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Splash and AOE in SC 1 and 2

Blogs > micronesia
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micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24799 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 23:04:40
August 29 2010 17:53 GMT
#1
Splash and Area of Effect Damage in Starcraft


[image loading]


Key: 

Allied units: my partner's units
Friendly units: my units


A key element of balancing starcraft is determining how much splash damage a unit can do, how it is calculated, and how it affects friendly and allied forces. I'm going to summarize some of my thoughts about how this worked in sc1 and compare it to sc2.

Spells

Let's go through the spells in sc1 that did splash damage including area spells (realistically I don't think any spells do 'splash' per say, but you get what I mean). I'm doing this from memory so I probably won't get everything perfectly (feel free to identify corrections).

1. Psionic Storm: deals a lot of damage over a given area (equal dps anywhere in this region, armor ignored), spread across several seconds. Can damage allied and friendly units.

2. Irradiate: deals a lot of damage to a biological unit over a long period of time (or until it died) plus deals equal damage to any closeby biological unit. Can damage allied and friendly units.

3. EMP: deals full shields damage to a small area, and saps all energy.

4. Plague: deals a lot of damage to a given area over a long window of time, but can't bring the unit to 0 hp. Can damage allied and friendly units.

5. Nuke: Huge amount of damage to a large area. Often difficult to successfully land the nuke without losing your ghost. Buildings receive 2/3 damage, even if they have much higher hp than the typical nuke damage to units.

Now for the spells in sc2:

1. Psionic Storm: similar in nature to the sc1 equivalent. The size of the area and damage output/rate can be modified to balance as necessary.

2. EMP: very similar in nature to the sc1 equivalent. The size of the area and range of casting can both be modified to balance.

3. Heat seeking missile: deals damage to an area if the missiles strikes the target. Damages allies and friendly units.

4. Fungal Growth: Certainly reminds me of plague. However, it also makes the units unable to move for a short time. I think the total damage dealt to high-hp units is much lower than with plague, but the spell in many situations is much more effective on groups of low-hp units. Fungal growth can be used at 'tier 2' unlike plague which required 'tier 3'. Fungal growth is a beast.

5. Nuke: Very similar to sc1... someone can point out to me if there are any major differences.

Spells don't seem that different in sc2 compared to sc1. Plague was slightly buffed in some applications, and terran lost irradiate but gained heat seeking missile. P's main spell is still storm.




Units

Let's go through the units that deal splash or area damage in sc1.

1. Firebat: damage to a small area in front of the firebat, only worthwhile vs small melee units like lings/zealots or occasionally when assaulting sunkens due to their higher hp/armor than marines. I believe firebats will deal damage to allied units who get too close.

2. Sieged Tank: Deals 70 damage to primary target, and reduced damage to nearby surrounding units (including allied or friendly). Tanks always deal less damage to smaller units and more to larger units.

3. Valkyrie: Air to air damage that affects a 3x3 area. Deals damage to allied units.

4. Spider mine: Deals a lot of area damage! Not really a unit but I'm not sure how best to classify this.

5. Lurker: Damage in a straight line, range is pretty good. Requires lurker to be burrowed so it can't move until it unburrows. Deals damage to allied units but not friendly units.

6. Mutalisk: Damages 9 to the primary target, 3 to a nearby enemy target, and 1 to a third target.

7. Infested terran: deals huge damage to an area as it suicides. will hit allied and friendly units.

8. Archon: Deals 30 damage to primary target then a few points of damage to other units near the target. Splash will damage allied units.

9. Reaver: Deals a lot of damage to the primary target and equal amounts to enemies or allies near the target, and also deals reduced damage to units slightly further away from the target (I think, reavers are a bit weird).

10. Corsair: Air to air damage that is small to the primary target but frequent and deals some splash to surrounding air units. Splash will damage allied units.

How do these compare to sc2?

1. Hellion: deals damage in a straight line, is more effective vs light units. Sort of like an overpowered firebat riding on a vulture. Does this deal damage to allies?

2. Sieged tank: deals damage similarly to sc1 tanks. Yes it includes allied and friendly fire.

3. Thor: deals air splash to units near primary target. Not sure if it damages allies.

4. Mutalisk: I think it's the same as sc1 more or less.

5. Baneling: Works similarly to an infested terran from bw but on a smaller scale. Does not deal damage to allies or friendly units (I think). Deals damage even if killed before reaching target.

6. Ultralisk: Deals area damage now to all the units in front of it unlike in broodwar. Not sure if it hits allied units.

7. Colossus: Deals area damage in a line parallel to the enemy's concave (usually and this is effective). Has a large range that can be upgraded to 9. I don't believe it deals any allied damage.

8. Archon: Similar to sc1 damage (slightly lower).

I do need to check on a few of these sc2 units to see if damage is dealt to allies or not, but in general the trend seems to be less friendly and allied fire in sc2 than broodwar (not sure if I like this).

One unit in particular that stands out to me is the baneling. Its enhancements over the infested terran seem somewhat unchecked. It can deal damage even if killed before reaching its target, and doesn't splash friendly units. Those two sorta have to go hand in hand otherwise banelings would be too weak. However, a group of banelings can all reach a group of bio or other ground units and each detonate ideally without influencing each other (try that with infested terrans lol). What would seem logical to me is to make it so banelings that are detonated prematurely do not splash friendly forces (for fairness) but banelings that detonate when commanded to or when meeting an enemy troop deal a small amount of splash damage to nearby friendly units (much less so than the enemy). This would make sense when you consider that zerg could have an innate ressitance to the corrosive attack of the baneling, but not an infinite one. It would force the zerg to be careful not to deplete any banelings on friendly fire without greatly reducing the utilitize of banelings. Just a thought. I'm not going to make a claim that current revision banelings are OP/imba since I'm not qualified to.




I think an important part of balancing sc2 is to look at the spells and units above and see how they've changed from broodwar (a very well balanced game) to sc2 (a game currently being balanced at higher levels). Every change needs to be explained in the context of other aspects of sc2 besides splash that are different from sc1. It's too easy to compare a unit or spell from sc1 and see how it was apparently buffed/nerfed in sc2 and start complaining, but that new unit plays a different role in the new army of sc2. The mechanics of the game also work a lot differently including vision, roles of cliffs, fighting up ramps, etc. But, it's these types of units and spells that I believe determine more than anything else how excellent an RTS can be. They are also one of the main reasons why games like SC are so damned difficult and time-cosuming to balance.

If anyone can clear up any of the questions about which units do or don't deal friendly/allied damage or if you can point out errors I would appreciate it.

***
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
NuKedUFirst
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada3139 Posts
August 29 2010 18:06 GMT
#2
5. Nuke: Very similar to sc1... someone can point out to me if there are any major differences.


Lower tier and it does 200 dmg + 300 to buildings.

Great write up:D
FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I like winning because it validates all the bloody time I waste playing SC2.
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 18:08:58
August 29 2010 18:07 GMT
#3
You do a good job explaining the types of splash, but what's your thesis? You're just running up and stating evidence without arguing anything.

EDIT oh and spider mines with 125 explosive damage were very important for dealing splash damage also
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 18:15:37
August 29 2010 18:15 GMT
#4
in sc1 nukes do 500 damage or 2/3 total health, not 1/2.

valks do not hurt allied or your own

I would double check that f-bats hurt allied units.

Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24799 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 18:19:37
August 29 2010 18:18 GMT
#5
On August 30 2010 03:07 YoureFired wrote:
You do a good job explaining the types of splash, but what's your thesis? You're just running up and stating evidence without arguing anything.

EDIT oh and spider mines with 125 explosive damage were very important for dealing splash damage also

I don't really back up my thesis because I don't know how to. I think the 'evidence' I provide is one of the major things we should be looking at to analyze what makes sc2 good/bad. Hopefully by organizing it and sparking some discussion we can make some progress on this goal.

On August 30 2010 03:07 YoureFired wrote:
You do a good job explaining the types of splash, but what's your thesis? You're just running up and stating evidence without arguing anything.

EDIT oh and spider mines with 125 explosive damage were very important for dealing splash damage also

Yea spider mines are probably not a bad idea to include, although they aren't in sc2 unfortunately :p
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
August 29 2010 18:28 GMT
#6
Ok, I'll see if I can argue something.

The biggest difference I see here is that splash in SC2 is much more effective (or the units themselves are much more effective). Valkyries, infested terrans, firebats all fill very niche roles or are too weak. On the other hand, units like the colossus, high templar, siege tanks, fungal growth, hellions - all fill very integral roles in armies, whether it be to roast zerglings, storm MMG, shoot hydralisks, etc.

Also, spider mines = hellions for comparison's sake. Mineral sinks for mech builds that kill zealots/zerglings very quickly (but spider mines require much much much more micro and can also kill large units)
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
Hyde
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia14568 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 18:32:32
August 29 2010 18:31 GMT
#7
Psi storm and plague also damages allies and friendly units.
Irradiate also does the same (given that they are bio units).
Because when you left, Brood War was all spotlights and titans. Now, with the death of the big leagues, Brood War has moved to the basements and carparks. Now, Brood War is unlicensed brawls, lost teeth, and bloody fights for fistfulls of money - SirJolt
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24799 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 19:38:58
August 29 2010 19:37 GMT
#8
On August 30 2010 03:28 YoureFired wrote:
Ok, I'll see if I can argue something.

The biggest difference I see here is that splash in SC2 is much more effective (or the units themselves are much more effective). Valkyries, infested terrans, firebats all fill very niche roles or are too weak. On the other hand, units like the colossus, high templar, siege tanks, fungal growth, hellions - all fill very integral roles in armies, whether it be to roast zerglings, storm MMG, shoot hydralisks, etc.

Yeah. I think that's one thing that bothers me about sc2. Area of effect has in more cases become a staple rather than specialty.

On August 30 2010 03:31 Hyde wrote:
Psi storm and plague also damages allies and friendly units.
Irradiate also does the same (given that they are bio units).

Thanks I updated.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 22:26:49
August 29 2010 22:25 GMT
#9
On August 30 2010 03:15 hacklebeast wrote:
in sc1 nukes do 500 damage or 2/3 total health, not 1/2.

valks do not hurt allied or your own

I would double check that f-bats hurt allied units.



This is wrong.
Valks do hurt allied units.
F-bats also hurt allied units for sure.
I know this cuz it's the most DAMN annoying thing when your sair gets splashed by an allied valk while trying to kill a mutalisk or something in impossible maps. )=<

Sairs damage allies but not friendlies.
darkness overpowering
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24799 Posts
August 29 2010 23:31 GMT
#10
On August 30 2010 07:25 ghrur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2010 03:15 hacklebeast wrote:
in sc1 nukes do 500 damage or 2/3 total health, not 1/2.

valks do not hurt allied or your own

I would double check that f-bats hurt allied units.



This is wrong.
Valks do hurt allied units.
F-bats also hurt allied units for sure.
I know this cuz it's the most DAMN annoying thing when your sair gets splashed by an allied valk while trying to kill a mutalisk or something in impossible maps. )=<

Sairs damage allies but not friendlies.

Thanks I tried to update any inaccuracies in the OP.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
dudeman001
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2412 Posts
August 30 2010 00:56 GMT
#11
GAAAAAAAAAAAAR BANELINGS. As Terran I wish a baneling explosion would deal at least 5 damage to surrounding banelings, but alas that would make the efficiency of a unit you already sacrifice to use drop immensely. 6 banelings detonations and all of a sudden your clustered little exploders could all die simultaneously. I wouldn't say banelings should deal damage to friendly and/or allied units, but if anything I would say banelings that detonate from dying shouldn't immediately explode on the spot. Zerg doesn't even have to a-move, they just move

But yes, SC2 is a different game from SC1 and it'll be balanced in its own way. As Blizzard said when they first revealed SC2, they're not trying to reinvent Starcraft, they're trying to re-imagine it.
Sup.
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