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Active: 7789 users

Mistaking cause and consequence

Blogs > teekesselchen
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teekesselchen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany886 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-09 20:54:25
July 09 2010 20:48 GMT
#1
Hey,
Just a few minutes ago I found this article:

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/0,1518,705542,00.html

Since few people here will be able to understand german, here comes a short conclusion:
A study shows that obesity is a cause of physical inactivity and not vice versa.
British scientists say that most studies about obesity are cross-sectional study that only test at one point of time but not over a period, thus they cannot distinguish between cause and consequence.
These scientists made a study in which they observed children over several years. If children of age seven had a higher body fat percentage, they were likely to decrease their physical activity afterwards.
Final note about this one: I don't doubt physical activity or sports to be important.

Actually I didn't think that much about the contents of this article but rather about a thought I had some time ago:
Often I read articles about scientific studies which observe two values, such as (any random made up example) time of playing Starcraft per week and IQ. Then, the scientists (or sometimes only the writing journalist) immidiatly draw a conclusion. Such as playing Starcraft makes people smart for the example above.
But often they have no evidence whatsoever that this relationship is true. Maybe it's just that low-IQ-people don't like Starcraft so the average IQ of starcraft players is higher than average of their age brackets.

One of the most stupid conclusions I ever heard of was made up by Christian Pfeiffer (criminologist and director of the criminolical research institute of Lower Saxony, also former justice minister of Lower Saxony):
Playing violent video games makes people more agressive and is a keystone of kids becoming spree killers. Some of you might have heard of the three or four spree killings at german schools over the last ten years. Since two or three of them played violent games, many politicians and low quality media (BILD for example) started stating that shooter games would make young peoples loosing sense of reality, make them angry and violent and help them to improve their aim for real guns.

To get the arch to the original topic:
Isn't it just absolutely logical that guys who are agressive, violent and dream of shooting others play games that display violence? Quite obviously they like to see themselves as persons that others fear and who are superior to other people. This is certainly a thing that can be seen in video games if the player wishes to. Unsurprisingly, the police stated that Robert Steinhäuser (I think he was the first spree killer that became famous in this debate, possibly just because there weren't any killing sprees of a long long time before) did play Counter-Strike, but not for a long time. I guess he just didn't have the patience to develope skills to realize the image he wanted to have ingame. Rather, he played games like Doom (single player) which certainly any idiot could win and feel like a god compared to the AI monsters.
This would mean that "Playing violent video games" does not lead to "Higher risk of becoming a violent spree killer", but rather that both of these traits are a consequence of the same cause, what would make "playing violent video games" a symptom (in some rare cases only of course), but not a cause and would make forbiddance absolutely pointless.

I wish I had some more examples since I have this feeling that some guys didn't think about cause and consequence carefully every few days, sadly my memory is bad in such things. So I'll just take the first article that fits to this kind of thinking (even though it's very remotely):
"Small people get a heart condition more likely"
The only data that has been collected is the size of persons and their history of cardiac problems/illnesses. So it is possible that having a weak and prone heart leads to a small body size or that both of these traits are related to some other cause, but are not cause and consequence to each other.

You might slightly notice that I had some arguments with teachers at school about this (also, sometimes a problem to finish certain tests in time °_°) although I try to keep such arguments short
(actually it led to very good results in biology, given that I had the time -some tests scored rather badly compared to my skills because I wasted too much time on it-, and bad ones in religious education)

I hope someone cares or feel the same out there, I really feel that many people don't think twice about cause and consequence and gain many hasty and wrong ideas from that.


*****
When they were introduced, he made a witticism, hoping to be liked. She laughed extremely hard, hoping to be liked. Then each drove home alone, staring straight ahead, with the very same twist to their faces.
Thratur
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada917 Posts
July 09 2010 20:59 GMT
#2
I refer to RaGe's sig.
SirJolt
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
the Dagon Knight4014 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-09 21:11:37
July 09 2010 21:11 GMT
#3
This is a fairly common criticism of academic work. Too often very solid research is summed up by saying that, "X and Y are related in Z way," where Z is basically just the researcher's assumption.

It happens often in anthropology; it's sad when you're reading someone's work and they seem to have things so well collected only to come to a bizarre conclusion
Moderator@SirJolt
teekesselchen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany886 Posts
July 09 2010 21:22 GMT
#4
On July 10 2010 06:11 SirJolt wrote:
This is a fairly common criticism of academic work. Too often very solid research is summed up by saying that, "X and Y are related in Z way," where Z is basically just the researcher's assumption.

It happens often in anthropology; it's sad when you're reading someone's work and they seem to have things so well collected only to come to a bizarre conclusion


Sadly, this criticism doesn't seem to be too popular. Politicians and certain scientists keep doing this and nearly no people care about it - all they see is the conclusion, then they possibly check upon the kind of data that was collected and say "Well, the conclusion must be right since he's a scientist and the data is in some way related to that so it must be like it's written down here.". Or, in case of politicians, they accept it as a truth when they like the person or don't if they don't like the politician...
When they were introduced, he made a witticism, hoping to be liked. She laughed extremely hard, hoping to be liked. Then each drove home alone, staring straight ahead, with the very same twist to their faces.
glassmazarin
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Sweden158 Posts
July 09 2010 21:35 GMT
#5
I completely agree, this happens way to often. It also reminds me ot this,

[image loading]
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
July 09 2010 22:31 GMT
#6
I think it's mostly the media (some teachers as well unfortunately) that are trying to sell correlation for causation. Obviously causation makes a connection much more intriguing and interesting to write about.

On the other hand, there are some very basic methodology concepts that even postgraduates still get wrong (like confusing probability of correlation being chance and strength of correlation).
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
G_G
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada178 Posts
July 10 2010 01:00 GMT
#7
This has been an ongoing debate in many countries. It's always brought up, politicians bank off of it, people write books about it and cash in, then nothing comes of it.

Also,



Oddysay
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada597 Posts
July 10 2010 01:03 GMT
#8
cookie are better with milk

im understand this topic good ? yes ?
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
July 10 2010 01:13 GMT
#9
On July 10 2010 06:35 glassmazarin wrote:
I completely agree, this happens way to often. It also reminds me ot this,

[image loading]


are you implying that the confounding factor is time?? blasphemy!

[image loading]
sources:
This year is set to be the coolest since 2000, according to a preliminary estimate of global average temperature that is due to be released next week by the Met Office. The global average for 2008 should come in close to 14.3C, which is 0.14C below the average temperature for 2001-07.

-http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/dec/05/climate-change-weather

The 2008 figures surpass all figures for hijacked vessels and hostages taken recorded by the PRC since it began its worldwide reporting function.

-http://www.icc-ccs.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=332:imb-reports-unprecedented-rise-in-maritime-hijackings&catid=60:news&Itemid=51

=)
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
Redmark
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada2129 Posts
July 10 2010 01:14 GMT
#10
On July 10 2010 06:35 glassmazarin wrote:
I completely agree, this happens way to often. It also reminds me ot this,

[image loading]

Those axes should really be switched, no? Spaghetti screwed up on that one.
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