order, which is why I labeled it as an "idea".....

I tried a few games as Z (somewhere around 30). The first 3 or 4, I tried using Queens. I hated it..... But I wanted to come up with some kind of non-cheese build idea that would be safe, and get me to the mid/late-game, as well as give me some aggressive options.

I thought - A Queen with perfect injections is basically the equivalent of 1 and a bit Hatcheries worth of Larvae.

Unfortunately, I was always attempting a speedling into 2 hatch muta style, for map control..... I wanted to play it a lot like I would play BW - use Speedlings to get map control, tech to Spire, hold off the timing push with D structures, then harass with the Mutas when I fend off the push, then gain complete map control, while I expand. When I was doing this with queens, I found that I had a lot of excess larvae or energy on my queens..... And I hated having to go back every 25 seconds to inject again.....

So I decided to stop using Queens (this was actually about 2 days before Day[9]'s No Queen daily - no joke).

Of course, I still wanted to open with fast speedlings, but I found this left me open to mass Hellion and mass Reaper strats. So I had to incorporate a Roach Warren. I worked on the timings for this quite a bit, until I got it right (you do have to hold them back with Speedlings for a bit if it is an insanely fast rush, but any earlier really hurts your economy). I also wanted to fast expand. The timing works out great if you don't make a queen, believe it or not.

Of course, a friend of mine decided to go for a fast Marine/Hellion drop once, and it completely destroyed me, since my Defenses were caught out of position..... To get around that, I realized that I need to scout with an Overseer. Contaminate the Starport is the goal, but even knowing what type of thing is coming is completely necessary for Z. Even if I can't contaminate it, I can spend 300 minerals on Spine Crawlers in my main as well, and be relatively safe, while still giving me time to actually have them build before the arrival of the drop.

I've been demolished by giant M/M/M balls on a few occasions, making me realize that I need some Infestors for FG before I can safely tech to Hive for Ultras.

Once I get 3+ bases, I then tech to Ultras, getting upgrades and other unit producing structures as needed.

Summed up, this is incredibly gas heavy. The basic build order (for the first ~20 supply, since things are going to change as you adapt to what they do) is here:

+ Show Spoiler +
NO QUEENS!!!!!

10/10 - Overlord
13/18 - Extractor
13/18 - Spawning Pool
15/18 - 6 Zerglings, Metabolic Boost, remove 2 Drones from Extractor
18/18 - Hatchery, Overlord
17/18 - 2 Zerglings
18/18 - Extractor
~20/26 - Roach Warren - Put drones back on Extractor
@ 100 gas - Lair
@ 100% Hatchery - 1 Spine Crawler, transfer 6+ drones.
Make more Spine Crawlers, Zerglings, and Roaches as needed. Power as many drones as possible.
@ 100% Lair - Spire, Overseer, Extractors at nat. Scout with Oversseer. If there is a starport, Contaminate it.
Inbase Hatchery @ 300 excess minerals (or now would be the time for a Queen, if you wanted to make Queens).

When scouting with the Overseer, make some kind of feint attack with the Zerglings, to draw any Marines towards his ramp, allowing you to get in and likely still get out with the Overseer.

After I get ~12 Mutalisks, put down 2 Evolution Chambers, start researching upgrade for Air as well. Put down Baneling Next, Infestor Pit, and expand (getting both geysers asap).

Tech to Ultras or Broodlords, staying on mainly Muta/Ling/Bling/Roach/Infestors. If they go heavy air, use Corruptors as well. Grab 4th+ base, and add inbase hatcheries as needed (usually not needed).


This entire build is designed to get as much gas as possible, and the tech options to counter what your opponent is doing. This means you need to scout really well. It is also really easy to macro, since there are no queens (it can still be done with queens, but to get this stuff so quick, you need to delay the queens by a long time). Because the main units are fast, creep spreading is not as much of an issue either. Adding in a Nydus Network is also doable, but I prefer to keep the Mutas floating around, harassing wherever possible instead.

This build feels a lot like BW - Expanding a lot, with speedlings into Mutas (having to hold off a timing push), which then harass until they get the right counter to the mutas (usually marine/thor), to which you get the counter to them (instead of lurkers, you get Infestors and/or banelings), and then head to hive tech (broodlords instead of guardians or ultras, but no defilers). I feel like I am in control of the match, the entire time. And every loss so far has been completely preventable, if I responded right (which is easier said than done, I realize, but the more I analyze it, the more I can predict this type of stuff and make changes to take it into consideration).

And, this is not against some dumb opponents. This is against some mid diamond T players (400 to 1000 pts). I'm somewhere around the same level, with my primary race (T).....

I'm still in the process of refining it as well.

And this is in Blogs because its probably a terrible idea. It's definitely not deserving of a spot in the Strategy section.....

It also made me realize how much I missed 2 of the BW units..... The Lurker, and the Scourge.....

~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
September 23 2010 07:08 GMT
#2
Doesn't this die to banshees? That's the primary purpose of building queens over hatches - safety from air. Perhaps you could panic some spores up while hoping to god your spire finishes but it's going to put you awfully behind.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
September 23 2010 07:10 GMT
#3
Only problem I see already is how to defend against banshee harass as no queens nor spores. Unless you timed it so that mutas and overseer is out exact time when banshee is coming.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4215 Posts
September 23 2010 07:13 GMT
#4
I didn't have a problem the one time I faced it (the overseer was there to contaminate his starport before the banshee finished). Proxy starports would be a problem though.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-23 07:14:47
September 23 2010 07:14 GMT
#5
Crap..... Now I gotta figure out a way of dealing with proxy starports..... And I haven't had to face 2 port banshees either.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Invictus
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Singapore2697 Posts
September 23 2010 08:43 GMT
#6
You're gonna have a lack of creep in this build =/
Lee Jaedong Fighting!
trevabob
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom350 Posts
September 23 2010 09:25 GMT
#7
On September 23 2010 17:43 Invictus wrote:
You're gonna have a lack of creep in this build =/


Did you read the OP? He does address this issue
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4215 Posts
September 23 2010 16:53 GMT
#8
On September 23 2010 17:43 Invictus wrote:
You're gonna have a lack of creep in this build =/

If I had another 100 APM, using a couple of Queens for injections and making a bunch of tumors to spread them around would be doable..... Sadly, I'm stuck with my ~80-90 in-game apm (not sure what that translates to, probably around 120-130 real-time apm).

I'm still not sure how to deal with 2 port..... I can probably contaminate 1 of them, if they're in his base, and if I scout really well, I might be able to find any proxy starports and shut them down with speedlings..... But I'm not sure how to deal with 2 port..... 2 spore crawlers at each base, while I contaminate 1 of his starports may give me enough time to get the mutas out..... Will have to test that.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 8m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 165
ProTech28
StarCraft: Brood War
sorry 215
ToSsGirL 84
League of Legends
JimRising 755
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King150
Other Games
C9.Mang01239
summit1g1129
RuFF_SC287
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick875
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 62
• Sammyuel 6
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1516
• Stunt672
• HappyZerGling155
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 8m
Wardi Open
5h 8m
Monday Night Weeklies
10h 8m
OSC
17h 8m
WardiTV Winter Champion…
1d 5h
PiGosaur Cup
1d 18h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
PiG Sty Festival
3 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
Epic.LAN
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-14
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: King of Kings
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round Qualifier
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round Qualifier
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.