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Are We Supposed to be Using More Immortals?

Blogs > Ndugu
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Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-25 23:59:55
August 25 2010 20:50 GMT
#1
-----------------------------------
UPDATED TO INCLUDE UNIT TESTER:
I went as close to 1000 min armies as possible to get a close to even money test. Gas costs vary, but the ratio is equal so it should show different value of immortals and stalkers. Multiple tests were done and remained pretty consistent.

These seem pretty accurate to what would happen in a battle where you both a+moved your armies at each other on a relatively open area. So each would benefit the same amount from Collosi behind them, or zealots in front of them, or whatever sentry micro you're rocking.

1000 mins hydra army vs 1000 min stalker or immortal
5 hydras remaining 0 stalkers

4 hydras left 0 immortals


1050 mins roach army vs 1000 min stalker or immortal


3 immortals left 0 roaches

9 roaches left 0 stalkers

525 mins roach, 500 mins hydra (mixed roach/hydra army) vs 1000 mins stalker or immortal

1-ish immortal left or 1 hydra left.

5 roaches 4 hydras remain 0 stalkers

So against a roach hydra army, it seems worth it to swap out Stalkers for Immortals even if its pure Hydra. Not accounting for mobility and such, so in a real situation, Stalkers are probably better in a pure hydra scenario, where they are only slightly worse than immortals. In a situation with ANY number of roaches, it seems worthwhile to swap out all or most of your stalker investment into immortals, if you can, without the threat of air. Basically, as few Stalkers as you can if you know your opponent is using any number of roaches.

Late game upgrades would have made the immortal even stronger since it benefits more per upgrade. Of note is that if its in an open area and all zealots can be hitting a unit from melee range, they are more cost-effective than immortals or stalkers.

So, in short, immortals are massively more effective versus a mixed roach/hydra army than stalkers are. This is probably meant to be the trade-off for shorter range, no air attack, slower, longer to build (can't warp in), etc. Its the more durable ground-only dragoon to the Stalkers flexible, fast, ground-to-air self. You trade off some flexibility and ease of use (since macroing up immortals to a battle is harder than stalkers) for a unit that does significantly better in a battle between ground armies.

If possible, mix immortals into your army in exchange for Stalkers if you feel you can do so. Obviously you want to always have some AA.

---------------------------

Sorry if this post is idiotic, but it's more of a quick question than a serious theory-craft. And yet I will type a lot. Verbose ftw

Two stalkers seem to me to be exactly the same as one immortal. Two stalkers is 20 (+8) and an immortal is 20(+30). These are on a 1.45 and a 1.44 cooldown, so the DPS difference should be pretty much on par with their damage difference. Two stalkers is 360 health/shields. An immortal is 200 health, but with 100 hardened shields. So ignoring hardened shields, you're trading 360 HP for 300, in exchange for +20 armored rather than +8. Hardened shields will, in many situations, make an immortal with hardened shields worth more than 360 HP, at 300. Both are 4 supply. Immortals gain +2(+2) per upgrade rather than +1.

It seems to me that against a pure-ground force that is heavy on units that don't ignore hardened shield (marauders, tanks, roaches), we should be laying down a second or even third Robo and just making TONS of immortals with any money we would have devoted to Stalkers. If there any chance of the immortal hitting something armored, it seems to be more cost-effective than Stalkers, with the caveat that it cant hit air.

I guess I'm already starting to see the arguments against my attempted point, though. 200/100 wasted on an extra Robotics facility. Crap 5 range and slow speed versus six range and high speed of stalkers means that it can get kited by Marauders and Stalkers very easily. The fact that hardened shields is only 100 of its shields means that 2x stalkers probably offers a bit more meat-shield against units that dont activate hardened shields. Assuming an EMP hits both stalkers or the immortal only, the Immortal still has more health as 200 HP > 180 from two stalkers, so it might be more efficient than Stalkers even against marauder/ghost.

If Starcraft II werent down id be in unit tester playing around with immortal efficiency compared to Stalkers in various situations, taking into account a small army size decrease in the immortal scenario to take into account the cost of teching.

It seems Protoss players are still having a lot of trouble with Marauders, and I wonder if laying down some more robo facilities and replacing your army's usual investment in stalkers with immortals would be worthwhile. Also, as late game PvZ gets better it seems mass roach (some hydra or corrupters or both) should do fairly well versus Stalker/Collosi (or zealot/whatever/Collosi)for cost. Perhaps us Toss players are going to need to be watching for a zerg player that remains heavy roach in late game and replace some of our stalker investment with immortals.

Thoughts?

*****
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25979 Posts
August 25 2010 20:54 GMT
#2
I just want to point out in your comparison-by-numbers, you ignored versatility. Stalkers more faster, can shoot air, and can Blink. I feel so much more free and mobile when I don't have Immortals in my army.

There was also a thread around here that showed Charge Zealots are greatly more efficient than Immortals against Marauders.
Moderator
Zalfor
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States1035 Posts
August 25 2010 20:55 GMT
#3
range is prob. the biggest issue.
555, kthxbai
Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-25 20:56:28
August 25 2010 20:55 GMT
#4
On August 26 2010 05:54 Chill wrote:
I just want to point out in your comparison-by-numbers, you ignored versatility. Stalkers more faster, can shoot air, and can Blink. I feel so much more free and mobile when I don't have Immortals in my army.

There was also a thread around here that showed Charge Zealots are greatly more efficient than Immortals against Marauders.


Absolutely, there are severals cons/pros to immortals and stalkers that I didn't mention. The 5 range is definitely the most painful when I try and use them effectively.

And chargelots are absolutely going to be the best bet versus Marauders, it just seems you can't go PURE chargelot or you'll reach a point where a choke point or something is going to cause your army to melt.

I'm more suggesting having immortals standing behind the Zealots over Stalkers, in some situations.
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
August 25 2010 20:58 GMT
#5
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=147371

Their talking about Phoenix are not viable either, in that blog.
:)
Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
August 25 2010 21:14 GMT
#6
I'm more suggesting having immortals standing behind the Zealots over Stalkers, in some situations.


Gonna expand on that with an examplate.

For example, I'm on cross-positions megalopolis and me and the Terran player are both on 2 expansions. Normally I go for Collosi and push before I think they'll have too many Vikings (usually with some hallucination/void Ray research just in time for the push to try and lure some fo the army out of position). The Collosi push is usually supported by Zealot stalker, as if I go too zealot heavy they'll lower their DPS because too few can hit the bioball at a time ( I cannot get a surround since they're planted in their natural. I can only hit them head-on). Hopefully, I strike the right ratio where my stalkers will be able to deal damage while my zealots damage-absorb the marauders. In late-game, once they get Vikings to deal with potential Void Rays and Collosi, Terran I face tend to go VERY marauder heavy if they stay bioball, so it can be expected the immortal DPS would be higher.

Since I'm expecting to dictate the terms of the fight, wont be able to get a surround and thus need some Stalkers OR (I theorize) immortals, and I Know they're Marauder heavy, by switching all my stalker cost into immortals, even having had to build more robotics facilities, it seems my army would be in a vastly better situation. My Collosi would inflict massive damage before dying. Stalkers wouldn't have been able to get in range of the vikings to kill them unless they wanted to suicide on marauders anyway, so its not like going immortal is a disadvantage in terms of protecting your collosi from vikings. My zealots will tank marauder-damage and then 100 shields of my immortals would tank it as well. They will be stuck with a bunch of useless Vikings after the Collosi die, that will melt faster to Immortal fire than Stalker fire if they choose to land. They wont even tank my immortal damage like they did Stalker damage (if a+moved, heh).

Its just a battle and an exact situation I've been in versus Terran in a ton of games. They're weary of moving out because on open-land my Chargelots will deal with their marauders vastly better and usually until they can build up an epic viking force that will slaughter my Collosi instantly.

I usually win it if I make no huge mistakes, but it seems a situation I could do vastly better in if I swapped out my Stalker investment, or most of it, in favor of investing in immortals.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-25 21:48:27
August 25 2010 21:47 GMT
#7
I find I'm getting raped by good protosses like nightend who add a lot of immortals. Fuck versatility. Once you get to midgame with colossus or templar all you want is a big army that kills everything. You only want stalkers for anti air so scouting can tell you when you want them.

problem with charge zealots, for example is that they die to kiting for any ranged units. Immortal zealot is much harder to deal with, maybe 4 sentries for force fields.

Range 5 is absolutely non issue with forcefields or colossus anyway.
OPSavioR
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1465 Posts
August 25 2010 21:59 GMT
#8
Interesting read...
i dunno lol
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
August 25 2010 23:27 GMT
#9
Immortals are better in the mid game in a collossus phoenix army imo. It's a struggle to get them early game.

I feel they're maybe underused vs zerg though, I'll need to do more tests though.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
August 25 2010 23:47 GMT
#10
I tend to think of stalkers as my anti kiting unit to some degree. It is true that chargelots can be kited. However, kiting is not nearly as effective if the chargelots are supported by stalkers and a few sentries. With spread out guardian shields and good force fields you can prevent effective kiting. Stalkers run faster than most ranged units. It actually seems to be more cost effective, for you opponent to stand and fight to the death rather than try to kite this mix.
:)
Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
August 26 2010 00:29 GMT
#11
Updated to include results from Unit Tester.
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