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On June 10 2010 04:54 Sentenal wrote:
I can't see posts like this as anything other than trolling. Yeah, you said it is satire. But the premise behind this "satire", is implying that BW is as balanced as SC2, which just isn't true.
That's clearly not his point, nor is the premise based on what you stated. He was clearly making a point about how seemingly overwhelming imbalances can be overcome with shifts in the metagame and as players' skill progresses.
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Good job making fun one of the very few posts made in months that had a logical and intelegent argument.
O wait what happened 3 days after that thread was made? Mech got nerfed.
You sir fail.
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On June 10 2010 05:35 QibingZero wrote:
In contrast, how much room is there really to improve in SC2?
It depends on how much people try to improve, rather than simply complaining.
There may be a much bigger RTS community now than when Brood War came out, but most of it is clueless.
Coming from a fighting game background, I can say that RTS games' balance depend much much more on the community and metagame. If you have an imbalanced character in Street Fighter, you're stuck with an imbalanced character. If you have an imbalanced carrier rush strategy, 4-pool YEAAAAAHHHH
I would say that the onus to balance this game is more on us than on Blizzard, which honestly should just focus on Battle.net. As a fairly low-level player, no one who isn't contributing to balance at the top level should be saying anything about Starcraft 2's limits. Even those people aren't qualified enough, because simply not enough meaningful games have been played. Most people simply spam the same builds they see other people use over and over, which does nothing.
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On June 10 2010 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Good job making fun one of the very few posts made in months that had a logical and intelegent argument.
O wait what happened 3 days after that thread was made? Mech got nerfed.
You sir fail.
For all you know that thread could have had nothing to do with it, logical and intelligent argument LOL. I seriously doubt you had enough time to test all the possibilities and counters, even TLO the best random player there is with no bias said its fine. When SC1 mech was discovered it absolutely ripped apart every zerg for 2-3 months until they could find a playstyle that could beat it, and now zerg can handle mech fine.
You also totally missed his point
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There is no need to try to hide yourself by calling it a satire. You clearly call out Root, and the points we make in the threads. You have proven nothing, and I don't understand why you think you are someone to be listened to.
You should probably go play cnc again and hang out on that sweet gamereplays site and maybe they will listen to you Avilo.
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On June 10 2010 06:05 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Good job making fun one of the very few posts made in months that had a logical and intelegent argument.
O wait what happened 3 days after that thread was made? Mech got nerfed.
You sir fail. For all you know that thread could have had nothing to do with it, logical and intelligent argument LOL. I seriously doubt you had enough time to test all the possibilities and counters, even TLO the best random player there is with no bias said its fine. When SC1 mech was discovered it absolutely ripped apart every zerg for 2-3 months until they could find a playstyle that could beat it, and now zerg can handle mech fine. You also totally missed his point
i didn't say that thread caused the mech nerf, but I think it's stupid to make fun of a thread that ended up predicting the next patch.
And just because TLO says something does not make it true. He's one of the best in the world but what he says is not word of god.
Seriously I don't know how this thread is not closed. The OP goes out of his way to harass a great deal of awesome posters on this site, and some amazing fucking gamers at that. And you try and disguise it as satire, but you're just being a prick.
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AHAHAH XD in sc2 i have never find nothing real imbalanced..simply some units are going to be used as much as scount in bw (ultra, mothership,..) and this is sad :|
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Oh Avilo kind of how you thought tvz was imba for Z if the game went past 10 minutes? Where it was instant win for zerg? Your such a hypocrite man its sad but to take your post more "seriously" no matter what there will be cries for imbalance there are still posts on broodwar on how pvz is imba but its just because the protoss doesn't know how to play get used to it, it'll be like this for every game you play.
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This reminds of going through the raids from vanilla wow to the lich king. Initially very few guilds could even see the end game boss not to mention defeat it. With tbc more guilds were able to see the final boss and now in lich king almost every guild sees it. In one part, players have gotten used to the difficulties in the fights as normal dungeons have mechanics which were considered difficult in tbc. Eventually blizzard has found it difficult to challenge people without handicapping players in some way (20% dodge nerf for tanks in a raid). Balancing becomes difficult in a game with so many variables. For PvP in wow, they began gave the classes similar abilities because they found it the easiest way to balance. With an RTS, however, with races as different as in starcraft, they will have a hard time balancing if there are units with extremely unique abilities, then the game will never be balanced perfectly. With data, it will get closer, but eventually someone will find a specific strategy that is extremely good and blizzard will have to nerf some unit. I think blizzard is doing a good job with sc2 so far. Give them 2-3 years before the game feels really balanced though.
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I think that the only "real" were the mech change and the immortal time going up (maybe others but I think those were the biggest). I think everything else was changed, not because the game is imbalanced its because they didnt like the dynamic.
Example. PvP Warpgate rush, the warpgate time was increased 4fold because they didnt like the dynamic of every PvP and PvT being a warpgate rush. I think the roach 2 supply nerf was because the roach was imbalanced, they just didnt like the way a Z could replenish so many on so little bases.
I really like that form of balancing. That they realize the community is going to work around problems like that, but they dont want that certain element that is going to be worked around to be there or have to be worked around.
And I actually do agree with the mech change, not because it was imbalanced, but because it changes the dynamic of tank/hellion critical mass. Tanks still kill things in 3 shots, its just they do less splash.
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On June 10 2010 04:45 avilo wrote:
All top players know this, especially all of rootz x17 clan that have extensively tested it by themselves in their own practice games.
LOL bitchslapped. That is harsh.
By the way, for people who still seem to be missing the point, this isn't about Blizzard doing a bad job with patching. It's just about the imbalance claims all over TL during the beta, which was partially solved by the new forum rules where you needed 8 diamond level replays, etc.
The biggest one was the mech imba thread for sure, though. I really wish Blizzard didn't fuck over tanks so that we could see some TLO vs mech showmatches though.
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On June 10 2010 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Good job making fun one of the very few posts made in months that had a logical and intelegent argument.
O wait what happened 3 days after that thread was made? Mech got nerfed.
You sir fail.
actually what happened was when enough people whined...they got what they wanted. It happened with every CnC game from EA except in worse fashion, as they were bad enough to listen to the official forums for balance suggestions.
teamliquid is amazing and awesome and has the most knowledgeable people, but that does not make every balance argument posted here right, or every mass whine fest correct either. Just because known people are backing an argument does not make them automatically correct.
the amount of people in that one thread you speak of were trying to support their arguments and whining by listing off other "top players" that also agreed. That's not how balance arguments should be. The few people that had a level head were TLO and others i don't remember, that knew there was more to be explored, and not so quick to blame things on being imbalanced.
You guys had a solid backing for your whine thread, supported by an entire clan of whiners - none of whom are balance developers. You also had a very, very small sample size of games and no time for the game to develop before making your supremely ultimate personal judgement's on balance.
TLO was the most sane person in that thread.
On June 10 2010 06:05 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Good job making fun one of the very few posts made in months that had a logical and intelegent argument.
O wait what happened 3 days after that thread was made? Mech got nerfed.
You sir fail. For all you know that thread could have had nothing to do with it, logical and intelligent argument LOL. I seriously doubt you had enough time to test all the possibilities and counters, even TLO the best random player there is with no bias said its fine. When SC1 mech was discovered it absolutely ripped apart every zerg for 2-3 months until they could find a playstyle that could beat it, and now zerg can handle mech fine. You also totally missed his point
yep
On June 10 2010 06:09 skYfiVe wrote:
There is no need to try to hide yourself by calling it a satire. You clearly call out Root, and the points we make in the threads. You have proven nothing, and I don't understand why you think you are someone to be listened to.
You should probably go play cnc again and hang out on that sweet gamereplays site and maybe they will listen to you Avilo.
You missed the entire point of the thread.
On June 10 2010 06:15 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 06:05 EleanorRIgby wrote:On June 10 2010 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Good job making fun one of the very few posts made in months that had a logical and intelegent argument.
O wait what happened 3 days after that thread was made? Mech got nerfed.
You sir fail. For all you know that thread could have had nothing to do with it, logical and intelligent argument LOL. I seriously doubt you had enough time to test all the possibilities and counters, even TLO the best random player there is with no bias said its fine. When SC1 mech was discovered it absolutely ripped apart every zerg for 2-3 months until they could find a playstyle that could beat it, and now zerg can handle mech fine. You also totally missed his point i didn't say that thread caused the mech nerf, but I think it's stupid to make fun of a thread that ended up predicting the next patch. And just because TLO says something does not make it true. He's one of the best in the world but what he says is not word of god. Seriously I don't know how this thread is not closed. The OP goes out of his way to harass a great deal of awesome posters on this site, and some amazing fucking gamers at that. And you try and disguise it as satire, but you're just being a prick.
I think one of the great things about TL is that people are pretty open with opinions and such. I am not harrassing anyone, I am trying to make a point about beta and how incessive the whining became towards the end.
There's nothing wrong with people finding a strategy to be too strong. That may be the case.
There is something wrong when people start to become biased and so absorbed that "they are right" against something being too strong when there has been no time for anything else to develop. It's bad balance feedback, and a bad way to go about beta.
Players should actively be trying to improve and play the game as is each patch without this constant thought of "imba" in their head.
Pre-beta, this is how the SC forums were here. The talk was always of "how to get better" and what to do better to improve your play to beat something, not a fast declaration 1 week after a strat was out that it was "imba" and for blizzard to nerf it.
when SC1 mech tvz play became popular, there was a period of time where people were figuring out how to best play against mech, and then everyone realized it was not as imba as it seemed.
same happened with zvp trends in SC1 with p FE, and Z 5 hatch hydra types of play. Time passed and it was found that strats were not imbalanced. Reaver sair at a time in brood war was thought unstoppable for a little bit and then people re-discovered +3 armor devourers late game.
On June 10 2010 05:34 Tropics wrote:
how you know your joke post is bad:
you have to point out its a joke post before you make it
its not funny, and just because you're so incredibly butthurt about mech getting nerfed you have to make a "joke" post about brood war to try and prove how right you are about balance?
you are the most self righteous poster with the worst opinions
It's not meant to be funny. It is actually quite sad.
As for myself, I have agreed with every blizz patch, but the last patch for myself at least, the jury was still out on whether mech was imbalanced. That is the point I am trying to make.
Not enough time had passed for people to make such bold statements as a strategy being instant win late game. Interesting you call me self-righteous when I have always been one of the posters advocating to give strats time to develop and see the counters and not be so quick to claim "imba."
i'm not trying to "prove myself right," I want SC2 to be as balanced as possible like everyone else. But the incessant whining and arrogance of some beta players the last week or two of beta was just horrible.
more time has to pass before you can absolutely conclude something as imba. I'm using brood war as an example, because we all learned that things that seemed imbalanced in brood war were far from being imbalanced.
players + blizzard last beta patch did not give enough time for anything to develop. that's all i'm trying to point out. aside from that, please point out some of my posts where I have "worst opinions" and am "self-righteous" - I would like to see those.
Maybe you meant i'm rather blunt and to the point and not afraid to have an opinion contrary to popular opinion and other "top players's opinions." dunno 
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How does this warrant a new thread? Theres already a thread on this entire topic thats like 40 pages you argued the exact same points in that thread already. Wow calling my thread stupid in another place I got your point the first 5 damn times.
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So according to your theory Blizzard should not do any balance changes to SC2 for years until everything is figured out? So 3 Warpgate Rush was not broken it was just a some people qq'ing about it?
What's that word after Starcraft 2 when you load it up each time? Isn't it beta? Like "hey we don't know if this shit has problems so test it out for us?"
When I could not even get amazing players like Artosis to play in a KOTH because ZvT was so broken there is a problem.
Calling out Raelcun is pretty fucking low man. Obvious trolls are obvious.
To make it even worse you called .Root X17. Wow....................................
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Okay heres a real response because to quote KiwiKaki "This shit brings my piss to a boil." You have from the start COMPLETELY missed the entire point of the how to fix TvZ Mech thread. The one and only purpose of that thread was to address the issue that lategame you could not beat Mech there was no possible way once they got rolling. At least in broodwar once their vessel count was starting to climb you could pick it off with scourges, plague, all sorts of options betweens spells and units to try and kill their vessels. The vessels HAD to wander the map because if they didn't get irradiates on the ultras and pick of defilers they would lose so it gave the zerg a chance to drop their count.
In starcraft2 ravens are disgusting, the only units lategame that CAN kill them are completely nullified by dropping 3+ point defense drones. Hydras are just bad vs mech so you can throw them out, muta are alright but you need a shit ton of them, corruptors fire so slowly that point defense drones eat them alive. Basically in SC2 as opposed to BW if they get 6+ ravens you're fucked at least in BW you had a chance to kill some vessels and you were alive. Before the change in SC2 to tanks you were FORCED to do a timing attack so really good players like qxc who have refined mech to a defensive art if they survive long enough basically win. It goes from being a RTS to a tower defense game, could you set up an impenetrable tank line, this is not an acceptable level of balance is what I argued because it was forcing a particular style of play from the zerg and there were NO options. You could go allin or you could hope the terran makes a mistake.
In starcraft2 the major difference between ravens and vessels is there is no threat on the zerg army big enough that forces him to put his ravens in a vulnerable position. Add in sensor towers and it's Gee fuckin Gee once he gets more than about 6 or 7 ravens out because you just couldn't break the tanks with roaches and ultras. But as it stands now it's still difficult but it's possible because of the tank nerf so this shouldn't even be discussed you're basically just calling out root and saying they're noobs for complaining. But according to your logic our thread caused the nerf are you fucking kidding? Go look at the thread again the patch acme out less than 24 hours after I started it theres no way my thread was a direct cause of the patch grow up.
PS: Manner up, don't call root x17 unless you think you can beat them care to back up those words?
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On June 10 2010 04:45 avilo wrote:
Disclaimer: this is meant to be a satirical post pointing out how in the last few patches of beta before it went down, there was massive whining and such going on rather than playing the game and letting it develop.
I re-dl'd SC1 to my laptop and played a game or two and blizzard really needs to do some things asap b4 this game goes downhill (you can already see this with Flash games, turtle 200/200 freewin because T mech is unstoppable vs Z!)
"How to fix T mech"
This needs to be fixed, I would post some example replays, but it is a known about issue.
Maybe I should be like a certain other thread in SC2 Beta and post a OP with 2 replays from a miniscule sample size compared to the entire rest of the beta and judge balance off of that. But sadly I do not have that luxury or arrogance.
It is impossible for Z to win late game. Once T gets their mech ball rolling, Zerg just loses. Everything they do dies to tank fire, and goliaths are too strong so there's no point in building mutalisks.
And don't tell me drops work, with all those comsat scans over and over and mines to spot, it's impossible to get a drop off into 5000 turrets that only cost 75 minerals.
And then late game, that viking/raven vesse cloud kills all muta so it is just impossible to do anything versus a turtling terran. This needs to be fixed asap before more progaming goes on or iccup games where a few guys turtle to 200/200 without attacking because it's just freewin for TvZ.
"Vultures are too powerful"
These things only cost 75 minerals and you get three free explosive devices that can take up to like 3-4x their cost in units and you can't even see them. How is this fair?
Arbiters need a nerf.
This is just pretty crazy. You can instantly have your army almost anywhere on the map from having 4+ arbiters. Do you realize how imbalanced that is? No other race can do this, and it's cheap to do too, and all your units get cloaked! Imagine SC2 with the ability to build more than 1 mother ship. Shivers....
Blizzard really needs to look at this and patch it, but on the other hand, Terran is imba because Flash plays it perfect so it's ok.
I don't know how this game ever got to be so good...Blizzard missed all these nerfs that were obvious. Bio STILL is not viable as standard in tvp, did blizzard miss this? The game must be broken, and tanks should be nerfed some so bio is more viable. It's just tank tank tank.
Maybe if we whine enough, blizzard will nerf siege tanks in 1.17? We can even post a few select replays as evidence and make a 30 page whine thread about it rather than exhaust all other possible solutions...it's just impossible for Zerg/Protoss to beat that tank ball.
All top players know this, especially all of rootz x17 clan that have extensively tested it by themselves in their own practice games.
I dunno man, I'm trying to get back into brood war, but it seems blizzard needs to balance all this stuff that is too powerful pretty soon or the game is gonna end up trash.
Maybe your just horrible at the game or you just can't handle the pressure your opponent throws at you.
+ Show Spoiler +Need some whine with that cheese?
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On June 10 2010 08:58 FraCuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 04:45 avilo wrote:
Disclaimer: this is meant to be a satirical post pointing out how in the last few patches of beta before it went down, there was massive whining and such going on rather than playing the game and letting it develop.
I re-dl'd SC1 to my laptop and played a game or two and blizzard really needs to do some things asap b4 this game goes downhill (you can already see this with Flash games, turtle 200/200 freewin because T mech is unstoppable vs Z!)
"How to fix T mech"
This needs to be fixed, I would post some example replays, but it is a known about issue.
Maybe I should be like a certain other thread in SC2 Beta and post a OP with 2 replays from a miniscule sample size compared to the entire rest of the beta and judge balance off of that. But sadly I do not have that luxury or arrogance.
It is impossible for Z to win late game. Once T gets their mech ball rolling, Zerg just loses. Everything they do dies to tank fire, and goliaths are too strong so there's no point in building mutalisks.
And don't tell me drops work, with all those comsat scans over and over and mines to spot, it's impossible to get a drop off into 5000 turrets that only cost 75 minerals.
And then late game, that viking/raven vesse cloud kills all muta so it is just impossible to do anything versus a turtling terran. This needs to be fixed asap before more progaming goes on or iccup games where a few guys turtle to 200/200 without attacking because it's just freewin for TvZ.
"Vultures are too powerful"
These things only cost 75 minerals and you get three free explosive devices that can take up to like 3-4x their cost in units and you can't even see them. How is this fair?
Arbiters need a nerf.
This is just pretty crazy. You can instantly have your army almost anywhere on the map from having 4+ arbiters. Do you realize how imbalanced that is? No other race can do this, and it's cheap to do too, and all your units get cloaked! Imagine SC2 with the ability to build more than 1 mother ship. Shivers....
Blizzard really needs to look at this and patch it, but on the other hand, Terran is imba because Flash plays it perfect so it's ok.
I don't know how this game ever got to be so good...Blizzard missed all these nerfs that were obvious. Bio STILL is not viable as standard in tvp, did blizzard miss this? The game must be broken, and tanks should be nerfed some so bio is more viable. It's just tank tank tank.
Maybe if we whine enough, blizzard will nerf siege tanks in 1.17? We can even post a few select replays as evidence and make a 30 page whine thread about it rather than exhaust all other possible solutions...it's just impossible for Zerg/Protoss to beat that tank ball.
All top players know this, especially all of rootz x17 clan that have extensively tested it by themselves in their own practice games.
I dunno man, I'm trying to get back into brood war, but it seems blizzard needs to balance all this stuff that is too powerful pretty soon or the game is gonna end up trash.
Maybe your just horrible at the game or you just can't handle the pressure your opponent throws at you. + Show Spoiler +Need some whine with that cheese?
Wait what.......
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On June 10 2010 08:58 FraCuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 09:10 De4ngus wrote:Maybe your just horrible at the game or you just can't handle the pressure your opponent throws at you. + Show Spoiler +Need some whine with that cheese? Wait what...
He didn't realize that this is a troll post from a troll.
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EPT
