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Active: 633 users

Changes Made in Beta That Should Be Unmade?

Blogs > Ndugu
Post a Reply
Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-07 18:50:40
August 07 2010 17:58 GMT
#1
I figured I'd take a different approach to balance QQing. I'd look through the beta patches to see what changes were made and what their intentions were, and to see if, now that balance has been ironed out a bit more, some of the changes may have been overdone or made the game less interesting.

Beta patch notes: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_II_beta_patch

I think it’s possible that some of the changes made in the beta, while good at the time, ended up being overdone after balance changes (to all races) made later. For example, Terran was initially the worst race, and a lot of nerfs were made to Protoss and Zerg to correct this. Also, it seemed to be a trend that things that are cool or interesting were nerfed or increased in price. Maybe now that the balance is more solid, some of that can be undone in the interest of awesome and profit.

ZERG:

o Hatchery/Lair/Hive
+ Burrow research time increased from 50 seconds to 100 seconds.
+ Burrow research cost increased from 50 Minerals and 50 Vespene Gas to 100 Minerals and 100 Vespene Gas.


Somewhat obvious why this change should be undone: burrow is incredibly underused in the early or mid-game due to just how easy it is to lose to early pressure and the research doesn't provide much benefit. Its one of the coolest and most iconic abilities in Starcraft and it needs to see more use. Also, it would theoretically provide a slight net buff to Zerg, which many argue is needed.

Roach and infestor movement speed while burrowed was nerfed from 2 to 1.4.


Infestors were later on returned back to 2, but roaches weren't. Roach burrow-move is rather underused and would be somewhat better, and cooler, if roaches moved a bit faster. No real huge balance reason for them not to. In SCII burrowing could use some help, since the unborowing animation gives your enemy a free volley at you even if they don't bother to detect you, in which case they can get quite a bit

Fungal Growth projectile removed; Units in the target area are now instantly hit.


I have seen many explain why this change was bad. Instant spells remove an element of skill from the game-- dodging. People make the same complaint about EMP. As-is, people stick to mech in TvP because of fear of fungal growth and banelings. Making fungal growth a projectile would allow Bio to be (more) viable versus Zerg, making the matchup more interesting. Assuming this were changed back, it would be a net buff to Terran in TvZ, since they could now dodge fungals with hellions and bio armies, meaning Terran wouldn't HAVE to go mech.

That being said, having it be instant-cast but weak makes it interesting in terms of shutting down fast units like lings, hellions, and mutas. =/ Not exactly sure on my feelings about this, but figured I'd offer it for discussion. Would love to see infestors more viable in ZvZ to break sling/bling into muta.


Fungal Growth: The damage done by this ability has decreased from 48 to 36.

The above being said, I don't think Fungal growth necessarily needs to be nerfed. Returning the damage to its originally levels, with projectile, would offer a good balance. I imagine this is what the math spreadsheets originally said in Blizzard HQ. ^^ It can be dodged by good players, but if missed it will do a bit more damage.

• Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit.
• Neural Parasite research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds.
• Neural Parasite can now target Air units.
• Neural Parasite energy cost increased from 50 to 100.

Blizzard situation report: The changes to Neural Parasite are there to try to protect the Ultralisk from being mind controlled too easily. It is also consistent with what we think the power level of the ability is against Thor and other units. We have also buffed the ability to allow it to target air units so you can use it as a defense against Void Rays.


The reason offered for this change was to buff Ultralisks in ZvZ and Thors in TvZ. Ultralisks are no longer an issue due to immunity to mind control, and as many can attest, Thors do not really need this protection (siege tanks have longer than range 9 anyway). (As a side note, I think the Ultralisk change is sloppy and unintuitive. It just feels weird that a unit is pre-emptively immune to things that should counter it, especially the Thor ability that no one in their right mind ever gets). Collosi, with 9 range, aren't too badly off and this shouldn't affect PvZ much. Slight buff to Zerg in TvZ to undo this change. Might see slightly more infestors in PVZ, but not in a major buff to Zerg way, more as an alternative way to counter Collosi.

Neural parasite reduced to 12 second duration (from infinite).

This nerf made that VERY end of beta makes the change to research-free neural parasite a bit less extreme than it was in beta.
------------
SUMMARY:
Overall, the net effect of undoing all of these changes would be:

Increased use of burrow by Zerg, making detection more important when playing against them. This change, along with making roach burrow movement speed back to 2.0, would hopefully make burrow-roaches more worthwhile and viable. Making fungal growth a projectile would make bio more viable against Zerg, so Terran players wouldn't have to ONLY play mech against Zerg. Making neural parasite not require research would make investing in infestors slightly less risky, since less time and money must be spent before they can be useful. It would mostly prove a slight nerf to Terran mech in TvZ, which most will argue is necessary.

PROTOSS:

Dark Shrine
• Build time increased from 80 seconds to 100 seconds.
• Cost increased from 100 Minerals and 200 Vespene Gas to 100 Minerals and 250 Vespene Gas.


I think the reasons for changing this are somewhat obvious. In beta, when this change was made, everyone basically said "Wtf?" As Dark Templar were already very underused.

Observer
• Cost increased from 25 Minerals and 75 Vespene Gas to 50 Minerals and 100 Vespene Gas.
• Build time increased from 33 seconds to 40 seconds.


Anyone who's played as Protoss and dealt with a Terran aggressively making use of cloaked units and scan/raven's to snipe observers understands why this should be changed back.


Mothership
• The build time for this unit has increased from 120 to 160.
• The food cost of this unit has increased from 6 to 8.
• The number of shots fired by this unit has decreased from 8 to 6.
• The shield of this unit has decreased from 400 to 350.
• The health of this unit has decreased from 400 to 350.
• The acceleration of this unit has decreased from 1.3125 to 0.3125.
• The deceleration of this unit has increased from 0 to 1.


Some of this should be undone. I think speed has already been increased and acceleration kept low. I think the build time should be lowered, if nothing else. The 400/400 investment takes way too long to bring any benefits (not even counting the uber expensive fleat beacon). In almost every pro-game I've seen a mothership attempted, the game has been borderline lost while waiting for it to build.

Also, while endless QQ got ultralisks significantly buffed, Carriers have always been and are still meh. Those saying its because "Void Rays do their job better" are oversimplifying.
I think a simple build time fix would give them a SHOT in 1v1, as, once again, the investment of a fleet beacon and then the cost of a carrier, and still having to wait FOREVER for it to build is enough time for a game to be lost. Usually, a carrier gets scouted before its done building, and before it even finishes the enemy will have a couple of vikings or corrupters (if they even need to adjust their army to deal with them ^^)

TERRAN:

Raven
• Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6.
• Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2.
• Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core.


I am yet to see Raven's get used for seeker missile in a successful way. It is just too easy to kite. Range nerf might want to get undone so that Raven's see a bit more play.

Terran faired pretty well with patching in beta, so this section is small.

Malgrif
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1095 Posts
August 07 2010 18:20 GMT
#2
On August 08 2010 02:58 Ndugu wrote:

TERRAN:

Show nested quote +
Raven
• Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6.
• Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2.
• Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core.


I am yet to see Raven's get used for seeker missile in a successful way. It is just too easy to kite. Range nerf might want to get undone so that Raven's see a bit more play.

Terran faired pretty well with patching in beta, so this section is small.

pretty much anything a raven with a HSM could do puts the raven in too much of a risky situation, and 200 gas isn't something that's worth 100splash damage. tanks usually do a much better job if splash is needed, i kinda agree that HSM is kind of a worthless ability right now, but changing it back further solidifies the belief that terran is a race of super ranged fighters. i don't think changing it back to the way it was would be very balanced.
for there to be pro there has to be noob.
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9759 Posts
August 07 2010 18:30 GMT
#3
On August 08 2010 03:20 Malgrif wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2010 02:58 Ndugu wrote:

TERRAN:

Raven
• Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6.
• Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2.
• Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core.


I am yet to see Raven's get used for seeker missile in a successful way. It is just too easy to kite. Range nerf might want to get undone so that Raven's see a bit more play.

Terran faired pretty well with patching in beta, so this section is small.

pretty much anything a raven with a HSM could do puts the raven in too much of a risky situation, and 200 gas isn't something that's worth 100splash damage. tanks usually do a much better job if splash is needed, i kinda agree that HSM is kind of a worthless ability right now, but changing it back further solidifies the belief that terran is a race of super ranged fighters. i don't think changing it back to the way it was would be very balanced.

personally, i'd rather see some irradiate-ish thing. no splash, decent range (maybe 7 or 8), and like snipe except non-bio units :D

ghost/raven and snipe/hsm replacement would be the ultimate humiliation tactic.
boomer hands
Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
August 07 2010 18:48 GMT
#4
On August 08 2010 03:20 Malgrif wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2010 02:58 Ndugu wrote:

TERRAN:

Raven
• Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6.
• Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2.
• Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core.


I am yet to see Raven's get used for seeker missile in a successful way. It is just too easy to kite. Range nerf might want to get undone so that Raven's see a bit more play.

Terran faired pretty well with patching in beta, so this section is small.

pretty much anything a raven with a HSM could do puts the raven in too much of a risky situation, and 200 gas isn't something that's worth 100splash damage. tanks usually do a much better job if splash is needed, i kinda agree that HSM is kind of a worthless ability right now, but changing it back further solidifies the belief that terran is a race of super ranged fighters. i don't think changing it back to the way it was would be very balanced.


The HSM buff might correspond well with some of the zerg buffs I suggest.

I swear, I'm not just pretending to be a Protoss player XD
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
August 07 2010 18:49 GMT
#5
I really, really hate the 100 gas obs. You already have to sacrifice building other robotics bay units, why does it take so freaking long to build and cost so much gas? It makes PvP feel really dicey... should I build an obs because I feel like he might be going DT? Well crap, he went robo and has more immortals than me. It's not like you can build another robo either, since they suck up so much gas. Cannons, sure... but why not just revert back to a faster Dark Shrine and cheaper obs? It's kind of the same dynamic in PvT too, since if they do an early rush and you get an obs because you're worried about banshees, well, crap.


Of course, this problem is also partly because the maps are so ridiculously small.
canucks12
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada812 Posts
August 07 2010 19:07 GMT
#6
Just because something is underused -> roach burrowed moving - it does not mean that it has to be changed. It is a good tactic regardless of the roach movement speed and I think that eventually we will see it being used more.
Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
August 07 2010 19:15 GMT
#7
On August 08 2010 04:07 canucks12 wrote:
Just because something is underused -> roach burrowed moving - it does not mean that it has to be changed. It is a good tactic regardless of the roach movement speed and I think that eventually we will see it being used more.


I definitely agree. That being said, trying to figure out what things are underused because they just aren't cost-effective or practical at the stages of the game where they'd be useful is a great way, in my opinion, to make the game more fun and dynamic to play and spectate.

To me, the roach movement speed not getting buffed back to 2 was an oversight when they decided to increase the speed for infestors as well. It doesn't really make them stronger in any significant way, just a bit more mobile.

Again, I'm not saying "Let's make these changes wholesale because I said so!". Just food for thought :D
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