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Ladder vs Tournaments

Blogs > rastaban
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rastaban
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2294 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-14 18:45:11
September 14 2010 18:44 GMT
#1
On September 14 2010 04:48 Ghazwan wrote:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/789458

Top 20:
#- Name- Race - W/L
1- Select - T - 366/152
2- Fenix - T - 210/94
3- Huk - P - 254/90
4- qxc - T - 205/76
5- Blendio - T - 491/308
6- Murder - T - 188/80
7- Painuser - T - 188/81
8- Silver - T - 233/118
9- TTone - P - 359/186
10- Katari - P - 263/141
11- kOre - Z - 207/104
12- KiWiKaKi - P - 169/60
13- REBUKED - T - 503/368
14- Masq - T - 149/84
15- Gretorp - T - 160/99
16- Stalife - T - 322/199
17- linko - T - 241/171
18 - AlLaboUtyOu - T - 374/275
19- KawaiiRice - T - 153/67
20- HasHe - T - 436/324


15 T, 4 P, 1 Z in top 20.



I am surprised by how many of them I don't recognize. I don't follow all the smaller tournaments, but I would think that some of the top players would be making more of a showing.


1- Select - T - 366/152
2- Fenix - T - 210/94

3- Huk - P - 254/90
4- qxc - T - 205/76

5- Blendio - T - 491/308
6- Murder - T - 188/80

7- Painuser - T - 188/81
8- Silver - T - 233/118
9- TTone - P - 359/186

10- Katari - P - 263/141
11- kOre - Z - 207/104

12- KiWiKaKi - P - 169/60
13- REBUKED - T - 503/368
14- Masq - T - 149/84
15- Gretorp - T - 160/99

16- Stalife - T - 322/199
17- linko - T - 241/171
18 - AlLaboUtyOu - T - 374/275

19- KawaiiRice - T - 153/67
20- HasHe - T - 436/324

I bolded the ones whose names I recognize. Now it is quite possible I am just out of the loop and showing my ignorance but I would think this would mean they would be placing in some of the tournaments with that kind of play.

For reference here is a recent post on tournament winners:
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 14 2010 01:20 cuppatea wrote:
Here's a list of all tournament winners since SC2 was released at the end of July. I've included all of the high level tournaments listed on the Team Liquid and Gosu Gamers tournament results pages (all Zotac, Go4SC2, GosuCoaching, Craft, OpenWolf and Viking cups, as well as all major LANs, invitationals and even a few smaller cups featuring high level players). If you think you should be on the list but aren't, or have won more than is indicated below then post a reply linking to the tournaments you've placed top 2 in and I'll update the OP.

Only tournament winners are listed, with 2nd place finishes used to seperate players with the same number of wins. Obviously a gold medal indicates a first place finish and silver a 2nd.

Also, it's worth noting that due to the small number of Asian tournaments since release (that I'm aware of), there are very few Asian players in the list (only TheStC and Tester).

Tournament winners:

[image loading]MorroW - 12[image loading] 4[image loading]
[image loading]HuK - 7[image loading] 3[image loading]
[image loading]Sjow - 6[image loading] 2[image loading]
[image loading]KawaiiRice - 4[image loading] 3[image loading]
[image loading]Strelok - 4[image loading]
[image loading]Dimaga - 3[image loading] 3[image loading]
[image loading]Socke - 3[image loading] 3[image loading]
[image loading]BratOK - 2[image loading] 2[image loading]
[image loading]MurDeR - 2[image loading] 2[image loading]
[image loading]NaNiwa - 2[image loading] 1[image loading]
[image loading]Drewbie - 2[image loading]
[image loading]Fenix - 2[image loading]
[image loading]Nightend - 2[image loading]
[image loading]Silver - 2[image loading]
[image loading]TheLittleOne - 2[image loading]
[image loading]TheStC - 2[image loading]
[image loading]Kas - 1[image loading] 3[image loading]
[image loading]Naama - 1[image loading] 3[image loading]
[image loading]Cauthonluck - 1[image loading] 2[image loading]
[image loading]KiWiKaKi - 1[image loading] 2[image loading]
[image loading]MaNa - 1[image loading] 2[image loading]
[image loading]Sheth - 1[image loading] 2[image loading]
[image loading]Adel - 1[image loading] 1[image loading]
[image loading]ClouD - 1[image loading] 1[image loading]
[image loading]DeMusliM - 1[image loading] 1[image loading]
[image loading]LastShadow - 1[image loading] 1[image loading]
[image loading]SeleCT - 1[image loading] 1[image loading]
[image loading]WhiteRa - 1[image loading] 1[image loading]
[image loading]GoOdy - 1[image loading]
[image loading]Iefnaij - 1[image loading]
[image loading]PainUser - 1[image loading]
[image loading]QXC - 1[image loading]
[image loading]Sein - 1[image loading]
[image loading]Tester - 1[image loading]
[image loading]Thorzain - 1[image loading]
[image loading]TT1 - 1[image loading]


Tournament wins by race:

[image loading] - 51[image loading]
[image loading] - 22[image loading]
[image loading] - 4[image loading]

Tournament winners by race:

[image loading] - 22[image loading]
[image loading] - 12[image loading]
[image loading] - 2[image loading]


Edit: Updated to include the results from the US Craft Cups.




Does the ladder really show much about a player's tournament skill, I thought it was a better indicator but watching the GSL
GSL ro64 Spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +
where the Top korean ladder player was just run over by PoltPrime
made me suspect that they are more like two separate achievements. Much like comparing sprinting and a Marathon. Sure the top sprinter could easily take on your average joe in a marathon and has some of the same core skill set but he would probably lose by a large margin to someone who specifically trains for that event.

Now which of these skills is better probably depends on the specific player goals. I am not a top player so I don't know for sure what the skill difference is between them but I would think this might be some of them.

Tournament(Assuming bo3 or higher)
You can practice the specific matchup
You can study your opponent
You can give up a game to mess with your opponent ( check out Day[9] discussing using strategies that lose but manipulator your opponent for the second game.)
You need to have more build orders, so you are less predictable
Deal with nerves (goes away after time?)


Ladder
You can play % based builds, it may lose to a cheese move but since only a small % will do it the strat is viable.
You can repeat the same build, since you will be playing different opponents this is more viable.
You will need to be able to play for longer periods of time.
You play a broader array of people so you probably need more flexibility.
Need to have practiced BOs vs all 3 matchups since you don't have a specific opponent.

The TL guys over in korea though talked about doing extensive ladder training, so maybe it is less pronounced than expected. While most top players probably have more than 1 account, if you use it for trying out builds then naturally you will have a lower ranking than if you use it just for specific practiced builds.

One thing that I think will be interesting is if we begin to see trends. In economics there are what are called leading indicators, These are things you can watch to help predict how the economy might continue. I wonder if we might start seeing that people who make it to the top of the ladder can then parlay that into tournament skills. I know I will be looking out for Select and Fenix to see if they start taking tournament wins in the near future.

What do you think, are they related, or do they really need a lot of different skill sets.

Tyler: "...damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!"
RyanRushia
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2748 Posts
September 14 2010 18:54 GMT
#2
i think ladder is an excellent preparation for tournaments in that you can work on developing strategies/timings without having to be in the tournament setting, plus it allows you to play against a much more varied amount of builds

however tournaments are the results that everyone cares bout, no one cares if your rank 1 diamond or w/e if you arent doing anything with it
I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free. | coL.Ryan | www.twitter.com/coL_RyanR
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-14 19:01:00
September 14 2010 18:55 GMT
#3
I know who all of them are except blendio, katari, and allaboutyou. I've seen all of them in tournaments except blendio, katari, allaboutyou, linko, and kore. and im pretty sure kore is letting someone smurf on his account, i can't remember who, a korean i think.


select got top 8 at mlg raleigh.

and i can't believe you don't know who fenix is. he's probably the best player in south america and im pretty sure he already has multiple tournament wins.

i mean... it even shows him with 2 golds in that tournament wins post u referenced


as for the original question.. yes they take difference skillsets. primarily that you have to ALWAYS WIN to win tournaments. you have to have much higher levels of consistency.


buuuut... in general the players at the top of the ladder are still the best players and thus are the ones that will be able to have that consistency.
Jigsetcza
Profile Joined August 2010
United States118 Posts
September 14 2010 19:01 GMT
#4
You guys sure you don't really know who kOre is?

Most people like to practice with a partner that's why they don't have ladder points. Ladder is a good way of measuring skill but it really depends on the time spent playing the ladder+skill.
RyanRushia
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2748 Posts
September 14 2010 19:02 GMT
#5
kore = phoenixwerra
I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free. | coL.Ryan | www.twitter.com/coL_RyanR
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
September 14 2010 19:06 GMT
#6
Tournaments are a better indicator of skill. People like Katari and REBUKED use gimmicky strats on the ladder that work because ladder games are Bo1. The majority of that list, however, is pretty solid. Select and Fenix both play in tournaments, as well as Murder, Stalife, linko, and Hashe. kOre is PhoenixWerra. It's a general consensus that you ladder to get more experience against random strategies in general, and you practice against specific people to play against more "standard" strategies and work on specific situations.
RyanRushia
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2748 Posts
September 14 2010 19:08 GMT
#7
100% agreed w/ saracen...
I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free. | coL.Ryan | www.twitter.com/coL_RyanR
HeyitsClay
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada336 Posts
September 14 2010 19:15 GMT
#8
Lot of people are good but dont really care or have the complete freedom to play in tournaments, i think that a big part of it
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-14 19:18:14
September 14 2010 19:15 GMT
#9
On September 14 2010 04:48 Ghazwan wrote:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/789458

Top 20:
#- Name- Race - W/L
1- Select - T - 366/152
2- Fenix - T - 210/94
3- Huk - P - 254/90
4- qxc - T - 205/76
5- Blendio - T - 491/308
6- Murder - T - 188/80
7- Painuser - T - 188/81
8- Silver - T - 233/118
9- TTone - P - 359/186
10- Katari - P - 263/141
11- kOre - Z - 207/104
12- KiWiKaKi - P - 169/60
13- REBUKED - T - 503/368
14- Masq - T - 149/84
15- Gretorp - T - 160/99
16- Stalife - T - 322/199
17- linko - T - 241/171
18 - AlLaboUtyOu - T - 374/275
19- KawaiiRice - T - 153/67
20- HasHe - T - 436/324


15 T, 4 P, 1 Z in top 20.

I've bolded the ones I don't know. The rest I've seen in tournaments. There's so many tournaments it can be hard to follow. But most of them play. I'm also pretty sure REBUKED has done some, but I don't remember, so I bolded him anyway.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-14 19:20:00
September 14 2010 19:18 GMT
#10
On September 15 2010 04:06 Saracen wrote:
Tournaments are a better indicator of skill. People like Katari and REBUKED use gimmicky strats on the ladder that work because ladder games are Bo1. The majority of that list, however, is pretty solid. Select and Fenix both play in tournaments, as well as Murder, Stalife, linko, and Hashe. kOre is PhoenixWerra. It's a general consensus that you ladder to get more experience against random strategies in general, and you practice against specific people to play against more "standard" strategies and work on specific situations.

but at the same time Hashe is a lot better then how he performs in tournaments. I guess he has tournament jitters which can be an issue for a lot of players(i mean you saw all those threads about people being scared of ladder O_O)

And yea if you dont know who Select of Fenix are you probably arent following tournaments scene besides a very casual outlook.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
rastaban
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2294 Posts
September 14 2010 19:25 GMT
#11
Well it looks like I was showing my noobness by not recognizing some of the better players. What tournaments should I be looking at following for more NA action.

On September 15 2010 04:06 Saracen wrote:
Tournaments are a better indicator of skill. People like Katari and REBUKED use gimmicky strats on the ladder that work because ladder games are Bo1. The majority of that list, however, is pretty solid. Select and Fenix both play in tournaments, as well as Murder, Stalife, linko, and Hashe. kOre is PhoenixWerra. It's a general consensus that you ladder to get more experience against random strategies in general, and you practice against specific people to play against more "standard" strategies and work on specific situations.


It seems like at the top level people begin to face the same players much more often, Wouldn't the second or third time you face a player who uses cheese strats kind of prepare them that it is going to occur. I know watching some of the higher level streamers they can sometimes predict there opponents build just from having laddered vs them before. I would think that over time that would help weed out people who relied too heavily on cheese.
Tyler: "...damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!"
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
September 14 2010 19:27 GMT
#12
On September 15 2010 04:25 rastaban wrote:
Well it looks like I was showing my noobness by not recognizing some of the better players. What tournaments should I be looking at following for more NA action.

Show nested quote +
On September 15 2010 04:06 Saracen wrote:
Tournaments are a better indicator of skill. People like Katari and REBUKED use gimmicky strats on the ladder that work because ladder games are Bo1. The majority of that list, however, is pretty solid. Select and Fenix both play in tournaments, as well as Murder, Stalife, linko, and Hashe. kOre is PhoenixWerra. It's a general consensus that you ladder to get more experience against random strategies in general, and you practice against specific people to play against more "standard" strategies and work on specific situations.


It seems like at the top level people begin to face the same players much more often, Wouldn't the second or third time you face a player who uses cheese strats kind of prepare them that it is going to occur. I know watching some of the higher level streamers they can sometimes predict there opponents build just from having laddered vs them before. I would think that over time that would help weed out people who relied too heavily on cheese.

Indeed it does. That's why people have more than one build.
Pulimuli
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Sweden2766 Posts
September 14 2010 19:29 GMT
#13
SeleCT is gonna be very well known pretty soon im sure, the guy is a beast
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32130 Posts
September 14 2010 19:38 GMT
#14
Totally different animals, much like how tourny and cash game poker are totally different. Bo3 (5 or whaterver) changes the gameplay more than anything

I would love if there was a site where you could just enter random tourneis that go on.... tournaments are so much fun to play in. Far superior to ladder, even if you don't know any of your opponents at all.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
NuKedUFirst
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada3139 Posts
September 14 2010 19:39 GMT
#15
On September 15 2010 04:29 Pulimuli wrote:
SeleCT is very well known, the guy is a beast

He played DoW, Wc3 and BW. He won DoW WCG a few times in Korea I believe. He is well known and is extremely good.
FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I like winning because it validates all the bloody time I waste playing SC2.
drag_
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
England425 Posts
September 14 2010 19:45 GMT
#16
Kore is the baller who runs Starcraft Mecca as well.
Hittegods
Profile Joined April 2007
Stockholm4641 Posts
September 14 2010 19:51 GMT
#17
On September 15 2010 04:45 drag_ wrote:
Kore is the baller who runs Starcraft Mecca as well.

He also runs from the cops
This neo violence, pure self defiance
NukeTheBunnys
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1004 Posts
September 14 2010 20:04 GMT
#18
On September 15 2010 04:51 Hittegods wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2010 04:45 drag_ wrote:
Kore is the baller who runs Starcraft Mecca as well.

He also runs from the cops

after reading that blog, I must say he is quite baller indeed

On topic: I recognize most of the names in the to 20~ from various tournament casts. And while the top tournament players don't take all the top spots, you can defiantly see them representing in the top 25
When you play the game of drones you win or you die.
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
September 14 2010 20:06 GMT
#19
My god, we need better zergs and holy crap that's a lot of domination from Morrow.
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
September 14 2010 20:36 GMT
#20
To me it's pretty simple: What's at stake when you ladder? Nothing. Oh, sure, you can gain and lose points, but unless (until?) Blizzard hosts invite-by-ladder-rank for-prize tournaments that doesn't mean anything. They're just glorified friendlies or practice games. If good players ladder they'll naturally rise near the top, sure, but when results don't matter it's hard to read too much into them.

How many players have we heard about in BW who are awesome at in-house practice games but then never show us anything when it counts?

Tournaments have money on the line, results do matter, they mean much more. The fact the format is different matters too.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
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