• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:36
CEST 04:36
KST 11:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!3Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters1Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)66Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format16[IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend!18
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard" [D] Wireframe Casting Removed
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) WardiTV Summer Cup 2026 GSL CK #5 Race War HomeStory Cup 29
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion HORROR STARCRAFT MOVIE How Famous was FlaSh before his Debut? Recent recommended BW games
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend! Escore Tournament - Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story Tennis[sport]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Role of Gaming on Mental Hea…
TrAiDoS
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4471 users

Perception of Skill and Balance in the Community

Blogs > T33K3SS3LCH3N
Post a Reply
teekesselchen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany886 Posts
April 10 2010 01:01 GMT
#1
Actually, this topic does not really aim for the TeamLiquid forums but more for german forums I read in. Many people complained about balance and that they just can't compete with certain races, such as Zerg who now say that ZvT matchup was broken now.

I think that most players cannot actually rate the balance from their results because they cannot compare their skill to that of their opponents in most cases.

If all players' skill was rated in a rating between 0 to 100, their results should be explainable by comparing their skill and the matchup balance to their opponent's skill. The other way round, this means that players cannot rate the balance of a matchup when they don't know their or their opponents skill levels.

If a Zerg player wins 50% of his games against Skill-80-Terrans, does that mean that he is equally skilled? Not if the balance is unknown. Maybe he is way more or way less skilled but the matchup is not balanced.

Thus, you have to know a player's skill to get information about the balance by looking at his matches. Most players who flame and whine about balance can't know their or their opponents' skill, for example some Zerg might have been massively overrated and now think their race was broken because they loose against players they had a chance against before the patch.

The only players we can rate more or less accurately are top players. The beta might not be old yet but there already are players of each race who have exeptional results such as Lucifron, Dimaga, DeMuslim and several others. Those are the only players who's skill can be quantified as they must be more or less close to 100 (maybe not of what is possible overall but what is reached yet). So if you check their results, you can draw an approximate picture of balance.

Sure, this method can't always work and won't work for balance amongst all skill levels. If there, for example, is something you have to do in order to maintain a chance of winning in a specific matchup that just requires a certain base skill but does not really bother professional players, a matchup can be balanced for top players but not for the majority of the community.
(Let's say players have to stack Mutas to win against Terrans, very good players won't have a problem with that, a little worse players might be struggling with their multitasking and have a disadvantage over Terran, bad players won't be able to do it at all, but on their skill level it possibly won't be so important anyways :D).

All in all, I just think that there is way too much whining going on from players who don't even try to be objective about their games. They don't see "oh wow I got supply blocked right before the push so I lost", they just see "I lost again against this stupid race!" and complain about it in all forums they know.

*
When they were introduced, he made a witticism, hoping to be liked. She laughed extremely hard, hoping to be liked. Then each drove home alone, staring straight ahead, with the very same twist to their faces.
DeathSpank
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1029 Posts
April 10 2010 01:16 GMT
#2
I always check to see what league/division my opponent is in after I play them. People who whine deserve to lose.
yes.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
April 10 2010 02:47 GMT
#3
If the really really bad players feel a matchup is too unbalanced then they will either leave the game or switch to another race.

These guys will never advance in rank... because they don't play enough games to get the points to advance... but since one race may be easier: eg mass marauders as terrans... they will win more than 50% of their games against equally bad 1-5 skill level opponents. If a Terran and Zerg player have just finished the campaign... the terran shouldn't be given an automatic win and the game will be unbalanced at a lower skill level(given skill level is based on how much time one has played the game). It's probably impossible for balance to be achieved across all skill levels and therefore we should hope that it is as good as possible across the 1-89 levels, and damn near perfect at the 90-100 level.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
unit
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2621 Posts
April 10 2010 02:51 GMT
#4
On April 10 2010 10:16 DeathSpank wrote:
People who whine deserve to lose.

This is exactly the case
teekesselchen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany886 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-10 03:26:36
April 10 2010 03:15 GMT
#5
On April 10 2010 11:47 obesechicken13 wrote:
If the really really bad players feel a matchup is too unbalanced then they will either leave the game or switch to another race.

These guys will never advance in rank... because they don't play enough games to get the points to advance... but since one race may be easier: eg mass marauders as terrans... they will win more than 50% of their games against equally bad 1-5 skill level opponents. If a Terran and Zerg player have just finished the campaign... the terran shouldn't be given an automatic win and the game will be unbalanced at a lower skill level(given skill level is based on how much time one has played the game). It's probably impossible for balance to be achieved across all skill levels and therefore we should hope that it is as good as possible across the 1-89 levels, and damn near perfect at the 90-100 level.


Sadly they do advance :D
Maybe it's a thing thats special for germany. The prejudice that germans complain all the time may proof true for multiplayer games.
Just to give you one example (respond to patch 8): "30% of Zerg will switch race now -.-" (posted by a Zerg ofc - Still he won't switch race, maybe deep in his heart he feels the righteosness of Patch 8 :D ). Also just got insulted by a weeping zerg after a match who has 1550 rating (platinum) and said that he can't possibly ever win on terran with hydras only having 80 hp and Terran beeing so lame race because they have "5 harrassing units". Actually all he played was Roaches/Hydras and expanding all over the place without giving any pressure or a real gameplan and allowing me to harass him as I pleased.

Forums are full of people who are not even total noobs but really don't EVER spend a thought on the fact that their previous results could be better than their skill because balance was bad by giving them an advantage.

Also a zerg who almost stepped into austrian national team (quite a good player though he admits to be some levels below players such as german national team Socke, HasuObs, XlorD and so on, think he is around 1650 rating Platinum right now) keeps on complaining, for instance that Thors actually do counter mutas and mutas would be extremely underpowered since thor's air AoE.

Gotta say that TL community is much more constructive about tactics. Lets take this thread title: "[Q] PVZ how to fight mass muta?" - I'm kinda sure that 85% of german posts about the same problem would be titled "macht Mutas endlich schwächer -.-" ("Nerf mutas already -.-")
When they were introduced, he made a witticism, hoping to be liked. She laughed extremely hard, hoping to be liked. Then each drove home alone, staring straight ahead, with the very same twist to their faces.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 21h 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft414
RuFF_SC2 136
FoxeR 72
Ketroc 32
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 3777
Artosis 570
Free 148
Terrorterran 1
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm238
League of Legends
Trikslyr66
Counter-Strike
summit1g11007
taco 391
minikerr33
Other Games
tarik_tv6071
WinterStarcraft659
JimRising 647
Day[9].tv402
Maynarde160
JuggernautJason132
ToD103
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2183
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile112
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo349
Other Games
• Scarra1223
• Day9tv402
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
21h 24m
The PondCast
1d 7h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 8h
OSC
1d 21h
CrankTV Team League
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Clem vs ByuN
Serral vs SHIN
Online Event
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs Solar
Rogue vs Lambo
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E3

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W4
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
Escore Tournament S3: W5
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.