"Nonsense!" I hear some of you shout out while you read the topic. Manner pylon was something used in BW to annoy your opponent. "Because of new worker AI pathing, and different building sizes, its nearly impossible to pull off", you might say. I am here to show you wrong!
I can feel the hate
But why stop there? Every Protoss knows how to hide your proxy 2-gate in your enemies base, hoping he wont spot it until you overwhelm him with your mighty zealots. But where are your manners? You will not find a classier way of cheesing than doing it where the opponent is most likely to see it: in his mineral line. Yooou, shall not mine!
Picking the cheese to go along with your preferred whine is not always easy. For instance, if you fancy yourself some delicious Zerg whine, your cheese of choice could be some a fresh pylon in his expo. If you prefer the rarer Terran whine, you might need a well prepared cheese, made with the most utmost care and love.
But enough talk! Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, a replay pack of my most recent recipes for delicious delicious cheese.
Oh wow, that 2nd picture gave me a good chuckle. It's great to see players develop these fun strats, hope you have further luck with manner-builds ^_^.
I think I'm in love! Awesome play Edit: just watched the manner gateways. I was literally loling the whole game. And I thought Bisu had the most epic proxy of all time
On September 18 2010 05:06 Hawk wrote: can't watch the reps now, but how doesn't your gate not get placed if the enemy is in the way???
if this works, I will love you. NERDD TEARRRRSSSS
I imagine you make a proxy pylon. he sends four probes to kill it, then u put the gate way in the empty space
Most people send out their workers to kill the pylon right away. This is the time for your master plan to commence.
Got a question....what was your success rate?
Surprisingly high. The gateway one I've only managed once yet, but getting a mannerpylon down in one way or another is not that hard. Most people know to look, and handle, proxy's hidden in their base. But you can really freak them out by doing the exact opposite of what they are expecting.
There are some replays included in the pack showing how to stop it as well, and some of them are quite simple (A cannon for instance stops the entire thing dead in its tracks).
On September 18 2010 05:29 seRapH wrote: um, on the terran one, couldnt he have planted a depot to the bottom left of the pylon? or is that not tight for some reason?
actually, if he just lifted the rax and landed it one matrix to the right it would have been tight lol
Of course. I was actually aiming to make to finish the wall for him. The point here is that he either has the choice of letting my angry zealots inside by destroying the pylon, or let me see everything he's doing.
On September 18 2010 05:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote: how can you EVER put the gateways down? Wouldn't their probes block em continually?
No he's right. Only a really bad player pulls like half his worker to kill the pylon. Everyone who played BW knows that you can't do anything about it. That being said, it'll work on baddies, so pretty much everyone under 1k diamond at minimum.
On September 18 2010 05:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote: how can you EVER put the gateways down? Wouldn't their probes block em continually?
No he's right. Only a really bad player pulls like half his worker to kill the pylon. Everyone who played BW knows that you can't do anything about it. That being said, it'll work on baddies, so pretty much everyone under 1k diamond at minimum.
I dont think anyone was going to take the double manner gateway seriously...
On September 18 2010 05:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote: how can you EVER put the gateways down? Wouldn't their probes block em continually?
No he's right. Only a really bad player pulls like half his worker to kill the pylon. Everyone who played BW knows that you can't do anything about it. That being said, it'll work on baddies, so pretty much everyone under 1k diamond at minimum.
Mannergateways: Not recommended in high-end tournaments. If you do it, however, you'll have my respect for life.
and if you are seriously referring to YOUR comment about him pulling his entire worker force to kill 1 pylon you are gravely mistaken. That would be the biggest overreaction imaginable. That is like me making a blog about sending a first harvester to go attack one of theirs counting on them chasing it with all their workers like the cpu did in BW... not viable.
On September 18 2010 05:57 {88}iNcontroL wrote: and if you are seriously referring to YOUR comment about him pulling his entire worker force to kill 1 pylon you are gravely mistaken. That would be the biggest overreaction imaginable. That is like me making a blog about sending a first harvester to go attack one of theirs counting on them chasing it with all their workers like the cpu did in BW... not viable.
And like 4 post down the OP says "Most people send out their workers to kill the pylon right away. This is the time for your master plan to commence."
On September 18 2010 05:57 {88}iNcontroL wrote: and if you are seriously referring to YOUR comment about him pulling his entire worker force to kill 1 pylon you are gravely mistaken. That would be the biggest overreaction imaginable. That is like me making a blog about sending a first harvester to go attack one of theirs counting on them chasing it with all their workers like the cpu did in BW... not viable.
The game of cheese is about opportunity. You can not plan on making gateways in his mineral line. You can't even plan putting down manner pylons in his mineral line, because a lot of the time his probes are in sync and returns at the same time, leaving no room for a pylon. You have to see the opportunity and you take it.
Some of these replays are of ladder games played at 1k in diamond, so they are technically viable, even at that level. But experienced player will shut down such cheese quite simple (as some of these replays also shows)
On September 18 2010 05:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote: how can you EVER put the gateways down? Wouldn't their probes block em continually?
This right here, if you have a manner pylon and the probes go to attack it, they are still in the way of the gateway space you have between the mineral/nexus. MAYBE if you pull a manner pylon you can get some zealot harass in, but that's about it.
On September 18 2010 05:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote: how can you EVER put the gateways down? Wouldn't their probes block em continually?
This right here, if you have a manner pylon and the probes go to attack it, they are still in the way of the gateway space you have between the mineral/nexus. MAYBE if you pull a manner pylon you can get some zealot harass in, but that's about it.
Watch the replay and see for yourself how the opportunity opened itself
All you need to do is place the pylon a behind the minerals or to the side a bit, when he pulls probes micro your probe in then put down the gateway it seems rather easy, not sure why so many of you are doubting it, and clearly he did it once so it's possible.
On September 18 2010 05:57 {88}iNcontroL wrote: and if you are seriously referring to YOUR comment about him pulling his entire worker force to kill 1 pylon you are gravely mistaken. That would be the biggest overreaction imaginable. That is like me making a blog about sending a first harvester to go attack one of theirs counting on them chasing it with all their workers like the cpu did in BW... not viable.
After seeing this thread I immediately wanted to go manner gateway someone. First game I played was against a plat kid who was 30-16 (it was a custom game). I got the manner pylon down but there was no way I could ever get a gateway down unless he had pulled all of his scvs to kill it. So I just put the gateways behind his minerals and killed him that way.
On September 18 2010 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote: bisu vs pokju 2.0 imo
kinda, I agree, but as incontrol has already said, counting on being able to put your gates IN the mineral line is just not viable. What bisu did was basically a "one time thing" - not viable in general since people are then aware of the possibility. Probe block or anti-manner...
Also, because of the AI in sc2, I don't think manner pylons are as effective as they were in bw. (unless you somehow catch a shit load of probes/scvs somehow, but that shouldn't happen anyway).
On September 18 2010 05:57 {88}iNcontroL wrote: and if you are seriously referring to YOUR comment about him pulling his entire worker force to kill 1 pylon you are gravely mistaken. That would be the biggest overreaction imaginable. That is like me making a blog about sending a first harvester to go attack one of theirs counting on them chasing it with all their workers like the cpu did in BW... not viable.
After seeing this thread I immediately wanted to go manner gateway someone. First game I played was against a plat kid who was 30-16 (it was a custom game). I got the manner pylon down but there was no way I could ever get a gateway down unless he had pulled all of his scvs to kill it. So I just put the gateways behind his minerals and killed him that way.
On September 18 2010 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote: bisu vs pokju 2.0 imo
kinda, I agree, but as incontrol has already said, counting on being able to put your gates IN the mineral line is just not viable. What bisu did was basically a "one time thing" - not viable in general since people are then aware of the possibility. Probe block or anti-manner...
Also, because of the AI in sc2, I don't think manner pylons are as effective as they were in bw. (unless you somehow catch a shit load of probes/scvs somehow, but that shouldn't happen anyway).
Horang2 did it to Nada, so basically it could happen to anybody.
On September 18 2010 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote: bisu vs pokju 2.0 imo
kinda, I agree, but as incontrol has already said, counting on being able to put your gates IN the mineral line is just not viable. What bisu did was basically a "one time thing" - not viable in general since people are then aware of the possibility. Probe block or anti-manner...
Also, because of the AI in sc2, I don't think manner pylons are as effective as they were in bw. (unless you somehow catch a shit load of probes/scvs somehow, but that shouldn't happen anyway).
Horang2 did it to Nada, so basically it could happen to anybody.
The difference being that Nada defended it quite easily and that early bs was only part of a later plan on horang2's part. That Nada went on to losing the game has nothing to do with the manner pylons and gateways. The reason I call it 'not viable' is that you're far from guaranteed an economical advantage by doing it.
OP I did this in 2v2 the other day. Quite hard to get it in the money line, but it is fucking hilarious to hear reactions to double manner gates in base. I love you.
Right before 1.1 there was relatively high rated 2v2 team that basically proxy 2 gated in base with the other guy going 10 rax reaper. Difficult to stop.
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I've actually tried this in a PvP a week ago on steppes. The guy left as soon as I placed the first manner gateway. It probably won't even work half the time but it's great for few laughs.
First off I was really glad to hear that manner pylon was still around in sc2
I watched most of the replays and my conclusion is that you essentially just did an in-base proxy as opposed to manner pylon... also known as horror-gate as mentioned earlier in the thread; my second conclusion is that this would be a fun strat to use against friends irl, but has little viability
Here is some feedback on the replays: It was extremely painful to see many of the players simply not adapt ie. they did not cut workers/pull workers/ try to ward off or kill the "scouting probe"
The 1st replay (a PvP) you actually got 2 gateways in the mineral line... seriously -_-
The 2nd replay (PvP) the toss did somewhat well in defending but continued to produce probes as one would during a normal game... almost literally to the very end -_-; this one was extremely painful since I really fell like he had some good reactions such as plopping down 2 gateways to match production and pulling some probes for defense, although later he ended up pulling his probes when it was too late
In a PvT replay on blistering sands the Terran saw the proxy and yet still tried to complete his wall... I found that perplexing
The PvP vs the teal protoss made me very sad... if you watch it you would be sad too
Overall I feel like your opponents should have adapted better and the cheese could be easily thwarted, but that is just my opinion. Anyways, I liked your post and appreciated the replays.
Just wanted to add that I finished watching all the replays and that I appreciated the OP posting some of his losses... the last replay was kind of ridiculous how much your opponent feared cannons The macro in some of the games made me frustrated... especially since they reminded me of my own play.
I still am of the opinion that proxies should be hidden for better efficacy, and I thought that much of the games could have been easily won without cheese(ie. opponents exhibited less skill)
I should probably have done a better job at answering you fine folks in my own blog, but heres goes:
Most of these are manner pylons because they actually block the probes from mining from that spesific mineral patch, and if I'm lucky, can also wall in a probe between mineral patches. This only works on certain maps (like Steppes of war). On most maps, the mineral patches are so spread out that its impossible.
After patch 1.1, this is no longer possible without some extreme luck and/or extreme micro. Before, you could make a sharp turn with your probe and the chasing worker would skid a bit and lose speed. This would give you more room between the chasers and your probe. After patch 1.1, the chasing worker will now attack, and then resume chasing right away. This problem really shows when the entire workerline starts chasing your probe. One sharp turn, and each worker gets a shot off and instantkill your probe
If you really want to win, hide your proxy. But if you want to be baller, do this
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.home.no/profet/images/Doublemanner.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.home.no/profet/images/Mannergateway.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.home.no/profet/images/Mannerwalled.jpg)
hot
