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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
For the people interested it is more of a sum-up than a complete guide though and they should invest time reading more on the subject. I just want to add, that most of it can be rephrased as : "Be charismatic". And it does not apply to work but everything in life (confidence for dating for example). Though, again, the specific tips are right on. Approved. | ||
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Muff2n
United Kingdom249 Posts
Please could you expand this point as I will find it particularly informative? edit: I have read your p1 reply and can understand the advantages, but its just not my character to enguage in this activity. What advice do you have to 'get the ball rolling' and start promoting yourself? Thanks. Other than that I can only add that you have the interview process spot on. My advice to people would be to practice this stuff. I failed my first XX interviews due to lack of confidence, etc. If you have a careers service you can go to, get a practice interview! Once I became more confident performing in front of an interview, the job offers came. It was very hard and depressing before then however. Rejected, no reasons, no feedback tt. | ||
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geometryb
United States1249 Posts
2. Do a good job try to get into groups or attach to a manager with a lot of interesting and important projects underneath him. Make sure you get whatever you need to do a good job and make sure to produce quality products. self-promotion isn't really going to make up for poor or uninteresting work. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
I will expand on this idea a little later tonight hopefully and throw something up here on the blog about it. I'll try to go over the idea itself and some of the reservations about it, as well as focusing on some of the ways you can overcome this feeling, and some additional examples of ways to do it in a more "humble" way. I will probably make it a new post, but will link to it from this post so you know it's up. I really want to reiterate that it is absolutely super important so finding a way to do it that fits your personality type is crucial. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
I am still reading through the thread so maybe you touch on this again, but the point I found most difficult to implement is bringing up relevant information that you've found out about the company. Even when I gather a few facts about the company, I find it difficult to incorporate it naturally into the interview process or into a relevant question. I appreciated the specific example you gave. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
On September 22 2010 09:42 Sabu113 wrote: As someone who has just started looking for a job and has just started interviewing, I really appreciated the detail and thought you put into this post. Thank you. I am still reading through the thread so maybe you touch on this again, but the point I found most difficult to implement is bringing up relevant information that you've found out about the company. Even when I gather a few facts about the company, I find it difficult to incorporate it naturally into the interview process or into a relevant question. I appreciated the specific example you gave. Yeah it's not all useable information, and sometimes you aren't able to find anything you can specifically use to your advantage. Be creative though, there are a lot of things you can find out about a company that you can use. I'll pick an example about a piece of information that is pretty useless: The company just redesigned their website. I can't think of anything much more useless than that, but a question that comes to mind about that is: I noticed you've recently done a website redesign. Was that part of a new marketing campaign or corporate strategy? Anything that shows you're thinking and you know how business works can be useful. Also, check Google for things like press releases etc. Lots of times, companies will do press releases about almost anything to generate free advertising. Another great idea is to check linkedin.com and look up the company or specifically your interviewer's name. You may find that he's linked with people from an organization you do know, and you may find information that way. There's many ways to look for stuff and it's an opportunity to be creative! | ||
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madnessman
United States1581 Posts
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ZenCaser
United States19 Posts
1. The interview Confidence is definitely key. We are looking for someone to solve our current problem. We are not looking to give someone a break or a 'chance'. My disagreement with OP is just that "being well liked" is not superior to being knowledgeable. Your knowledge and expertise didn't get you the interview, and the interview is not merely a social engagement. Your resume claiming this expertise got you an interview, so you can demonstrate or elaborate on this knowledge. I like most people I interview. But being liked is a prerequisite, not an alternative strategy. Yes, if you are extremely experienced and knowledgeable, but we sense any personality difficulties, you are on shaky ground (we've been burned badly). Nobody wants to work with a dick, and dicks severely hurt productivity. But you're not dead yet. Alternatively, if you don't know your IF from your ELSE, we can't hire you. However, I admit we can't interrogate an interviewee as fully as we'd like to ensure they know what they're doing - so yeah, give me a winning smile when you give me a vague, ass-covering answer. It will help a lot. Hey, I'm human. After you get the job, being confident, well-liked, but mildly incompetent is a much, much better triad for career growth, than being under-confident, reasonably liked, and very competent. But get the job first. Oh, and under-confident, very competent people still often find very nice niches free of lifelong corporate/political headaches. It's not all doom and gloom, my fellow nerds. 2. Getting ahead The self-promotion part is the bane of many nerds' professional existence. But I've seen it work and I am much more cynical than OP. I've seen a guy come in, and essentially say, "Hey, I'm awesome and I'm lighting this place on fire." Then, a couple days later, I heard a couple pointy-haired bosses discussing this person, "Hey, that guy's really lighting this place on fire!". This is nearly verbatim. It was darkly awesome to witness. The downside of this strategy is if you are a cocky self-promoter, your co-workers will resent and undermine you. It's likely they are justified, and you are, in reality, a detriment to the enterprise. But, if you hit just the right mark, you can be pretty useless and still climb high. However, this is harder work than actually being useful, and probably much more stressful. However, I don't believe my CIO knows just how awesome I am, and I am 90% to blame for this. You need to take control of this. 4. Aim to be 100% right OP, why didn't you tell me this a long time ago! Yes, yes, yes! I tend to use hedges like "I think" all the time. I thought I was reflecting my cautious, thoughtful, non-self-promote-y approach to problem-solving. I was really reflecting a seeming lack of confidence. See Interview #1, above. Your boss wants his problems solved without him having to stress and lose sleep. He needs to know you will take care of it, without his babysitting or oversight. You need to be his expert. "I think" presents him with the need to evaluate your proposal, and he doesn't yet even think of your proposal as a solution, because you didn't tell him it was. You told him it was a nice idea to consider. Instead, "This is how we solve the problem" allows him to tend to other problems, assure *his* boss that everything is well in hand, and leave at 5:30. This isn't cynical; he hired you to do your job so he wouldn't have to. A co-worker pointed out my hedge words to me. I now routinely review emails for hedge phrases like "I think" or "as far as I know", and give them the ban-hammer regardless of how cocky I think the resulting text is. In conversation, I continue to work to remove these hedges. It helps that I actually *am* a relative expert within my team, but that shouldn't stop you from honestly doing your best to present confidence. I will never be, nor advocate quite the "I'm always right!" attitude of OP, but you should find a comfortable goal at least 75% of the way towards that approach. OP is right and going 100% *is* probably more lucrative, but annoying.  Overall, I can't advocate this point of the OP's enough. It is really important, professionally and personally. 5. Dress for the job! On September 20 2010 04:35 Kuo wrote: Is it wrong to ask your boss what is the dress code for working as IT? Like I though there was a golden rule when it comes to working IT with wearing shirt and tie? Yes, it's wrong! You decide yourself how much more you are willing to dress. That's a bit of the point of the OP. I work IT and can dress very, very casually. However, I finally looked up from my cave and noticed that those in higher positions don't dress as casually. It's like a dress code honeypot or sting operation, where those who make the dire error of dressing down to the lowest acceptable level... stay at that level. I phased in a better personal dress code. You should, too. It's just clothing, and slacks aren't really that much less comfortable than jeans. Man up. In fact, often I prefer them. And if you think that clothing reflects your personality and you can't let your free spirit be trampled by The Man... well, yes, if the threads and cloth you wear on your body are a large part of your 'personality', then we probably don't want your vapid 'personality.' [Yes, crappy uniforms excepted - those suck but that's not what we're talking about]. Put yourself in your boss's shoes - would he ever bring you in to explain or demonstrate something to your VP (or let's say, someone two levels above your boss)? Dress in a way that your boss could picture doing that, but don't dress so well, at least overnight, that you look awkward in your team. Slacks, button-down, belt, non-sneakers should do it. Wherever you are right now, whatever job you are currently doing - if you want to stay, and want to grow there, then start phasing in a better wardrobe than is standard for your level. My own 6.: Actually want to get ahead One problem is that many IT nerds don't actually, truly, in their hearts, want to have the responsibilities of those above them. Corporate budgets, HR headaches, meaningless and vague strategy initiatives... blech. IT do-ers get to solve logic puzzles all day using specialized expertise. Managers, etc., don't. Some people like this, or can effectively fake it. Either learn to fake it, or find that promotion that will still make you happy. Better yet, create one! This is often wildly possible. I'm doing that successfully myself. The point is, however, that people can smell it when you're not really "into it". It also shows in your enthusiasm. I found that a desire to create a better work environment for myself and my beloved co-workers, produced by superior decision-making (my decisions!), was the motivation I needed to stop poorly faking it, and "smell" like a true up-and-comer. Also, I really like money. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
I will still slightly disagree with you about the interview process. I've been on both ends of the interview table many times, and it sounds like you have as well. If I'm interviewing someone, I'm looking obviously for several things in an applicant, and your knowledge is definitely one of them. What is infinitely more important to me personally are three things: 1. Do you have a good attitude 2. Are you going to be easy to work with 3. Will you fit in with your coworkers Absolutely regardless of your knowledge, if you don't absolutely knock these three points out of the park, I'm not inviting you back. I will take the guy with 7/10 on the knowledge scale who nails those three things over the guy who is 10/10 and only hits 2/3 of the above every single time. Maybe this is just personal preference, but I really think that if an applicant fails one of those three tests, he isn't the best choice regardless of level of skill/knowledge. Let me say though that this assumes that the people I'm interviewing at least have close to the level of skill required. Obviously if you are the nicest person on the planet but you generally do not have the skills required to do the job, it's not going to work either. I'm going to make sure what you've said in your resume is accurate, and that you've represented yourself correctly from a skill-level perspective, but then after that it's all about organizational "fit", attitude and ease of coexistence. That aside, great post and thanks for contributing! | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
On September 22 2010 12:10 madnessman wrote: I prefer this business blog to some of those other business blogs out there *cough cough*... The OP is informative and written in an unassuming and accessible way. And I'm typing this at IBM while taking a break from shitty administration and databasing assignments. Thanks! It was my first post of this type, maybe I will write some more based on the feedback. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
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Apocalyptic
United States131 Posts
Food for thought... | ||
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ZenCaser
United States19 Posts
On September 22 2010 13:37 babolatt wrote: I will take the guy with 7/10 on the knowledge scale who nails those three things over the guy who is 10/10 and only hits 2/3 of the above every single time. Okay, yes, I agree with these numbers. A lot of knowledge holes can be filled in a year or two's time. Being a jerk? That's an unlearn-able skill. In fact, we had a guy in here two weeks ago with oodles of experience and knowledge, but I passed on him. He was a bad fit. However, it is certainly very important, especially to my boss, but also to myself, that I assess a candidate's skill. So, if the question is "what are important qualities to look for in a candidate", then you and I are probably in moderate-to-strong agreement. But if the question is "what are interviewers going to judge you on", as is the thrust of your OP, then I contend that it is very important to be able to back up your resume with detailed discussion, showing fluid and extemporaneous knowledge and comfort with the subject matter. Sitting ten yards away from me is a pleasant, but shy and poor "social" interviewee, who we still hired and have been nothing but pleased with. One thing I've learned in the past few years, which is when I have done the bulk of my interviewing, is how poor so many candidates are. Granted, we tend to be looking for experienced and specialized candidates, so the pool is smaller, but sheesh. People, get a suit! Smile! Go over every bullet point in your last couple jobs and be able to tell a story about it. Know what that story is beforehand! And for Pete's sake, have somebody else review your resume and cover letter for typos, misspellings, and grammar. These are nearly immediate show-stoppers. After that, just relax and be confident, and things will improve immensely. Be cocky way, way down deep, as if you're doing us a favor by joining us, and you look forward to solving our problems. Surprisingly, I don't think I mind nervousness too much. It's very understandable. I hope it doesn't, but it may subconsciously. Really, what I've learned is - wow - recession aside, if this is the best recruiters can give us, then I'm not nervous anymore if I have to go out and go on interviews again. Your response to me about being 100% correct is personally interesting. I actually suffer from being neurotic about being 100% correct and thorough before I respond - "[motivation to] be more accurate in your work" is my problem, not my cure! It can be paralyzing, as I spend a lot of time verifying what I'm about to say. What I've learned from your post is the need to believe in my best judgment, given time/resource constraints, but then fire away, and be willing to quickly admit error. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
On September 23 2010 06:43 ZenCaser wrote: Really, what I've learned is - wow - recession aside, if this is the best recruiters can give us, then I'm not nervous anymore if I have to go out and go on interviews again. This a thousand times. Unfortunately (Or fortunately for me from a competitive perspective) the talent pool for technical positions is absolutely horrendous. I don't know if I just expect too much from people, but this is how it looks for me approximately: - I throw out about 85-90% of resumes, maybe even more. - Of those thrown out, about 75% of them are because of GLARING problems like spelling/grammar. If you can't be bothered to put a lot of effort into your resume, it says a lot about you as a perspective employee. - Of the say, 5-10% I may actually interview, honestly 50% are terrible, and another 30% or so are so-so. I'd say out of a stack of 100 resumes, there may be 2-5 people who knock it out of the park. Those numbers are pretty bad. This is part of the reason I wrote this as I've gone through a round of really bad interviews lately and I wanted to potentially help some people because if you write a good resume and interview well, you're going to do better than 95% of the people in the job market. I actually suffer from being neurotic about being 100% correct and thorough before I respond - "[motivation to] be more accurate in your work" is my problem, not my cure! It can be paralyzing, as I spend a lot of time verifying what I'm about to say. What I've learned from your post is the need to believe in my best judgment, given time/resource constraints, but then fire away, and be willing to quickly admit error. Yeah, it's really like an exam in school. Remember how much better you did when you went with your first choice rather than overthinking a question and second-guessing yourself? I honestly think it's the same thing. Trusting your judgement is really important and generally I think people are accurate more often than they think. | ||
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itzme_petey
United States1400 Posts
The golden rule is to hedge your skill sets to stand out. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
On September 23 2010 12:37 itzme_petey wrote: This thread is interesting. The values that make a salesperson successful (assertiveness, appearance, etc) helps propel a very technical IT employee. Whereas, in sales, if you have technical skills with software or programs, then you get propelled quickly. Mostly because at a fundamental level, your ability to sell yourself has a direct impact on how successful you are. As a salesperson if you're too timid, nobody wants to buy what you're selling If you're too aggressive, people get turned off If you're a liar, people will view you as slimy Confidence and product knowledge! It's not about convincing someone that they want something they don't need (unless you're slimy), it's about understanding the client's (your employer's) requirements, and then proposing a solution that best addresses them (your skills). | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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