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5003 Posts
Soviet Russia and the Economic Calculation Problem
There once was a time people believed that a centralized command economy was a viable alternative over the free market. In theory, it was utopia, where all the profits made by the big companies would be shared amongst the people, while the government exercised control over every company and had it worked out just right. The entire economy would be working towards a common goal -- the happiness of everyone.
Yet, things didn't quite work out. Economists have often pointed to the Soviet Union's economy, where there would be piles and piles of merchandise no one wanted to buy, while there would be miles and miles of people just waiting in line to buy undershirts. While in theory, the government would be able to avoid the wastefulness that came with capitalism, in practice what happened was the exact opposite -- resources were wasted, and the unsustainable economic conditions slowly worked towards the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The core of the problem that was suffered by the Soviert Union has been called the "Economic Caclulation Problem". In a gist, it states that without a properly operating price mechanism, it is difficult to rationally distribute resources. This is because price matches incentives -- if there is a shortage, then prices go up, lowering incentives to buy, but increasing incentives to sell, and vice versa in the case of a surplus. When there is one organization in control over the distribution of the resources, then without perfect knowledge of incentives, it is difficult to hope for an efficient outcome.
Blizzard, through their new Battle.net policy, is attempting to grab total control over eSports. That is, Blizzard is attempting to create a centralized command economy through Battle.net.
Step One: Limit Freedom
When one entity exercises total control over the economy, the first thing that happens is the the limitation of freedom. After all, the entity needs to establish that it is the organization that holds control over how the resources should be distributed -- you follow it's will, and your will does not exist.
It is no surprise that KeSPA has resisted this move the entire way through. It isn't just Blizzard storming in and asking for royalties, but Blizzard storming in, demanding that the entire industry must be under total control over Blizzard, and asking for royalties. Perhaps this restriction of freedom was not a part of Blizzard's initial intentions -- perhaps, Blizzard simply wanted to cash in on what they believed was rightfully theirs. Yet, in order to tame the billion dollar industry Blizzard has successfully restricted the freedom of the entire competitive gaming community. There would be no LAN play, there would be no alternative gateways of multiplayer, but everything must be played through Battle.net, where players won't even be able to switch regions to compete against other countries.
Of course, this would only be a minor problem, if Blizzard has proven itself in the past to develop the competitive scene.
Step Two: Step Over Boundaries and Take It Over
In order to exercise total control, there must be nothing that stands in Blizzard's way. One entity that has fought against Blizzard is KeSPA -- an interest group representing the many sponsors that have made Starcraft the game we know and love today.
There is no doubt that Blizzard wants access to KeSPA's resources. However, Blizzard, by using and extending it's rights over "Intellectual Property", simply attempted to absorb KeSPA -- That KeSPA will be using Battle.net, and that, any competitions or broadcasting that comes out as a result is the property of Blizzard. Rather than helping KeSPA take Starcraft 2 off of the runway and into the air, Blizzard has chosen the route of simply taking control of everything KeSPA could do, and demand that they pay royalties.
But, before we can argue about justification on whether or not Blizzard deserves the royalties, we need to talk about the Economics behind Intellectual Property.
+ Show Spoiler +
The main economical justification behind Intellectual Property has been to protect the artists from pirates. The argument goes as follows.
Suppose that a firm decides to spend some amount, let's say, 5 million dollars, to create a new product. This 5 million dollar becomes a fixed cost that the firm pays in advance. Let's suppose that it takes the firm 20 dollars each to make copies of the product. They decide to sell the product for 50 dollars each, using the 30 dollars from each product to first pay off the fixed cost, and then to make a profit.
However, suppose that there is no concept of Intellectual Property and patent. Upon the creation of the product, there are other firms who take a hold of the product, and reverse engineer the product for 10,000 dollars. They then sell the product for 25 dollars each, since they need to make so much less in order to for them to pay off the fixed cost and make the profit.
It does not matter if the copycat firms' product is slightly inferior -- because this directly costs the original firm sales. As competition increases, price approaches marginal cost -- eventually, firms will make very little money by selling the product. This is fine for the copycat firms -- who probably already paid off the fixed cost. But the original firm takes a huge loss for developing the product.
Hence, we have Intellectual Property -- to protect firms who create products, and to prevent firms from copying them.
The purpose of Intellectual Property is to promote creativity, research and developement for firms. Without Intellectual Property -- the original firm will not be able to make a profit by developing new products.
Under this argument, Blizzard should not need to charge KeSPA royalty -- rather, it should be paying KeSPA to pick up the game, supporting the game, as it would take an extremely myopic view to argue that a professional SC2 scene would not boost sales phenomenally. These boosted sales are enough to justify the eSports scene.
Blizzard knows that charging royalty would make KeSPA step out of the market. One reasoning behind this is that KeSPA is clearly not a profit maximizing firm. While many people may argue that they wouldn't be in it if it weren't making them money, but Starcraft eSports has definitely been something that has not been maximizing -- one evidence for this is that they have not charged for tickets for many of the major events. Secondly, the argument would only apply if there was competition involved in eSports -- if there was competition, surely, we can assume that it would be profit maximizing. Yet the transient existance of Gom leagues has not affected the behavior of eSports -- if a major competitor left the market, then why hasn't the eSports changed in response -- that is, why aren't there signs that KeSPA is using their monopoly powers?
The Fate of eSports
Given this, Blizzard and KeSPA's actions can be modelled simply by game theory.
Blizzard can either choose to "Enforce IP" or "Not Enforce IP". KeSPA can choose to "Adopt SC2" or "Not Adopt SC2".
If Blizzard enforces IP, and KeSPA adopts SC2 -- then the best model I can think of regarding this is taxation -- royalties are equivalent to a proportional tax. In case of a proportional tax -- the firm simply brings the tax over the consumers. Rather than a free event, Starcraft 2 will likely have tickets you need to purchase, and perhaps, more commercialized things to maximize profits (although, it won't take long for Blizzard to demand rights over these too). While this may be a benefit to many people, in the end, it is a cost to consumers.
But don't assume that KeSPA will not be hurt -- KeSPA will now be under 100% control of Blizzard. This loss of freedom will make it a loss to KeSPA. In the meanwhile, Blizzard makes it big -- the competitive eSports boosts SC2 sales, and the royalties it collects, this is the best result for Blizzard.
If Blizzard enforces IP, and KeSPA does not adopt SC2 -- then first, Blizzard loses royalties and the boost in sales. There is little chance that without the support of KeSPA, Blizzard will be able to suceed in Korea. There are simply too many things working against Blizzard -- the connections KeSPA has with the broadcasting firms, the government, the progamers themselves.
The end result is that Kespa doesnt pick up SC2, and will continue simply with SC1. This means simply just means that SC2 wont get as big as SC1, which is no big deal, in the long run. But remember what Blizzard is trying to do -- they want SC2 to replace SC1.
This pretty much means Blizzard has failed to accomplish what they wanted to do. No matter how good SC2 is, this is a negative signal on the company, and simply states that SC1's success wasn't replicated. To us who keep up with this stuff, we know better, but to the masses, this means a lot. "Why is there a SC1 proscene but not a SC2 proscene?" That question will speak for itself.
While many argue that there will be a proscene outside of a Korea -- this is very unlikely to happen, for many reasons that other people have covered better. Here is a few sampling of their posts.
On April 25 2010 15:23 p4NDemik wrote:Most here foster hope that a competitive SC2 scene will equal if not surpass BW's success in Korea and I'm saying the most likely avenue to get to that point is through KeSPA. Could a non-KeSPA backed SC2 scene reach that point? I'm not going to absolutely 100% rule it out, but I don't believe it's what we as fans should be crossing our fingers for.
On April 25 2010 16:48 StarcraftMan wrote:For those who believe Blizzard and us ESports fan have nothing to lose, again you are wrong. You cannot duplicate Kespa's infrastructure setup, Kespa's relations with MBC and OGN, and Kespa's relations with the media in one easy step. Don't forget that Kespa has influence over the government, the media, and Korean e-sports scene. If Blizzard tries to push SC2 as an Esport on GOMTV, it could very well fail if Kespa is fighting Blizzard every step of the way. At the end of the day, not only can the SC1 E-Sports scene implode, but SC2 as an E-Sport may never take off for the same reasons.
In the end, SC1 will eventually die (or perhaps, Blizzard blocks KeSPA off), and SC2 has a high probability of failing to become a professional, competitive eSport.
If Blizzard does not enforce IP, and KeSPA adopts SC2 -- Then while KeSPA is able to run the formats identical to what we have with Starcraft: Broodwar, there is still a significant risk involved: Is Starcraft 2 actually good enough for a pro scene?
There is no way I can answer this question -- I know little to nothing about Starcraft 2. However, there is still a risk involved. A win-win contract would be Blizzard helping out SC2 on the runway (ie, sponsor many tournaments, etc etc) and then Blizzard getting a share once the SC2 scene pays off. There is nothing wrong with Blizzard getting a nice slice of pie, in fact, it is their right as investors. Blizzard can help the SC2 scene materialize, and guarantee to make the SC2 scene a success.
If Blizzard does not enforce IP, and KeSPA does not adopt SC2 -- Won't happen.
Step 3: Enforcing of Standards and the Competitive Decline
Blizzard, in the end, has chosen to enforce IP, through Battle.net centralization. Yet, this has far more repercussions than just on the fate of professional eSports.
With centralization comes a set of standards that everyone is forced to agree to -- a set of ideals, regarding what multiplayer Starcraft 2 is supposed to look like. This is because even if fans disagree, they are not able to create an alternative gateway to support their cause -- they are stuck with what Blizzard can offer through Battle.net. We will not be able to play with friends over LAN, nor will we be able to choose alternative services that picked up the ball on where Blizzard has left off (see: iCCup and the anti-hack launcher).
It is true that Blizzard has learned from the community through Brood War, but it is far-fetched to assume that Blizzard has learned everything they needed to do. Whether it be the AntiHack Launcher or replay analyzers, there are many things that Blizzard has only learned through fans demonstrating the feasibility. With centralization, this is no longer an option -- less you break Blizzard's terms of service. In best case scenario, Blizzard is on the ball on every issue -- deals with maphackers and laghackers while continually updating the best maps to play competitively. Worst case scenario, we're stuck with Battle.net, and it'd be akin to being forced to play on Battle.net over iCCup on Starcraft today.
Now, there is no doubt that I am painting these words to make my case extreme. In reality, perhaps Blizzard will be a bit more fair to the competitive community. Yet, there are many mixed signals Blizzard has sent over the past about eSports, professional gaming, and competitive play, and it'd be nothing but a disappointment if they were to err, and we are left in Starcraft 2 simply something that is called eSports only by name, the lack of professional gaming, and a laggy game that slowly walks the road traveled by many other RTSes -- the road to obscurity. It is this fear that compelled me to write this post.
 
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Very sad story, indeed.
game theory is sweet btw.
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I agree with a lot of what you say, especially with regards to the lack of complete control allowing other parties to build their own useful tools to supplement what Blizzard had originally provided.
There's no way Blizzard can internally replicate the pool of ideas from other players and the ability of everyone else to realize these ideas. All the tools we have today are because Blizzard does not have control completely over Brood War, which is what they seem to be trying to do with SC2.
And despite Activision-Blizzard's prowess, they don't have the expertise, experience, or resources to assemble the organization, broadcast, and execution of a professional game scene.
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Are you high on something? KeSPA is the one controlling and strangling the free market. Have you taken a look at their ridiculous player contracts? They literally caused the scandal to happen by severely underpaying players.
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Sadly i don't think there are a good guy and a bad guy in this story. Two entities are just struggling for money and power.
And when two elephants fight, the grass suffers...
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i really really REALLY hopes that sc2 WILL be the new sc:bw
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United States22883 Posts
Your thread reads like pure propaganda.
Blizzard, through their new Battle.net policy, is attempting to grab total control over eSports. Patently untrue.
That is, Blizzard is attempting to create a centralized command economy through Battle.net. What? Blizzard's actions are extremely capitalistic. They're not taking control of distribution, they're trying to license it out. They are a private company and they've identified what they believe to be in their best interests. If they take control and their ESPORTS model doesn't work, they'll adjust. We're not talking about basic human rights; THEY ARE NOT A GOVERNMENT.
Portraying KeSPA as some type of freedom fighter is pushing the boundaries of absurdity. I have a feeling that you're either an excellent troll trying to rile people up or see what you can make idiots agree to, or simply that you work for KeSPA.
KeSPA -- an interest group representing the many sponsors that have made Starcraft the game we know and love today. How have the chaebols changed the game of Starcraft? Not a single way. None at all. The game is unchanged, because of them. They're responsible for viewer acceptance, enthusiasm, etc. but they have not touched the game. While the effectiveness of their past promotions are unquestionable, this is a totally different era of gaming. KeSPA and the Korean companies helped create viewership (and in this case, your market) but that does not entitle them to control over it. Blizzard's stipulations are fairly standard and will actually serve to open up your pseudo-market even further by introducing competition TO KeSPA. The same cry was heard when Valve introduced LAN royalty fees on CS 1.6 and Steam, and following that, 1.6's competitive scene actually boomed. I doubt there's causation there, but the point is that it didn't hinder development.
I'm not sure this is any different than a company choosing not to sell their products in a specific store. Not everyone wants to sell their shit in Walmart, even if they could potentially sell more. KeSPA is a shady business partner, and any short term gain Blizzard would get by immediate acceptance of SC2 could be completely offset in the future by the organization's lack of oversight, planning, etc.
Under this argument, Blizzard should not need to charge KeSPA royalty -- rather, it should be paying KeSPA to pick up the game, supporting the game, as it would take an extremely myopic view to argue that a professional SC2 scene would not boost sales phenomenally. Completely incorrect understanding of IP. Did Blizzard make money in Korea? Yes. But they should have made a lot more, not simply through broadcasting but the PC Bangs as well. Your argument is akin to saying that pirating Photoshop should be allowed, because it brought Adobe more Photoshop users. Is that true? Yes. Does that justify it? Absolutely not. Adobe and Blizzard have their own products and their own business strategies. I would venture to say that MOST IMMEDIATE $$$ is not their primary goal.
Blizzard knows that charging royalty would make KeSPA step out of the market. One reasoning behind this is that KeSPA is clearly not a profit maximizing firm. We know KeSPA is inefficient, but that doesn't mean they're not trying to be.
one evidence for this is that they have not charged for tickets for many of the major events. Hardly evidence at all. They get people to go to malls owned by the companies that fuel the organization. Just because there's no direct transaction taking place between viewers and the organization doesn't mean they're not behaving rationally.
why aren't there signs that KeSPA is using their monopoly powers? Hi, you must be new to Starcraft.
Everything else in your post is complete speculation. If Blizzard cuts off SC1 and denies KeSPA access to SC2, then the industry just evaporates? What happened to your grand analogy to a market? The 3 million Korean viewers of OGN/MBC going to turn to CnC 18 instead? Or I guess KeSPA will just pick a new game, because the viewers (read: customers) will buy what's presented to them? Oh, how capitalistic you've become!
It is this fear that compelled me to write this post. Yeah, we'll see...
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5003 Posts
I have a feeling you only read select portions of my post considering you have missed my point completely.
What? Blizzard's actions are extremely capitalistic. They're not taking control of distribution, they're trying to license it out. They are a private company and they've identified what they believe to be in their best interests. If they take control and their ESPORTS model doesn't work, they'll adjust.
A lot of companies are criticized all the time for limiting freedom of their customers. While they're simply trying to license out the distribution, the sideeffects (where's my LAN? Why should I have to play with lag?) are clear. What companies decide in their best interests doesn't lead to the most efficient outcome?
Portraying KeSPA as some type of freedom fighter is pushing the boundaries of absurdity. I have a feeling that you're either an excellent troll trying to rile people up or see what you can make idiots agree to, or simply that you work for KeSPA.
In no way I portrayed KeSPA as a freedom fighter -- I simply portrayed them as an organization getting damaged by this.
How have the chaebols changed the game of Starcraft? Not a single way. None at all. The game is unchanged, because of them. They're responsible for viewer acceptance, enthusiasm, etc. but they have not touched the game. While the effectiveness of their past promotions are unquestionable, this is a totally different era of gaming. KeSPA and the Korean companies helped create viewership (and in this case, your market) but that does not entitle them to control over it. Blizzard's stipulations are fairly standard and will actually serve to open up your pseudo-market even further by introducing competition TO KeSPA. The same cry was heard when Valve introduced LAN royalty fees on CS 1.6 and Steam, and following that, 1.6's competitive scene actually boomed. I doubt there's causation there, but the point is that it didn't hinder development.
Depends on how you define "the game". The Viewer Acceptance, the enthusiasm, and the level of competition, etc, are all products created by KeSPA.
Does CS 1.6 have a professional scene? That is, is there a large number of people who play the game for a living?
I'm not sure this is any different than a company choosing not to sell their products in a specific store. Not everyone wants to sell their shit in Walmart, even if they could potentially sell more. KeSPA is a shady business partner, and any short term gain Blizzard would get by immediate acceptance of SC2 could be completely offset in the future by the organization's lack of oversight, planning, etc.
The difference is that eSports is not a product of the game, but an externality produced by the game. eSports is not a Blizzard product, it's something that uses Blizzard products.
Completely incorrect understanding of IP. Did Blizzard make money in Korea? Yes. But they should have made a lot more, not simply through broadcasting but the PC Bangs as well.
Read the spoiler tag. My justification for what IP should be is pretty damn sound. Anything past that is greed. "Completely incorrect understanding?" Pray tell, give me a better one and justify it economically.
We know KeSPA is inefficient, but that doesn't mean they're not trying to be.
Evidence.
Hardly evidence at all. They get people to go to malls owned by the companies that fuel the organization. Just because there's no direct transaction taking place between viewers and the organization doesn't mean they're not behaving rationally.
Yeah, okay. I'm going to buy this.
Ok, so apparently you're new to Starcraft.
Okay, evidence.
Everything else in your post is complete speculation. If Blizzard cuts off SC1 and denies KeSPA access to SC2, then the industry just evaporates? What happened to your grand analogy to a market? The 3 million Korean viewers of OGN/MBC going to turn to CnC 18 instead? Or I guess KeSPA will just pick a new game, because the viewers (read: customers) will buy what's presented to them? Oh, how capitalistic you've become!
The industry is fragile, and can evaporate for many reasons. I don't think I ever said "these viewers will turn to another game", anywhere. It seems as if your entire argument is simply missing the point and stuffing random words into my mouth.
If you're going to try and pick off points, please actually read what I wrote because apparently, you have completely missed my point.
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United States22883 Posts
I read it thoroughly. Blizzard is trying to take complete control of ESPORTS (note: the only ESPORT they're going after is the one produced by the game they made) and you think KeSPA should have the rights to use their product because you think Blizzard profited by their work. That's simply not how IP works, and it is about greed. You can make a fairly strong case that Blizzard deserved to make more money in Korea, and its simply not KeSPA's property, whether it benefited from them or not. They're both looking for profits, except Blizzard is making a product while KeSPA is making a service predicated upon that product being available. KeSPA needs to buy that product in order to offer the service.
What companies decide in their best interests doesn't lead to the most efficient outcome? Yay for undefined efficiency. Blizzard is trying to fulfill a balance between value for their customers and their own profit. You disagree with the balance they've chosen, but that doesn't mean you break the entire barrier.
Evidence of KeSPA throwing around their weight? '08 television negotiations with MBC/OGN? GOM Invitational's destruction? The Jaedong free agency saga? The teams throw their weight around all the time in ways that negatively impact the viewers and the players.
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5003 Posts
I read it thoroughly. Blizzard is trying to take complete control of ESPORTS (note: the only ESPORT they're going after is the one produced by the game they made) and you think KeSPA should have the rights to use their product because you think Blizzard profited by their work. That's simply not how IP works, and it is about greed. They're both looking for profits, except Blizzard is making a product while KeSPA is making a service predicated upon that product being available. KeSPA needs to buy that product in order to offer the service.
I believe KeSPA should have the rights based on the model that they have created for themselves. KeSPA and Blizzard has the potentially to be mutually benefiting companies, and it'll lead to the more efficient outcome.
I don't believe Blizzard created the end-product. If Blizzard spent many hours creating Starcraft, then KeSPA and the proplayers have spent many more hours creating eSports based on Starcraft. Blizzard made no investment into the sports of eSports, and what they did not invest in, they should not get.
Yay for undefined efficiency. Blizzard is trying to fulfill a balance between value for their customers and their own profit. You disagree with the balance they've chosen, but that doesn't mean you break the entire barrier.
Yes, and my argument is that, we're undoubtedly stuck by it. As consumers, we should be happy that there are more firms in the markets competing, not less.
My definition of efficiency is simple: The livelihood of eSports. This is clearly a lose-lose scenario.
Evidence of KeSPA throwing around their weight? '08 television negotiations with MBC/OGN? GOM Invitational's destruction? The Jaedong free agency saga? The teams throw their weight around all the time in ways that negatively impact the viewers and the players.
I'm not too sure with the television negotiations with MBC/OGN, so I won't comment.
GOM Invitational's destruction? See Plexa's post in this thread
Jaedong free agency saga? That was Jaedong's parents. Jaedong wanted to play for Oz, it was his parents that stopped him. While KeSPA could have had a better system in place, putting the blame on KeSPA is just silly -- in fact, Oz offered him the same contract.
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United States22883 Posts
What about his post? KeSPA is those companies. The fact that they have a hand in regulating the tournaments that they compete in and that they broadcast should raise alarms to anyone about the foundations of Korean Pro SC atm. KeSPA is just a body for official, unified decisions, it's the chaebols that Blizzard's really dealing with. If they can split them up, I think it'll be better for fans. The NFL has already crossed iffy territory with the NFL Network, and if CBS/Fox/ABC/ESPN contracts didn't exist, of course they'd be hauled to court. Now what if Roger Goodell was also a team owner?
Oz was able to offer Jd the same contract because no other teams would offer him one. Free agency simply does not exist in professional Starcraft. Again, we're talking about collusion among the chaebols to limit a player's freedom. Just because KeSPA didn't make an official decree of it, doesn't mean that the bodies who essentially run it don't work together to make that happen.
Blizzard made no investment into the sports of eSports, and what they did not invest in, they should not get. Unfortunately, we're not having a moral argument. This is a legal one. We see it in technology cases all the time. Someone creates code designed to do X, and another person finds a better use for it. They implement it for that second use, and the original creator is still entitled to royalties, even if it had gone basically unused before then.
I think you're misreading Blizzard's intentions if you think they want to be the sole firm in charge of eSports. I think it's too much of a burden, and likely not profitable in the long run (and inevitably bad for their image, since fans always turn on the league.) They're looking for contractors to do it. If you really want to use the monopoly analogy. then it's a monopoly screwing another monopoly, and in most fans' eyes, Blizzard's past is far less unscrupulous than KeSPA's.
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5003 Posts
What about his post? KeSPA is those companies. The fact that they have a hand in regulating the tournaments that they compete in and that they broadcast should raise alarms to anyone about the foundations of Korean Pro SC atm. KeSPA is just a body for official, unified decisions, it's the chaebols that Blizzard's really dealing with. If they can split them up, I think it'll be better for fans. The NFL has already crossed iffy territory with the NFL Network, and if CBS/Fox/ABC/ESPN contracts didn't exist, of course they'd be hauled to court. Now what if Roger Goodell was also a team owner?
Then say that it's the chaebols. It has nothing to do with KeSPA as a whole, but a subset of KeSPA, and it should be specifically labeled as that. As far as I am concerned, all KeSPA did was not recognize it.
Oz was able to offer Jd the same contract because no other teams would offer him one. Free agency simply does not exist in professional Starcraft. Again, we're talking about collusion among the chaebols to limit a player's freedom. Just because KeSPA didn't make an official decree of it, doesn't mean that the bodies who essentially run it don't work together to make that happen.
If no other teams would offer him one, then sounds like Oz was being fair with him after all. Sounds like more fault would go to Jaedong's parents for creating that entire ordeal for no reason. If you're arguing this entire situation was done through collusion, then perhaps there is reason to believe that each individual team isn't profit maximizing after all -- there's incentive to pick up a top player like Jaedong.
Limiting freedom of players? More like Work Contracts. We also have them in the United States, and some of them are quite ridiculous, I may add. There's nothing wrong with restricting "freedom" of players.
Have issues? Compete. In the end, however I believe that KeSPA is the best shot we have to continue the eSports scene in SC2.
Unfortunately, we're not having a moral argument. This is a legal one. We see it in technology cases all the time. Someone creates code designed to do X, and another person finds a better use for it. They implement it for that second use, and the original creator is still entitled to royalties, even if it had gone basically unused before then.
Unfortunately, we are having an economic argument. I never cared for a legal argument -- anyone could tell you that Blizzard has the "right" legally. Should they have the right? Perhaps. Should they enforce it? No.
I think you're misreading Blizzard's intentions if you think they want to be the sole firm in charge of eSports. I think it's too much of a burden, and likely not profitable in the long run (and inevitably bad for their image, since fans always turn on the league.) They're looking for contractors to do it.
I think they want to be in full control of eSports (of Starcraft 2), and I'm simply against any company having full control of of the scene without sending the necessary signals to do so. Signals like, Blizzard being involved in eSports and trying to make it big, rather than big empty words they're throwing around that just sounds like they want to cash in. They talk big, but they don't have the logistics -- without a solid plan other than "Hire contractors", why should we trust them? What makes you think having contracts in other countries will necessarily mean SC2 will have a solid professional scene? If Blizzard had a much clearer plan and vision, perhaps I would be supporting them. However, their signals are mixed -- their words say "we want eSports to happen", but everything they have done so far will hinder the development (Battle.net? Seriously?).
There's no reason to believe Blizzard will be successful in doing so. My argument is that Blizzard and KeSPA should be working together simply for the good of eSports, since in my opinion, it's the most efficient outcome with the least risk involved.
They're looking for contractors to do it. If you really want to use the monopoly analogy. then it's a monopoly screwing another monopoly, and in most fans' eyes, Blizzard's past is far less unscrupulous than KeSPA's.
While it is a monopoly screwing another monopoly, it's a monopoly with no proven track record screwing another monopoly who have proven themselves thousands of times over over a technicality.
Now, it's not even fair to say "Blizzard's past is far less unscrupulous than KeSPA's". Blizzard never had to work with such a large professional scene that has hundreds, if not thousands of people employed. All they had to do is make the games and do generic customer support -- on the other hand, KeSPA has to play politician amongst different interest groups. If we're going to say statements like this, let's put it in proper context -- playing politician by definition has to be less scrupulous than simply creating games and "consumer support".
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lol economics
what we have here is simply a case of the ultimatum game
problem: sc2 in korea
kespa: let's give me 99% of the control and u can have 1% blizzard
blizzard: fuck you nobody gets anything
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On April 26 2010 02:12 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +Oz was able to offer Jd the same contract because no other teams would offer him one. Free agency simply does not exist in professional Starcraft. Again, we're talking about collusion among the chaebols to limit a player's freedom. Just because KeSPA didn't make an official decree of it, doesn't mean that the bodies who essentially run it don't work together to make that happen. If no other teams would offer him one, then sounds like Oz was being fair with him after all. Sounds like more fault would go to Jaedong's parents for creating that entire ordeal for no reason. If you're arguing this entire situation was done through collusion, then perhaps there is reason to believe that each individual team isn't profit maximizing after all -- there's incentive to pick up a top player like Jaedong. Limiting freedom of players? More like Work Contracts. We also have them in the United States, and some of them are quite ridiculous, I may add. There's nothing wrong with restricting "freedom" of players. Have issues? Compete. In the end, however I believe that KeSPA is the best shot we have to continue the eSports scene in SC2.
Do you not understand the point of collusion with labor contracts? The chaebols profit maximized because they are keeping the player salaries at slave wages. Because they don't charge tickets because they can't and keep fans, they simply do things like make sure the players are underpaid and just eat up the television revenue. Giving JD the contract he deserves would drive up player salaries in general and hurt them all.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 26 2010 03:57 Seiuchi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 02:12 Milkis wrote:Oz was able to offer Jd the same contract because no other teams would offer him one. Free agency simply does not exist in professional Starcraft. Again, we're talking about collusion among the chaebols to limit a player's freedom. Just because KeSPA didn't make an official decree of it, doesn't mean that the bodies who essentially run it don't work together to make that happen. If no other teams would offer him one, then sounds like Oz was being fair with him after all. Sounds like more fault would go to Jaedong's parents for creating that entire ordeal for no reason. If you're arguing this entire situation was done through collusion, then perhaps there is reason to believe that each individual team isn't profit maximizing after all -- there's incentive to pick up a top player like Jaedong. Limiting freedom of players? More like Work Contracts. We also have them in the United States, and some of them are quite ridiculous, I may add. There's nothing wrong with restricting "freedom" of players. Have issues? Compete. In the end, however I believe that KeSPA is the best shot we have to continue the eSports scene in SC2. Do you not understand the point of collusion with labor contracts? The chaebols profit maximized because they are keeping the player salaries at slave wages. Because they don't charge tickets because they can't and keep fans, they simply do things like make sure the players are underpaid and just eat up the television revenue. Giving JD the contract he deserves would drive up player salaries in general and hurt them all.
Maybe there isn't that much esports money? The esports stadiums aren't filled even though it's free admission.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 26 2010 02:12 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +What about his post? KeSPA is those companies. The fact that they have a hand in regulating the tournaments that they compete in and that they broadcast should raise alarms to anyone about the foundations of Korean Pro SC atm. KeSPA is just a body for official, unified decisions, it's the chaebols that Blizzard's really dealing with. If they can split them up, I think it'll be better for fans. The NFL has already crossed iffy territory with the NFL Network, and if CBS/Fox/ABC/ESPN contracts didn't exist, of course they'd be hauled to court. Now what if Roger Goodell was also a team owner? Then say that it's the chaebols. It has nothing to do with KeSPA as a whole, but a subset of KeSPA, and it should be specifically labeled as that. As far as I am concerned, all KeSPA did was not recognize it. They ARE KeSPA as a whole. This is akin to MLB before things like collective bargaining or any other players rights existed, except the team owners also happen to be the biggest companies in the country. The fact that it's called a Players' Association is just a mockery to the entire system.
I'm simply against any company having full control of of the scene without sending the necessary signals to do so. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT KESPA HAS DONE.
I honestly believe you work for KeSPA at this point. Maybe an internship, who knows.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 26 2010 04:03 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 03:57 Seiuchi wrote:On April 26 2010 02:12 Milkis wrote:Oz was able to offer Jd the same contract because no other teams would offer him one. Free agency simply does not exist in professional Starcraft. Again, we're talking about collusion among the chaebols to limit a player's freedom. Just because KeSPA didn't make an official decree of it, doesn't mean that the bodies who essentially run it don't work together to make that happen. If no other teams would offer him one, then sounds like Oz was being fair with him after all. Sounds like more fault would go to Jaedong's parents for creating that entire ordeal for no reason. If you're arguing this entire situation was done through collusion, then perhaps there is reason to believe that each individual team isn't profit maximizing after all -- there's incentive to pick up a top player like Jaedong. Limiting freedom of players? More like Work Contracts. We also have them in the United States, and some of them are quite ridiculous, I may add. There's nothing wrong with restricting "freedom" of players. Have issues? Compete. In the end, however I believe that KeSPA is the best shot we have to continue the eSports scene in SC2. Do you not understand the point of collusion with labor contracts? The chaebols profit maximized because they are keeping the player salaries at slave wages. Because they don't charge tickets because they can't and keep fans, they simply do things like make sure the players are underpaid and just eat up the television revenue. Giving JD the contract he deserves would drive up player salaries in general and hurt them all. Maybe there isn't that much esports money? The esports stadiums aren't filled even though it's free admission. It's the full spectrum of advertising revenue.
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5003 Posts
They ARE KeSPA as a whole. This is akin to MLB before things like collective bargaining or any other players rights existed, except the team owners also happen to be the biggest companies in the country. The fact that it's called a Players' Association is just a mockery to the entire system. The number of conflicts of interest involved in Korean SC are numerous.
Wrong. Think of it this way. There's an alternative league to the MLB, and the MLB simply states that it is not recognized by the MLB, and the teams could compete there if they wished. However, some of the teams refuse to compete, and the league fails.
In this case, MLB did nothing wrong. It is the individual teams with vested interests.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT KESPA HAS DONE.
KeSPA has signaled clearly that they care about eSports and wish to develop it. Or do you not understand what "necessary signals" are? They have more than proven themselves. Way to not read the rest of my response.
Do you not understand the point of collusion with labor contracts? The chaebols profit maximized because they are keeping the player salaries at slave wages. Because they don't charge tickets because they can't and keep fans, they simply do things like make sure the players are underpaid and just eat up the television revenue. Giving JD the contract he deserves would drive up player salaries in general and hurt them all.
The Starcraft players don't have to agree to those terms. What stops them from going on strike?
I dont think you understand. 20K a year in Korea? That's what college grads get in Korea. Fuck, I know so many people who work for so much less, something like 800 dollars a month. Proplayers are EXTREMELY well paid, especially for their wage, if you consider what normal people get paid in Korea.
It's the full spectrum of advertising revenue.
Yeah and this isn't Superbowl either. Why do you assume the advertising revenue is enough? There are many people who are organized to make things happen, what makes you think that they're making a solid profit? Do you have KeSPA's earning statements? Why don't you show me the billions they have raked in?
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United States22883 Posts
On April 26 2010 04:21 Milkis wrote: What stops them from going on strike?
Korean
e
Sports
Players
Association
I dont think you understand. 20K a year in Korea? That's what college grads get in Korea. Fuck, I know so many people who work for so much less, something like 800 dollars a month. They are well paid.
Annnnnnd we have a winner, ladies and gentlemen!
Fuck, KeSPA should just declare non-profit status and set themselves up as a humanitarian aid organization. They save hundreds of kids each year!
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5003 Posts
Korean
e
Sports
Players
Association
Oh good. So they speak for the players, don't they? Stop bringing up things that'll contradict yourself. Especially when you're so utterly wrong.
http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/한국e스포츠협회
Korea e-Sports Association is what they stand for. Stop being ignorant.
Annnnnnd we have a winner, ladies and gentlemen!
Fuck, KeSPA should just declare non-profit status and set themselves up as a humanitarian aid organization. They save hundreds of kids each year!
Yup. Trolling, blatant sarcasm, and ridicule is the best way to get your point across.
Maybe you'll have a more coherent and complete argument if you actually responded to my entire argument instead of trying to attack little pieces that are irrelevant to the actual arguments at hand.
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EPT
