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Hey everyone,
I thought I would take some time to showcase a new build I've been using in TvP for about 2 weeks now. Its a close copy to a TvZ build in SC1. I've read a lot on the strategy forum that people think TvP is imbalanced, on both sides. Hopefully this guide will allow for some more macro based play, and less 1base facesmashing. I'll outline the build, its strengths and weaknesses, and then provide some replays against quality opponents.
Standard Opener
The general build order is as follows:
10 Depot
12 Rax
15 Orbital
15-16 Command Center (Skip marine if possible)
*various transitions, which I'll outline later in the blog
First off I'll go over its strengths. Obviously, due to the fast expand nature of the build its nearly certain to give you an early economic advantage which should allow you to continue outexpanding your opponent. It's also very strong at holding off early aggression and allows you to upgrade and tech up OR be aggressive after your SCV production kicks in. Another big advantage this build gives you, is a sense of urgency for your opponent. Will he expand himself? will he attempt to 1base bust you? With minimal scouting, you can prepare accordingly.
It's weakness is simple. You have to be overly defensive in the early game, and due to the placement of expansions on many of the maps, this build is not viable on nearly half of the current Blizzard maps. More or less, any map with a backdoor or wide natural expansions(think Blistering Sands, Desert Oasis, etc). You also need to prepare for a wide variety of Protoss openings. Stalker Blink busts, fast void ray, dark templar, etc.
Replays
The matches listed in the .rar are as follows:
1. Masq(T) v. Bee(P) Lost Temple - 1Base Bust v Double CC
2. Masq(T) v. Fallen(P) Lost Temple - Fast VoidRay v Double CC
3. Masq(T) v. HuK(P) Scrap Station - 1rax FE v Stalker Blink
4. Masq(T) v. rBoOCrAfT(P) Kulas Ravine - 1rax FE v fast highyield
5. Masq(T) v. LzGaMeR(P) Kulas Ravine - 1rax FE v Immortal/HT
6. Masq(T) v. TTOne(P) Lost Temple - Double CC v Collossus
7. Masq(T) v. TTOne(P) Metalopolis - 1rax FE vs Mass Stalker
Download Link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4415663/Masq TvP FE Replay Pack.rar
Transitions
After your first command center, you can transition in the following ways: second command center, mass rax into MM, fast 4th with double ebay upgrades and turtling.
Within the replays, you can see the variations I use depending on what the opponent is doing. Typically if you scout a low early game army count, you can expect void rays. If you scout a robo, or a large army, you should prepare for a expansion bust.
Anyway, thats all for now from me. I'll have another blog coming showcasing another build I've been using once I gather enough quality replays.
Feel free to message me with any questions you have, and as before I'm still looking for some practice partners to test these sort of builds out with.
Cheers
 
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Wont standard warpgate pressure builds crush this on every map except maybe LT? (not to sound pesimistic ;o)
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On May 11 2010 18:56 Ftrunkz wrote:
Wont standard warpgate pressure builds crush this on every map except maybe LT? (not to sound pesimistic ;o)
No, it works quite well on Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Kulas, and Scrap Station. I've been working on a variation for Steppes of War, but its not ideal. It definitely does not work on Blistering Sands or Desert Oasis, though.
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What do you mean with prepare for 1 base push?
How do you manage the intial push? (ling/zea/roach etc etc)?
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On May 11 2010 19:13 LuDwig- wrote:
What do you mean with prepare for 1 base push?
How do you manage the intial push? (ling/zea/roach etc etc)?
Well, its specific for the TvP matchup, so ling/roach aren't considered. It easily holds off any zealot rush due to the wall-in placement of the initial rax and depot.
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ok how do you place them?
I know you have uploaded your replay but i suppose that woul be great to know with your words why you think that this build can holds any rush  Do you use buker?
(however i am at work now so i can't give a look to the replay so i am really curious to figure out your build in some way XD)
EDIT: How can you "skip" marine?
The usual PVT opener is zealot sentry for prevent both marauder and reaper turbo rush. So if you exp without marines you will have an entire base without protection? I assume you get a real fast bunker immediatly after the cc?
I assume also that you put your first depot near your choke to start building your wall?
EDIT#2: I hate you! i have a tourney this evening and now i want to try this strategy! I know i will lose because i have never practiced it! But this seem so cute!
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On May 11 2010 19:19 LuDwig- wrote:ok how do you place them? I know you have uploaded your replay but i suppose that woul be great to know with your words why you think that this build can holds any rush Do you use buker? (however i am at work now so i can't give a look to the replay so i am really curious to figure out your build in some way XD)
The initial wall-off looks something like this
xCx
with the X being a depot, and the C being the Rax.
Bunkers are great tools to hold off any initial rush. If you EVER feel in danger of a bust (due to scouting, or lack of) its always best to throw down 2-3 bunkers. Keep in mind you can salvage these bunkers for their full value.
However, I'm a fairly greedy player (who else does 1rax double CC?) so I try my best to get away without using any bunkers. After you add the initial command center, you can throw down 2-4 more rax and continuously pump marines without add-ons. This marine mass will allow you to combat any stalker opening with minimal micro until you get your planetary fortress up.
Additionally, this mass marine opening will allow you to fend off a voidray opening as well.
You can transition however you like (I would not suggest tech/starport switches). Marauder/Marine/Dropship are fine choices as well. Or you can turtle and just mass upgrade (Stim/Health/Conc, Double Engineering).
edit: sorry I wasn't more specific, you don't ENTIRELY skip marine production. You only skip your first marine to get the first command center up that much faster.
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On May 11 2010 19:19 LuDwig- wrote:
EDIT#2: I hate you! i have a tourney this evening and now i want to try this strategy! I know i will lose because i have never practiced it! But this seem so cute!
If you like, I have another 10-20 replays of this build against various players I could send you.
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Ok! that would be real great ! I have to learn this build in 2-3 hours maximum XD
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Eh this isn't new, and its less powerful than avilo's opening into ghost mech. Doubt it will work vs high level players.
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On May 11 2010 19:40 dethrawr wrote:
Eh this isn't new, and its less powerful than avilo's opening into ghost mech. Doubt it will work vs high level players.
As you'll see in one of my replays, I mention I'm not a fan of ghost openers. Anyway, I'd consider those replays I uploaded to be against quality players. I also have replays against the opponents that avilo showed in his ghostmech builds, but the games weren't as good.
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I like greedy builds myself but this looks quite susceptible to cheese like 4 gate, voidrays, dts or any type of build designed to exploit terran's lack of mobility.
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I'hve been doing a similar one but with a 19CC instead, what do you reckon ar the pros and cons of each of them, and how do you respond to void rays?
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On May 11 2010 20:38 Catch]22 wrote:
I'hve been doing a similar one but with a 19CC instead, what do you reckon ar the pros and cons of each of them, and how do you respond to void rays?
15CC lets you get up the command much earlier, and on maps like scrap station or lost temple it will pay off in the long run.
In the replay pack, you can view this game:
2. Masq(T) v. Fallen(P) Lost Temple - Fast VoidRay v Double CC
where it shows my reaction vs fast void ray.
I typically do my standard fast +1attack upgrade, and if void rays come, throw down some turrets and get +1 missle range. If you hold it off without taking too much damage, you'll be so far ahead.
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so, basically this build is autoloss to any proxy. @_@
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On May 11 2010 21:51 avilo wrote:
so, basically this build is autoloss to any proxy. @_@
Are you saying that that discourages you from doing it?
A proxy is an auto loss vs any regular 1base tech or timing build, so with that logic noone would proxy anyway.
Fighting Voidrays are probably the hardest part of this.
Also, yes, I realize that it gets you a faster Commandcenter, but there is also a downside to doing it, which is...?
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On May 11 2010 21:51 avilo wrote:
so, basically this build is autoloss to any proxy. @_@
but it isn't.
Assuming you scout relatively early, unless they proxy in your main you should be able to wall off in time and repair until your marine is out. If you suspect a proxy, just get a marine before your CC.
I think your biggest problem would be a fast stargate build (or 5 warpgate all in)
3 stalkers and 1 void ray are gonna give this build a pretty tough time imo.
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On May 11 2010 19:59 GG.Win wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 19:40 dethrawr wrote:
Eh this isn't new, and its less powerful than avilo's opening into ghost mech. Doubt it will work vs high level players. As you'll see in one of my replays, I mention I'm not a fan of ghost openers. Anyway, I'd consider those replays I uploaded to be against quality players. I also have replays against the opponents that avilo showed in his ghostmech builds, but the games weren't as good.
avilos opening is not a ghost opening.
im talking about http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123717 , and the opening is currently standard TvP on korea (although his ghost mech transition is not the norm)
as has already been said, this opening is completely vulnerable to all-in's, or semi-allinishness. It works great if they play standard, sure, but definately not when they know they can crush you easy.
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On May 12 2010 16:45 dethrawr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 19:59 GG.Win wrote:On May 11 2010 19:40 dethrawr wrote:
Eh this isn't new, and its less powerful than avilo's opening into ghost mech. Doubt it will work vs high level players. As you'll see in one of my replays, I mention I'm not a fan of ghost openers. Anyway, I'd consider those replays I uploaded to be against quality players. I also have replays against the opponents that avilo showed in his ghostmech builds, but the games weren't as good. avilos opening is not a ghost opening. im talking about http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123717 , and the opening is currently standard TvP on korea (although his ghost mech transition is not the norm) as has already been said, this opening is completely vulnerable to all-in's, or semi-allinishness. It works great if they play standard, sure, but definately not when they know they can crush you easy.
if you tried the build, you would know it can hold off all-ins without much trouble once your planetary is up. Your marine count will be fairly high by the time your command center is finished (if you do a single CC expand). You can simply pull SCVs and move out to secure your planetary.
In the ghost mech build, he sits on 5 marines until 8:18 when the first tank/raven pop out. How does this hold off an all-in? This FE build has superior marine numbers in the early game (roughly 3-4x) and has the planetary fortress natural complete at 7:04.
I'm not downplaying his build, im just saying I personally like the fast expansion better.
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EPT
