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Hey all. Haven't posted anything on TL in a while but was wondering if anyone could help out with my current situation.
A little less than a month ago I decided to switch from Terran to Zerg (still listed as T on ladder though) as I was getting bored with Terran and Z might fit my playstyle better. At first I was only good at ZvT as I knew exactly what to do since I played terran previously. Then I slowly got better at ZvP, and I'd estimate my recent win % against T and P to be about 70%. I've casualy climbed to above 800 diamond, however, in ZvZ, I don't know what it is, but I do horribly. I probably have a 40% win ratio in this MU and it seems like the only matchup where I don't have good a understanding of what to do and am rather clueless as to how to play it effectively.
It's not like I do the same thing every game and I know how to play many different builds, so I can't really give details as to why I'm losing, it just seems like I'm lacking game sense in this MU.
So I am asking any high level Zerg players(1000+ diamond, posting your credentials will give more weight to your advice =]) if they could give any general or specific advise on this MU or anyone to direct me to RECENT resources (high level replays, vods, guides etc.) that could help me in ZvZ. I tried to find some but not to much avail. Thanks in Advance
JTPROG - new zerg
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I will be following this blog closely. My ZvZ seems to be lackluster at best.
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I will be following this blog closely. My ZvZ is horrible at best.
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just build mass speedling roaches and expand then..
if your opponent goes roaches you win because he can't leave his ramp because lings > roaches because roaches have a far too low attack speed. so if he has to stay on his ramp, just out expand him and own him with 2 or 3 base muta. if you ever get up his ramp - 5 banelings kill a complete mineral line. one dies to the queen, the other for in pairs of two kill half the mineral line each.
and if your opponent goes ling bling too - fun! :D get a spine crawler to pick of lone units and beat him in ling/bling micro. send in one bling to kill 10 of his lings/blings, send in one ling to kill one of his banelings, use single lings or pairs of two to kill incoming single lings/banelings which try to do that to you (especially important if you decide to skip the spine crawler). its just total fun xD
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Scoutscoutscout!
As a zerg player, I've found this to be the "easiest" strategy. REACTION. Though you might be always behind a little bit, a superior army composition should make up for it.
Ex. If your opponent goes fast roaches, don't get banelings. Skip most lings, turtle up with a few spines, and tech up to hydras/mutas. Hydras usually dominate poor muta micro. As your level, I think that good hydra placement should render most mutas useless.
BAH yeah ZvZ is hard to explain -_- maybe i'll try again later
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Disclaimer: I'm bad but these are my observations from laddering. I'm also only going to include the openings I have personal experience with.
I'm 800+ diamond but haven't hit a wall yet, take it for what it is. ZvZ is sadly my strongest matchup, but I really dislike it. I'll try to make an outline of what I do based on what I scout. However, you need to scout your opponents tech so even saccing an ovie is usually okay as long as you get to see if he's going for a roach warren or a baneling nest. If you have to play blind, play banelings. And to be honest if you're comfortable with banelings it's probably better to just not sacc and ovie and play blind for the time being. A LOT of zergs will actually let you run one of your first lings right into his base to see what's up. Don't be that guy. Depending on map you can even move your queen to the ramp.
Very important: Cover as much of the line between your bases as you can with overlords. Don't get too close to his base though he might try to queen your ovie. Also make lings as soon as your pool is done so you can get rid of his scout as fast as possible.
Let's start with the more common build, the baneling nest. It doesn't really matter much how early he gets it, I'll just put down a roach warren. The reason for this is pretty simple, gas. Roaches will beat banelings gas-for-gas, and that will buy you an earlier lair. However, NEVER EVER LEAVE YOUR RAMP with said roaches. If you do you die and lose, every single time. Will get back to what you should use said lair for later but let's take a look at the next opening. As you will be spending less larvae on units than your opponent you can also get ahead in drones.
Now sometimes they'll throw the baneling nest down instantly and not get ling speed. In this case make a spine crawler and tumor if it makes it so that the tumor can reach the ramp. Take metalopolis 3 o' clock for example. If you don't tumor the banelings can run up the ramp without getting hit by the spine. If you tumor they can't. Other than that just micro well, if he only gets one baneling through consider letting him attack your workers with it because they won't die. If he doesn't get a second baneling in there he's given you a free baneling, something to consider.
Now, what if you spot a roach warren? Easy, don't make a baneling nest. Drone quite a bit, then
make zerglings. Lots of them. Zerglings demolish roaches if he ever leaves his ramp so now you have full map control. You're not spending gas so you get a faster lair.
So now you have an advantage; faster lair. Make mutas, they will give you map control (make sure you don't get countered by his lings, always keep track of them. There's no shame in being careful and kill lings first with your mutas). Use said map control to throw down an expo. Harass to force your opponent to make queens or spores, while you make drones.
If you haven't yet won, let's take a quick look at the mid-game, although it usually won't get this far. The faster mutas will usually win, because mutas force hydras, and they will usually mix in roaches for a better min-gas ratio. So, since you know this is probably coming, mass ling/baneling. Micro your banelings well to kill his hydras. Let your lings and mutas polish off the rest of the roaches, ling/bling with a couple of mutas you have conserved will beat roach/hydra.
Another kind of weird thing some less experienced zergs might try is mass queens and tumor over to your base, which is more of a panic-thing than strategy but what the, it's easy to counter so I'll just write it down. Upgrade an over-seer and kill tumors. This also goes for if he's stuck on one base with queens, stop him from taking an expo by killing tumors.
That's about all I can think of, from my pretty limited experience these strategies work. Again take it for what it is, play around with it etc. I'm not stating any of it as fact etc.
Also please post questions! This has helped me gather my thoughts on ZvZ, so maybe you could try just writing down what you know about the matchup, then take what you know as "fact", and do it every game until someone gives you a reason not to, then re-consider your strategy.
Edit: Scrolled through replay list, don't really have any ZvZs worthy of uploading.
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Wow, thanks alot Adeny!
I'm only plat and I'm doing best in ZvZ but the write-up helped alot! Now make one for ZvP cause I'm horrible at it. I have issues knowing when to econ and when to make fighting units. x.x
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On September 10 2010 01:44 Torenhire wrote:
Wow, thanks alot Adeny!
I'm only plat and I'm doing best in ZvZ but the write-up helped alot! Now make one for ZvP cause I'm horrible at it. I have issues knowing when to econ and when to make fighting units. x.x
No probs it helped me gather my thoughts too. I'd love to do the same for ZvP but to be honest my ZvP is pretty damn horrible, hah. There are a lot more options so I'm still exploring. I like to just try doing whatever against my opponent, to see if it has any chance of working, and I experiment a lot in ladder, but it's so much easier with ZvZ because there are less units involved. And it's also pretty easy to compare "points", like if you have a drone more than your opponent you're ahead in drones. If you have a drone more than your opponent has SCVs, he's still got mules. ZvZ is just very clean like that.
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it's because zvz is the most dynamic matchup. you need to rely on scouting and adapt your build constantly. I never do the same thing twice in a zvz game (unless they are always doing the same build- which happens on ladder), I only have counter builds for what the enemy does.
enemy ---- you
6-8pool -- pool down asap 12-14 should suffice
10pool -- 13pool
13pool --- 15pool
15pool --- depending on positions either FE or 16-17pool
lings/blings --- roach wall
roaches --- expand
fast muta --- roach timing attack/expand spores
etc
etc
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On September 10 2010 01:35 Adeny wrote:
Disclaimer: I'm bad but these are my observations from laddering. I'm also only going to include the openings I have personal experience with.
I'm 800+ diamond but haven't hit a wall yet, take it for what it is. ZvZ is sadly my strongest matchup, but I really dislike it. I'll try to make an outline of what I do based on what I scout. However, you need to scout your opponents tech so even saccing an ovie is usually okay as long as you get to see if he's going for a roach warren or a baneling nest. If you have to play blind, play banelings. And to be honest if you're comfortable with banelings it's probably better to just not sacc and ovie and play blind for the time being. A LOT of zergs will actually let you run one of your first lings right into his base to see what's up. Don't be that guy. Depending on map you can even move your queen to the ramp.
Very important: Cover as much of the line between your bases as you can with overlords. Don't get too close to his base though he might try to queen your ovie. Also make lings as soon as your pool is done so you can get rid of his scout as fast as possible.
Let's start with the more common build, the baneling nest. It doesn't really matter much how early he gets it, I'll just put down a roach warren. The reason for this is pretty simple, gas. Roaches will beat banelings gas-for-gas, and that will buy you an earlier lair. However, NEVER EVER LEAVE YOUR RAMP with said roaches. If you do you die and lose, every single time. Will get back to what you should use said lair for later but let's take a look at the next opening. As you will be spending less larvae on units than your opponent you can also get ahead in drones.
Now sometimes they'll throw the baneling nest down instantly and not get ling speed. In this case make a spine crawler and tumor if it makes it so that the tumor can reach the ramp. Take metalopolis 3 o' clock for example. If you don't tumor the banelings can run up the ramp without getting hit by the spine. If you tumor they can't. Other than that just micro well, if he only gets one baneling through consider letting him attack your workers with it because they won't die. If he doesn't get a second baneling in there he's given you a free baneling, something to consider.
Now, what if you spot a roach warren? Easy, don't make a baneling nest. Drone quite a bit, then
make zerglings. Lots of them. Zerglings demolish roaches if he ever leaves his ramp so now you have full map control. You're not spending gas so you get a faster lair.
So now you have an advantage; faster lair. Make mutas, they will give you map control (make sure you don't get countered by his lings, always keep track of them. There's no shame in being careful and kill lings first with your mutas). Use said map control to throw down an expo. Harass to force your opponent to make queens or spores, while you make drones.
If you haven't yet won, let's take a quick look at the mid-game, although it usually won't get this far. The faster mutas will usually win, because mutas force hydras, and they will usually mix in roaches for a better min-gas ratio. So, since you know this is probably coming, mass ling/baneling. Micro your banelings well to kill his hydras. Let your lings and mutas polish off the rest of the roaches, ling/bling with a couple of mutas you have conserved will beat roach/hydra.
Another kind of weird thing some less experienced zergs might try is mass queens and tumor over to your base, which is more of a panic-thing than strategy but what the, it's easy to counter so I'll just write it down. Upgrade an over-seer and kill tumors. This also goes for if he's stuck on one base with queens, stop him from taking an expo by killing tumors.
That's about all I can think of, from my pretty limited experience these strategies work. Again take it for what it is, play around with it etc. I'm not stating any of it as fact etc.
Also please post questions! This has helped me gather my thoughts on ZvZ, so maybe you could try just writing down what you know about the matchup, then take what you know as "fact", and do it every game until someone gives you a reason not to, then re-consider your strategy.
Edit: Scrolled through replay list, don't really have any ZvZs worthy of uploading.
Uh what... No.
Okay.
Here's the thing.
There are two ways ZvZ is being played.
Ling Baneling into it doesn't matter
and Roach into mass roach or roach into muta.
If you want to win ZvZ, just know a few timings. If he gets gas before pool, he's going for fast speedlings which invariably means banelings. In this case, get a few roaches, put 'em on your ramp, LOL as he runs all of his units into those roaches, you survive, he lost all his units. Make about 10-12 roaches total, go push his base and win. it's really that easy to beat ling baneling. If he doesn't suicide his units into and holds 'em on reserve, push out with 15 or so roaches, always keep close tabs on them and be able to move them to your ramp, and take an expo.
If your opponent starts off with roaches you are in a much more precarious position. You need to either try for a one base timing attack (hit him with speed upgraded roaches right before he saturates his expansion and gets anything from it, or take an expo when you feel safe and get ready to play the long game. In the long game, an overseer or two is fantastic; contaminating his lair or hatch is awesome for stopping spawn larva, plus it's a good scout. You need to have something ready when he gets mutas. If he does, that is. But that overseer is critical to scouting and winning the midgame macrofest.
Once you've gotten the timings and the mechanics of ZvZ down you can play with different tactics like getting a baneling nest in the midgame for runbys, for blowing up hydras.. Nydus worms are fun.
The matchup is all about timing.
My advice? Never go ling baneling in the opening. It's over. It's useless on every map except scrap station and still pretty useless there.
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Yes zerglings beat roaches on open ground.
Roaches -> mass roaches get beat by ling -> mutas, because, you know. Mutas. Just threaten a run-by until you have mutas. And what are you talking about, expanding with roaches? Saturating an expo? Sounds like you're not making enough lings if that's the case.
Roaches -> mutas get beat by ling -> mutas, because the linging player can expand, and also has an earlier lair. A roaching player simply can't because of zergling shennanigans, run-by's, counter attacks, distractionary attacks with the mutas to run the lings in etc.
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1200+ Zerg at the moment. I'm only helping you out because you revoked your Terran birthright. Welcome to the swarm.
Here is how my ZvZs go:
9 overlord
14 gas
13 pool
15 overlord (stop droning)
pool done - queen + speed
all lings
next 50 gas - baneling nest
Send your first lings to check what he's doing (try to sneak one into his base). If he keeps making lings, he's probably going baneling. If you see ling speed, he's 99% going baneling. If you don't see very many early lings, he's probably getting roaches.
So your opponent can go:
6pool spine rush
ling/baneling
roach->muta
mass roach->roach/hydra/infestor
14hatch expand
Versus 6pool, once you see the spine crawler go down, pull all your drones to hit to crawler and lings. Don't build a queen and stop mining gas, just focus on ling production and killing the crawler. If the crawler manages to finish, you lose. If your lings come out, you win as long as you didn't lose too many drones.
Versus ling/baneling, it's a micro battle. Basically, it all comes down to who can get the banelings into the mineral lines first. You both start out with the optimal amount of drones for ling/baneling production, and once you start losing them to banelings, you aren't going to be able to keep up with production and are going to get run over. You *have* to be on top of your spawn larvaes, and *always* pay attention to your lings. If a bunch run into a stray baneling because you weren't paying attention, it's game over. Also, try not to group all of your banelings together. You don't want to lose a group of 6 banelings to 2 of your opponents' (it takes 2 banelings to kill 1 baneling, but those two can splash quite a bit). Try to snipe stray banelings by cloning your lings so that you have 1 ling hitting each baneling. The trick is fighting a decent distance away from your base so you have more time to kill the banelings before they get to your mineral lines. Also, always be checking around for morphing banelings (even inside your base). Killing morphing banelings can help you a ton, and letting banelings morph inside your base can lose you the game. Also, every so often, try to pop in a drone. If the game starts dragging on, you'll start to have extra minerals, so put down a spine crawler, play defensively with your banelings, and start teching to mutas. Spine crawlers at ramps are excellent at defending against banelings.
If your opponent is opening with roaches, you probably won't be able to do any damage with your lings and banelings if he's even halfway decent. To be honest, I usually play against roach openings by ear. There are two types of roach openings - roach->fast lair and mass roach. Roach->fast lair will get just enough roaches to defend the ramp and then try to rush mutas. Against this, it's best to expand quickly, get some queens, drone up, and then take your gas and overwhelm him later since it will be 4 geysers to 2. Your opponent won't be able to punish you because of the threat of ling backstabs, and he won't be heavy on roaches (just enough to block the ramp) because he wants to save the gas for mutas. Against mass roach, don't make a single baneling. Spend your next 100 gas on lair, put an overlord at your ramp, take your second geyser, and drone hard (until you have ~24, including gas drones). Tech to mutas, and when your lair finishes, build crawlers at your ramp (overlord is for pooping creep there). Get more lings when he comes out to attack, and wall off the choke if necessary so he can't run by. Once mutas are out, focus on killing stray roaches and overlords. Ideally, he'll attack right around when the spire is finishing, so you can clean up the roaches with mutas and tech to roaches yourself while he's getting hydras and infestors. If you are able to kill his roaches, feel free to expand.
Against 14hatch expand, I don't really have a solid plan since I haven't played against it that much. You probably want to try to put pressure with your speedlings to force him to get a lot of crawlers and overcommit on defense while you expand yourself. Note that he's not really going to be ahead on economy, just on bases. His drone count will be the same as yours (less, even, once he starts putting down crawlers). Do NOT try to kill him with your first few lings, since he will have his queens/lings up in time to defend easily.
Against all of these strategies, though, it's best to play them through yourself to see their strengths and weaknesses. It's one thing when someone else is telling you what to do, but it's an entirely different thing to experience it yourself. Especially with 14hatch expand. When playing against it, it seems really stable, and if you try to allin against it, it will feel like your opponent has this unsurmountable economic advantage and a really sturdy defense at the same time. But when you're actually doing it, you'll see how fragile it really is. Same with roaches: the threat of backstabs are always really scary. But when playing against a roach user, all you see is a huge mass of roaches walking confidently to your base.
Finally, this is a huge generalization about how ZvZs usually play out:
After the opener, one person decides to go for mutas due to a gas advantage. The other person decides to either race with mutas (due to an expo, meaning potential extra gas, or lack of scouting), or is forced to get hydras and go roach/hydra/infestor. The muta player must switch to roaches. Then most games end with mass roach vs roach/hydra/infestor. If it gets to that point, the roach/hydra/infestor player might try to tech to ultralisks.
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Team Liqiud 2.0: Where the blogs have more strategic discussion than the strategy forum.
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On September 10 2010 02:39 Adeny wrote:
Yes zerglings beat roaches on open ground.
Roaches -> mass roaches get beat by ling -> mutas, because, you know. Mutas. Just threaten a run-by until you have mutas.
No, they absolutely don't. If his roaches are all spread out and have huge gaps in between them maybe, but any smart zerg player will clump his roaches so his lings have no surface spread. 12 roaches clumped together can take probably 50 or 60 zerglings. This is absolutely wrong.
And what are you talking about, expanding with roaches? Saturating an expo? Sounds like you're not making enough lings if that's the case.
Not making enough lings?? Why would you want to make lings in any situation? Lings are not going to win ZvZ against roaches. In a perfect situation you want to make zero combat units until you have 60 drones, 30 at each base, and even then you'd like to saturate a third. Obviously this is impossible. So you make enough units to fight your opponent while making more drones than he does to compound a midgame advantage.
Anything else is aiming to win in the early game which will be shut down by intelligent, scouting, well-timed, prepared players.
Roaches -> mutas get beat by ling -> mutas, because the linging player can expand, and also has an earlier lair. A roaching player simply can't because of zergling shennanigans, run-by's, counter attacks, distractionary attacks with the mutas to run the lings in etc.
Right, if I'm going mass roach, and I scout mutas coming soon, I'm totally gonna stay on mass roach... ... ... ... /sarcasm. Seriously? You always stay on the appropriate tech path based on who the aggressor is. If you're the aggressor and you are dictating the tech path, hooray. But often, I like to be on the back foot of tech while getting a much stronger economy than my opponent and then overwhelming him when my econ kicks in and his tech advantage is nullified.
If you're trying to improve your game, don't aim to win with lings or banelings and take an early game victory. Instead, work on the midgame and the lategame. Improve your ZvZ macro, your ZvZ mechanics, your ZvZ scouting, and your ZvZ timing. This is what makes a good player, not just a 'make mass lings and then mass mutas, sure you'll win.'
I'd like to teach you how to ZvZ.
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Eiserne, it seems like you know what you're talking about. Or at least you think you do. But I'd like to say one thing.
My advice? Never go ling baneling in the opening. It's over. It's useless on every map except scrap station and still pretty useless there.
You're wrong.
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On September 10 2010 03:28 Saracen wrote:Eiserne, it seems like you know what you're talking about. Or at least you think you do. But I'd like to say one thing. Show nested quote +My advice? Never go ling baneling in the opening. It's over. It's useless on every map except scrap station and still pretty useless there. You're wrong.
I don't ever lose to ling baneling. -ever-. If you can beat me 1v1 ling baneling against me, I'll take it, figure out how I messed up, correct it, and show you why it can't win in the opening. Honestly, if I ever scout ling baneling, I 1base roach and auto win.
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You're not looking to ram lings into his ball of roaches, you're looking to force him to stay at home until you have mutas.
It doesn't matter if you scout my lair because I'm using no gas. I don't care how fast you think you can switch to hydras after making "mass roach" (which I must assume is at least 300 gas worth of them). So now you can't move out in forever, you've gotta stay close to your queens in your main base while I'm expanding. Let's say you get your hydras though, and let's pretend you're not years behind on your expansion. What are you going to do with roach/hydra against ling/muta? All I have to do is morph a couple of banelings, gib your hydras, and clean up your roaches with mutas.
You say you like to be on the defensive and drone, but I'm droning more than you because you can't pressure at all with roaches, you're just going to get your main filled with lings. If you start reaching high enough numbers for a roach-ball to get scary, a couple of spines is all it takes. The roaches will be stuck with their really slow attack speed trying to pick off one ling at a time while getting spined in the face.
Don't aim to win with ling/baneling? I said I skip banelings completely. No one is aiming for an early game victory, I said I drone first. The lings are just a better choice as far as combat unit goes because they allow a lot of flexibility and give good map control, and they open up mutas faster which gives even more flexibility and map control. I would say your mass roach is more of a "trying to win early"-strategy as they give you no presence on the map during the mid game.
You're trying to offend me on points you're making up, is it so hard to argue your case that you have to resort to this? Or do you just assume you have it all figured out and that you are the best player in the world, and that only you know what makes a good player? I'd like to teach you how to manner.
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On September 10 2010 03:56 Eiserne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 03:28 Saracen wrote:Eiserne, it seems like you know what you're talking about. Or at least you think you do. But I'd like to say one thing. My advice? Never go ling baneling in the opening. It's over. It's useless on every map except scrap station and still pretty useless there. You're wrong. I don't ever lose to ling baneling. -ever-. If you can beat me 1v1 ling baneling against me, I'll take it, figure out how I messed up, correct it, and show you why it can't win in the opening. Honestly, if I ever scout ling baneling, I 1base roach and auto win.
If my theorycrafting is correct, he woud easily be able to gain map control from his ling/baneling, drone, expand, and defend your 1base roach pretty easily. But what do I know, I suck at ZvZ ahaha.
Anyway thanks all for the advice thus far, everyone had good input even if some things were flawed, I take what I find useful. I'm looking forward to see what others have to say.
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On September 10 2010 03:56 Eiserne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 03:28 Saracen wrote:Eiserne, it seems like you know what you're talking about. Or at least you think you do. But I'd like to say one thing. My advice? Never go ling baneling in the opening. It's over. It's useless on every map except scrap station and still pretty useless there. You're wrong. I don't ever lose to ling baneling. -ever-. If you can beat me 1v1 ling baneling against me, I'll take it, figure out how I messed up, correct it, and show you why it can't win in the opening. Honestly, if I ever scout ling baneling, I 1base roach and auto win.
Ok, PM me your info. If you don't mind, the replays will be posted. Of your "first" losses to ling/baneling, that is.
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On September 10 2010 03:59 Adeny wrote:
You're not looking to ram lings into his ball of roaches, you're looking to force him to stay at home until you have mutas.
It doesn't matter if you scout my lair because I'm using no gas. I don't care how fast you think you can switch to hydras after making "mass roach" (which I must assume is at least 300 gas worth of them). So now you can't move out in forever, you've gotta stay close to your queens in your main base while I'm expanding. Let's say you get your hydras though, and let's pretend you're not years behind on your expansion. What are you going to do with roach/hydra against ling/muta? All I have to do is morph a couple of banelings, gib your hydras, and clean up your roaches with mutas.
You say you like to be on the defensive and drone, but I'm droning more than you because you can't pressure at all with roaches, you're just going to get your main filled with lings. If you start reaching high enough numbers for a roach-ball to get scary, a couple of spines is all it takes. The roaches will be stuck with their really slow attack speed trying to pick off one ling at a time while getting spined in the face.
Don't aim to win with ling/baneling? I said I skip banelings completely. No one is aiming for an early game victory, I said I drone first. The lings are just a better choice as far as combat unit goes because they allow a lot of flexibility and give good map control, and they open up mutas faster which gives even more flexibility and map control. I would say your mass roach is more of a "trying to win early"-strategy as they give you no presence on the map during the mid game.
You're trying to offend me on points you're making up, is it so hard to argue your case that you have to resort to this? Or do you just assume you have it all figured out and that you are the best player in the world, and that only you know what makes a good player? I'd like to teach you how to manner.
1v1 right now, when I destroy you, we'll post the reps here and you can give me a public apology for not reading, not thinking, not listening, and still arguing.
There are two mineral only responses to quick muta; Queens and Spores. I could make 5 queens and you'd have a tough time getting enough mutas to kill even one of them before I pushed my roaches into your base and won outright. What makes you think I can't leave my base with roaches? I leave 3 roaches on a ramp, 2 spine crawlers behind them, and you'll never break that wall. In the meantime, my other 12 roaches are destroying your base. You really need to think outside the box, because your lings are in no way shape or form giving you map control. If you try to go headsup with my roaches your army is gone and then you have to spine crawler whore, or pray that your mutas come out in time to kill my roaches before they do sufficient enough damage to win the game.
I only use hydra in the late game ZvZ, and only because it gives me another range of attackers. I'd go mass roach if I could but one line of roaches against three lines of roaches is advantageous for the one line for quite a while. But one line of roaches against one line of hydras will win against 3 lines of roaches. I dont' know if this paragraph makes any sense on paper but I'm sure you get the image.
Seriously man. You're playing at a pretty low level. I'll demonstrate it only if you're manner enough to learn without blindly assuming you're auto-right at ~800 diamond.
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You're not paying attention.
You're spending on 5 queens and 2 spines. That's 1050 minerals and 2 drones that won't be mining any more.Your lair is also apparently ass-late with 5 fucking queens. And this just to stay alive. In the mean-time I'm making an expo and 750 minerals worth of drones, while my mutas are taking a piss on your 12 roach attack-ball. And as I mentioned in my post I'll using overseer+muta to stop you from expanding creep, you won't have any hope of getting an expo, ever.
As for my rank, you never stated or proved your own rank so to me, you're a mid bronze player until otherwise is proven. And as I said I'm still in the process of finding my rank as I gained 200+ points over the last 2 days, but at the end of the day overall ladder rank has nothing to do with ZvZ skill.
And what's up with the attempted personal attacks? Argue your case and if you're right you'll convince me and others that your strategy is better.
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I'm sorry it's hard to argue with you when you don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're arguing against every known fact of theory.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/76617-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/76619-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands
2 Replays of the post-baneling timing attack. The same attack holds true for non-baneling. I will have scouted your lack of a baneling nest, I will have scouted your early lair, I will have put up an evo for spores, and I will proceed to punish your ling army with roaches.
I don't understand why you think this doesn't pay out. If I have 3 spores and two queens at each base, that's approx 1300 minerals and your mutas are totally negated. Your 1200/1200 clump of mutas.
And that's if you survive my counter push, which, trust me, I will counter push, and it will win the game outright.
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Replay 1:
Chaos goes early ling speed, early baneling nest, makes 6 banelings and rams them into your roaches. Then doesn't start his lair before he's at 250 gas and 700+ minerals. He hasn't droned properly because he was too busy making banelings, and thus doesn't have his second gas either. Then proceeds to make a roach warren, your ramp is completely open at this point and a run-by with some spines in his main would have won him the game. You transition into being a smart-ass, and it was pretty obvious that your opponent had no clear plan on how to beat your roaches, as he said he had limited experience as zerg and was just fumbling in the dark.
Replay 2:
You both 10 overlord, all of your opionions are void. Your opponent then does nothing with his 3 larvae and 150+ minerals for a good 20 seconds, then decides to make an overlord and 2 drones with them. At 11 supply. Oh and he doesn't know the hatchery has 2 rally-points. And again with the baneling nest. 5 minutes in he scouts you for the first time and sees a roach. He attacks your ramp and gives you a free run-by with his 4 lings. Doesn't lair until he has 250 gas either.
These replay just makes me suspect even more that you are a mid-level bronze player just trolling. Are you even trying?
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On September 10 2010 05:01 Adeny wrote:
Replay 1:
Chaos goes early ling speed, early baneling nest, makes 6 banelings and rams them into your roaches. Then doesn't start his lair before he's at 250 gas and 700+ minerals. He hasn't droned properly because he was too busy making banelings, and thus doesn't have his second gas either. Then proceeds to make a roach warren, your ramp is completely open at this point and a run-by with some spines in his main would have won him the game. You transition into being a smart-ass, and it was pretty obvious that your opponent had no clear plan on how to beat your roaches, as he said he had limited experience as zerg and was just fumbling in the dark.
Replay 2:
You both 10 overlord, all of your opionions are void. Your opponent then does nothing with his 3 larvae and 150+ minerals for a good 20 seconds, then decides to make an overlord and 2 drones with them. At 11 supply. Oh and he doesn't know the hatchery has 2 rally-points. And again with the baneling nest. 5 minutes in he scouts you for the first time and sees a roach. He attacks your ramp and gives you a free run-by with his 4 lings. Doesn't lair until he has 250 gas either.
These replay just makes me suspect even more that you are a mid-level bronze player just trolling. Are you even trying?
Mekhami.998. ~1200 diamond. When you want to 1v1 and get raped let me know, stop talking shit until you back up anything you can say.
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On September 10 2010 05:06 Eiserne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 05:01 Adeny wrote:
Replay 1:
Chaos goes early ling speed, early baneling nest, makes 6 banelings and rams them into your roaches. Then doesn't start his lair before he's at 250 gas and 700+ minerals. He hasn't droned properly because he was too busy making banelings, and thus doesn't have his second gas either. Then proceeds to make a roach warren, your ramp is completely open at this point and a run-by with some spines in his main would have won him the game. You transition into being a smart-ass, and it was pretty obvious that your opponent had no clear plan on how to beat your roaches, as he said he had limited experience as zerg and was just fumbling in the dark.
Replay 2:
You both 10 overlord, all of your opionions are void. Your opponent then does nothing with his 3 larvae and 150+ minerals for a good 20 seconds, then decides to make an overlord and 2 drones with them. At 11 supply. Oh and he doesn't know the hatchery has 2 rally-points. And again with the baneling nest. 5 minutes in he scouts you for the first time and sees a roach. He attacks your ramp and gives you a free run-by with his 4 lings. Doesn't lair until he has 250 gas either.
These replay just makes me suspect even more that you are a mid-level bronze player just trolling. Are you even trying? Mekhami.998. ~1200 diamond. When you want to 1v1 and get raped let me know, stop talking shit until you back up anything you can say.
We're done here dude, your replays lost you all credibility because I could also show you replays of me playing custom games vs. my bronze level friends, and on top of that be a smart-ass in said replays.
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On September 10 2010 05:21 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 05:06 Eiserne wrote:On September 10 2010 05:01 Adeny wrote:
Replay 1:
Chaos goes early ling speed, early baneling nest, makes 6 banelings and rams them into your roaches. Then doesn't start his lair before he's at 250 gas and 700+ minerals. He hasn't droned properly because he was too busy making banelings, and thus doesn't have his second gas either. Then proceeds to make a roach warren, your ramp is completely open at this point and a run-by with some spines in his main would have won him the game. You transition into being a smart-ass, and it was pretty obvious that your opponent had no clear plan on how to beat your roaches, as he said he had limited experience as zerg and was just fumbling in the dark.
Replay 2:
You both 10 overlord, all of your opionions are void. Your opponent then does nothing with his 3 larvae and 150+ minerals for a good 20 seconds, then decides to make an overlord and 2 drones with them. At 11 supply. Oh and he doesn't know the hatchery has 2 rally-points. And again with the baneling nest. 5 minutes in he scouts you for the first time and sees a roach. He attacks your ramp and gives you a free run-by with his 4 lings. Doesn't lair until he has 250 gas either.
These replay just makes me suspect even more that you are a mid-level bronze player just trolling. Are you even trying? Mekhami.998. ~1200 diamond. When you want to 1v1 and get raped let me know, stop talking shit until you back up anything you can say. We're done here dude, your replays lost you all credibility because I could also show you replays of me playing custom games vs. my bronze level friends, and on top of that be a smart-ass in said replays.
Of course we're done. You're a chicken shit. You don't know what you're talking about and have zero ability to back it up.
You're the worst kind of chicken shit.
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Yeah except you can see I'm from Europe and know we're not going to be playing. Now stop the name-calling, you're way out of line. I'm going to go ahead and continue this discussion on topic, you're free to join in.
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On September 10 2010 05:38 Adeny wrote:
Yeah except you can see I'm from Europe and know we're not going to be playing. Now stop the name-calling, you're way out of line. I'm going to go ahead and continue this discussion on topic, you're free to join in.
Right, take the high and mighty road and decry my 'name-calling waaaaaaaaaah' while you call me a bronze level player.
We both know it's simple to find a friend with an NA account, or for me to find a friend with an EU account, and settle this like men. The difference though, is that you're a childish internet boy, with no sense or dignity.
Sounds great. I don't need to prove anything to you. Continue to play at the 800 level. Need I remind you that 800 is STILL D-/D iccup? You talk a big talk for such a low-skilled player.
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So let me get this straight, 800 is D- and 1100 is progamer level and you trump everyone elses statements automatically. I'm not "auto-right" (as I think you called it), however you, with your 1100 rating, you're clearly auto-right in any situation ever. Now if someone wants to contest my original strategy I'm willing to discuss it in a civilized manner. However posting replays of your roaches beating someones banelings (someone who by the way sits at around 470 points since that matters so much to you). I'm trying to help a guy out here, back off. It's nothing personal.
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On September 10 2010 06:05 Adeny wrote:
So let me get this straight, 800 is D- and 1100 is progamer level and you trump everyone elses statements automatically. I'm not "auto-right" (as I think you called it), however you, with your 1100 rating, you're clearly auto-right in any situation ever. Now if someone wants to contest my original strategy I'm willing to discuss it in a civilized manner. However posting replays of your roaches beating someones banelings (someone who by the way sits at around 470 points since that matters so much to you). I'm trying to help a guy out here, back off. It's nothing personal.
You're not trying to help anybody out, you're wildly misinforming a new Zerg player.
Saracen and I have arranged to play matches because he believes Ling Baneling can beat roach. If he's right, I'll adjust my play, find a more solid opening, and come back with a better roach build that does not fall. I'll learn the timings of his build, figure out what I'm scouting for, use my larva more specifically and accurately, and defeat his ling/baneling strategy the next time around.
All you can say is 'No dude, runbys. No dude.'
You're wrong. A smart player is prepared for run bys. I can split my roach force in half, one half will demolish your lol mass speedlings, and the other half will block my ramp. You will try a runby and lose many lings. I will then push out, take my expansion, while i'm raping your main because you put too much faith in -static- defense. I will take every small advantage I get, whether it's sniping your queen or sniping a gas or a few drones or a spawning pool, or just simply keeping pressure on you so you have no way of moving out. Then, depending on what tech I see since I'm trouncing all over your base, I'll counter it, use strong 2 base economy to overwhelm you until you rage quit because you can't conceptualize in your tiny little brain how you could possibly be wrong.
You're wrong. Period. If you want to prove otherwise, try to do so. Until then, stop arguing with your betters.
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You were first to challenge my statement, so I'm not wrong, until you prove otherwise. You realized this and posted 2 replays which were very unrelated, where you beat inexperienced zergs (who even mentioned they were inxeperienced), by going roach all-in with 15 drones. I objectively analyzed your games and I see no relation to what your opponents are doing as to what I'm suggesting, so those are out of the picture. So you're left with your blank claims which are just as good as mine. I made my statement and have feel I have nothing to prove, if OP wants to try the strategies I suggested, great, maybe he can make them work for him like I have. Now if you'll excuse me I've wasted way too many calories typing nothing of substance, so good night. Oh and here's a tip, 9 overlord has been proven to be better than 10 overlord in every way, shape or form. Maybe even your highness has learned something from all this.
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On September 10 2010 06:27 Adeny wrote:
You were first to challenge my statement, so I'm not wrong, until you prove otherwise. You realized this and posted 2 replays which were very unrelated, where you beat inexperienced zergs (who even mentioned they were inxeperienced), by going roach all-in with 15 drones. I objectively analyzed your games and I see no relation to what your opponents are doing as to what I'm suggesting, so those are out of the picture. So you're left with your blank claims which are just as good as mine. I made my statement and have feel I have nothing to prove, if OP wants to try the strategies I suggested, great, maybe he can make them work for him like I have. Now if you'll excuse me I've wasted way too many calories typing nothing of substance, so good night. Oh and here's a tip, 9 overlord has been proven to be better than 10 overlord in every way, shape or form. Maybe even your highness has learned something from all this.
At least you admit you typed nothing of substance.
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You have a bad case of selective reading disorder. Take a look at this replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/76225-1v1-zerg-metalopolis
Found it in a different thread. Lunacy plays this one as I suggested for the most part, what do you think of it? What errors did Won make? Now, in this case it ended with the mutas but let's pretend it didn't. Won hasn't even started his lair yet, so blue is free to expo and drone as much as he desires, while Won has to be making queens and/or spores, as well as a lair and hydralisks before he can do anything at all. Because as I'm sure you'll agree on, lings/spines/muta beat a roach attack.
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Hydra infestor midgame (following a transition out of mutas, or directly into hydras if you were late on the spire) IMO makes any roach/baneling/muta etc composition obsolete. Hydras outdps roaches and their fragility is mitigated by the fact that probably only half of the roach ball will get to attack due to fungal. Banelings die to fungal without any additional work needed. Zerglings clump so hard that I've lost over 50 lings to 2 fungal growths...it hurts. No matter how you open, IMO you need to be heading toward hydra infestor (and eventually ultras).
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On September 10 2010 09:11 sooch wrote:
Hydra infestor midgame (following a transition out of mutas, or directly into hydras if you were late on the spire) IMO makes any roach/baneling/muta etc composition obsolete. Hydras outdps roaches and their fragility is mitigated by the fact that probably only half of the roach ball will get to attack due to fungal. Banelings die to fungal without any additional work needed. Zerglings clump so hard that I've lost over 50 lings to 2 fungal growths...it hurts. No matter how you open, IMO you need to be heading toward hydra infestor (and eventually ultras).
The problem with this is a muta/ling-ing player will already have enough lings to lay the hurt on them hydras, before infestors are good to go, seeing as infestors cost about a million gas.
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Infestation pit comes up very quickly, is half the resources of spire, and infestors in terms of cost-effectiveness per unit of gas absolutely rock mutas. I used to be of the same thinking before I got infestor'd...you can't split your lings and banelings enough to avoid getting the majority of them fungal'd. I can't see the infestor hydra player NOT having the energy to defend a muta ling player by the time they decide to stop harassing and attempt a push in...especially since mutaling tends to expand across the map once they see the other player going hydra and relinquishing air control.
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I see what you mean, but the reason I didn't mention it in my little write-up was because I have very little experience against it from just laddering. As such I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong, but I think there should be enough time between the infestors spawning (which you'll scout with mutas if you're persistent with your harass), and them having enough energy. What do you have in the meantime, what's your lead-up to infestors? A defensive ling/bling might make sense, as the mutaing players only weapon against hydras are ling/bling.
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On September 10 2010 02:04 CharlieMurphy wrote:
it's because zvz is the most dynamic matchup. you need to rely on scouting and adapt your build constantly. I never do the same thing twice in a zvz game (unless they are always doing the same build- which happens on ladder), I only have counter builds for what the enemy does.
enemy ---- you
6-8pool -- pool down asap 12-14 should suffice
10pool -- 13pool
13pool --- 15pool
15pool --- depending on positions either FE or 16-17pool
lings/blings --- roach wall
roaches --- expand
fast muta --- roach timing attack/expand spores
etc
etc
I do the same as this. Aootugh since i dont like the mu i just go with 12 gas -> pool -> bling nest and then adapt accordingly. Is hard to not do ANY dame with the blings and specially if your opponent overreacts youll get a great start.
Also to note HydraRoach>Roach once the armies get big enough. This is because all his army will be able to attack you and youll have some roaches just wandering around.
Also on "higher" levels is important to master the ability to burrow-unburrow roaches (obs with the hp regen upgrade) this can make your army last almost twice as long.
Also ALWAYS get an overseer. Try to contaminate whenever possible.
Also Hydra>Muta but only after you get 10+ control group. If you are being countered with blings burrow your hidras once they get near so your roaches kills them and then unburrow hidras to keep attacking the mutalisk. Dont worry too much about the mutas attacking the roaches because roach can handle that pretty well.
Also if you get a lead and your opponent is going for mutas you can just 1a into his lair and probably destroy it before any mutalisk gets out. An even if they are out you can still prolly kill it.
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This is a week or two old now, but did the games between Saracen and Eiserne ever happen?
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On September 22 2010 14:03 Aubergine wrote:
This is a week or two old now, but did the games between Saracen and Eiserne ever happen?
Yeah, I want to know as well. Replays?
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I'd like to know as well  Replays !!
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lol....some funny debating going on here. This is why (imo) the ZvZ match is so annoying. Each player can react/counter as fast as their Z counterpart.
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I'm curious too. The with that back-and-forth flamewar, I'm surprised no warnings/bans were thrown out!
Saracen, did you guys ever play?
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no one... got warned for that??? I mean seriously, he used the word 'rape' and 'fag' in the same thread, please someone reach this guy and show him some love :S
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Man, I am so curious to see the replays. I'm on the side of mass lings though against roaches. Map control is soooo important, and a roach push can be stopped with a couple spine crawlers + your lings. And of course, your mutas pop way faster.
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On September 10 2010 10:52 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 02:04 CharlieMurphy wrote:
it's because zvz is the most dynamic matchup. you need to rely on scouting and adapt your build constantly. I never do the same thing twice in a zvz game (unless they are always doing the same build- which happens on ladder), I only have counter builds for what the enemy does.
enemy ---- you
6-8pool -- pool down asap 12-14 should suffice
10pool -- 13pool
13pool --- 15pool
15pool --- depending on positions either FE or 16-17pool
lings/blings --- roach wall
roaches --- expand
fast muta --- roach timing attack/expand spores
etc
etc I do the same as this. Aootugh since i dont like the mu i just go with 12 gas -> pool -> bling nest and then adapt accordingly. Is hard to not do ANY dame with the blings and specially if your opponent overreacts youll get a great start. Also to note HydraRoach>Roach once the armies get big enough. This is because all his army will be able to attack you and youll have some roaches just wandering around. Also on "higher" levels is important to master the ability to burrow-unburrow roaches (obs with the hp regen upgrade) this can make your army last almost twice as long. Also ALWAYS get an overseer. Try to contaminate whenever possible. Also Hydra>Muta but only after you get 10+ control group. If you are being countered with blings burrow your hidras once they get near so your roaches kills them and then unburrow hidras to keep attacking the mutalisk. Dont worry too much about the mutas attacking the roaches because roach can handle that pretty well. Also if you get a lead and your opponent is going for mutas you can just 1a into his lair and probably destroy it before any mutalisk gets out. An even if they are out you can still prolly kill it.
you know you can still press X on blings to explode them and splash underground/cloaked targets right? Best way to deal with blings when you have hydra is just infestors
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I may be a bit late on this, but I'm reading a lot of "Unit A + Unit B BEATS Unit X + Unit Y". These types of statements are way too bold imo. There are so many circumstances to consider:
How many units are there of each?
Where and in what position are they engaging?
At what stage in the game are you talking about?
For example I'm seeing a lot of people arguing that roaches beat speedlings. And some people are from the school of thought that speedlings beat roaches. Neither is absolutely true, but both CAN be true. Put either of them in compromising circumstance and they can absolutely be true. The game isn't about really about 'counters' and unit composition as much as you guys make it out to be.
~1900 Zerg
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EPT
