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I just need to write and vent off some of the frustation and anger I have with the Sc2 ladder...
Ok so I started playing Sc2 when it came out and had a good amount of fun until I reached like between 600-700 in Diamond at that point I had 4X-2X something w/l.
Then I started to see alot more all-ins, ~80% of my games, and the majority of the other 20% were TvT. I don't really mind TvT all that much but I just got so fucking frustrated that even at "high" diamond I just face zergs who tries to "run by" my wall with 12 lings and protoss who just 4 gates and then either sit and make me kill all their shit or mostly leaves.
So after about 2 weeks of launch I just gave up because it just isn't fun anymore when people just all-in and either win because I fucked up or lost when I didin't.
The worst thing in my opinion with all this is that I just can't get better if I don't face opponents who does something that isn't a total all in.
Now I started to play again and I saw alot of people are over 1k points now and my question is: Is there alot less boring cheese etc. above ~700, or do I just need to stop with the ladder and just play customs to get people who don't cheese most of their games?
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If you hate laddering so much, why don't you just go over to the practice partners thread and hit up the multitudes of TL'ers for games?
I haven't really laddered for over 2 weeks now and mainly only play people from TL.
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Ye, I know about the PP thread and I played a few people, but there are quite a few times where people are either not online when I am right now or just laddering.
The thing that makes me hate this ladder so much thought is that when I just started playing sc1 and was at D/D+ there was still alot of standard games and it just keept getting better when you got higher. But it almost seems like it is the other way around in this game.
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I agree with you completely, although I find salvation in the little tournaments that are held ever so often. It's true that even at the higher levels in ladder there's a ton ton of all ins and cheesing.
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Have you seen MorroW vs. IdrA? There is your answer, there are All-in strategies at the very tip top of this game and they can win huge tournaments. Do you honestly think MorroW could have beat IdrA in a strait up, no All-in, no gimmick game? It doesn't get better and players don't play by some respectful understanding as 'no rush 20 minutes'..... people play dirty, they play how they think they have to play to win, regardless or 'cheap' or 'all in' or 'cheese'.
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Try playing as Zerg. Then your opponents don't even need to all-in, any timing attack can push your shit in.
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Have you seen MorroW vs. IdrA? There is your answer, there are All-in strategies at the very tip top of this game and they can win huge tournaments. Do you honestly think MorroW could have beat IdrA in a strait up, no All-in, no gimmick game? It doesn't get better and players don't play by some respectful understanding as 'no rush 20 minutes'..... people play dirty, they play how they think they have to play to win, regardless or 'cheap' or 'all in' or 'cheese'.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the occasional/clever cheese, but when the majority of your games is just vs all ins it gets to the point where it just becomes boring to play the game.
Try playing as Zerg. Then your opponents don't even need to all-in, any timing attack can push your shit in.
I started off-racing quite alot as Z now and I only really have big issues vs P all ins, granted most terrans aren't playing that well right now on the ladder.
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Its a new game, all these new players want to do is get to a high rank then play some custom games to 'look' cool. Just give it time before these new players get bored and we are left with the actual decent StarCraft players.
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i think i will probably just stop laddering once i hit diamond (pretty soon most likely) and just hit up #tlpickup whenever i want a game.
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Hm, that's unfortunate to hear you're struggling with the ladder. Honestly, in my opinion, once you've reached Diamond in ladder, you no longer really need to continue climbing. I'm sure at this point you can just ask TL players to get in on some games with you. Play the people that'll give you a good game!
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im at 850~ pts diamond and i rarely see cheese. maybe 5 out of my total 120 games
EDIT: cheese is all part of the game. all these cheesers help u get better in the game by providing you practice defending against cheese.
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On August 27 2010 04:11 GreatFall wrote:
Have you seen MorroW vs. IdrA? There is your answer, there are All-in strategies at the very tip top of this game and they can win huge tournaments. Do you honestly think MorroW could have beat IdrA in a strait up, no All-in, no gimmick game? It doesn't get better and players don't play by some respectful understanding as 'no rush 20 minutes'..... people play dirty, they play how they think they have to play to win, regardless or 'cheap' or 'all in' or 'cheese'.
Game 3 is a pretty good example of morrow beating idra "in a strait up, no All-in, no gimmick game"
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The entire point of competition is to win. If you are losing to all-ins, then it is your job to get better at defending against them. In highschool, the football team had an 6-0 record going into a home game. The other team only did reverses or double reverses or fake plays and we ended up getting crushed something like 30-14. They practiced and played again 4 weeks later and our team was prepared after 4 weeks or working to learn how to beat it and we won easily.
In chess, a new strategy will often arise and will be announced as "invincible". It then gets played a lot and the weaknesses come out. Scouting + knowing how to defend the different all ins = free wins for you.
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On August 27 2010 05:40 darmousseh wrote:
The entire point of competition is to win. If you are losing to all-ins, then it is your job to get better at defending against them. In highschool, the football team had an 6-0 record going into a home game. The other team only did reverses or double reverses or fake plays and we ended up getting crushed something like 30-14. They practiced and played again 4 weeks later and our team was prepared after 4 weeks or working to learn how to beat it and we won easily.
In chess, a new strategy will often arise and will be announced as "invincible". It then gets played a lot and the weaknesses come out. Scouting + knowing how to defend the different all ins = free wins for you.
I get that but my point wasn't that I loose to every single cheese/all in or whatever they do but that it happends almost every game I have played. The only time I have really lost badly to all ins, as in just not a small screw up on my part is when I just recently started playing Z and got 4 gated over and over, but that is just because I don't really know how to play against that yet.
And it's not always fun to get free wins just because someone did a all in and you just block in and they leave in rage, although the rage part be funny.
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I think darmousseh is right.
People have to realise that cheesy play is part of the game. Not every cheesy opening is supposted to be an all-in as well.
Especially at higher level, proxies, early aggressions etc, can be used to force you opponent to adapt so that you can lead the game, even it is going to be a long game.
Learn how to defend chessy builds and you'll be just fine and you will have your longer game unless your opponent is really bad and leaves after a failed chesse 
Loosing to an all-in every once in a while isnt too bad either, beacuse you remember that you can be aggressive in the beginning with some not standart builds as well and transition into late game later on.
I used to scout after my first gate a lot in my first ladder games but i realised that its much safer to scout after pylon, especially on 4player maps. An empty main of my opponent? keke, thanks for the free win.-> cancel Core, add gateways, stay defensive until the part of the game is reached were you can use you abilities to come back and counter.
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Sewi, I don't think Lewfen's main point was that cheeses and all-ins are bad-mannered or douchey or even super-annoying when used sparingly... or that he can't adapt to them and beat them.
It's that he's playing against the exact same, stale "strategy" over and over again, and that it's really boring. And this is a turn-off to playing the game. (It would be a turn-off to playing ANY game, if this were the case.) He knows how to deal with those builds (he's not losing to them). He just rolls his eyes, wins, and moves on to the next game (in hopes that it'll be something different). And, according to him, it's always the same old thing.
He's wondering if it ever changes- if a majority of higher tier players vary their play styles to incorporate many other builds and not just the same stale stuff that he's been experiencing.
[I guess the only way that would happen is if the all-in rushes become pretty much obsolete by proper scouting and counters. Then they'd be pretty much useless, unless you're playing against lower-level players who can't handle easier and cheesier attacks, eh?]
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Ok, thats annoying, but I find it hard to believe that its really 90% of the games.
I am in platin atm, not even diamont, and I get cheesed/all-ined around 2 out of 10 games.
Of course, some players dont know what dto do and go all in, but I dont think its that many and I think that this will stop even more when more viable builds get known by more players
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I'm rated 1165 at the moment, and I still find cheese in maybe 30-40% of my games. By cheese, I mean cannon rush, proxy gates, proxy reapers, baneling busts, and more stuff like that.
I very rarely see a big 1-base push (if I do it's one of Terrans insanely strong ones). Luckily, most of my games end up being 2+ bases.
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EPT
