• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:08
CEST 02:08
KST 09:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview17Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th10Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3Weekly Cups (May 19-25): Hindsight is 20/20?0
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th Serious Question: Mech
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $25,000+ WardiTV 2025 Series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOP Starcraft Global #21 $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Battle.net is not working
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Monster Hunter Wilds Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Research study on team perfo…
TrAiDoS
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 16954 users

Perception of Skill and Balance in the Community

Blogs > T33K3SS3LCH3N
Post a Reply
teekesselchen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany886 Posts
April 10 2010 01:01 GMT
#1
Actually, this topic does not really aim for the TeamLiquid forums but more for german forums I read in. Many people complained about balance and that they just can't compete with certain races, such as Zerg who now say that ZvT matchup was broken now.

I think that most players cannot actually rate the balance from their results because they cannot compare their skill to that of their opponents in most cases.

If all players' skill was rated in a rating between 0 to 100, their results should be explainable by comparing their skill and the matchup balance to their opponent's skill. The other way round, this means that players cannot rate the balance of a matchup when they don't know their or their opponents skill levels.

If a Zerg player wins 50% of his games against Skill-80-Terrans, does that mean that he is equally skilled? Not if the balance is unknown. Maybe he is way more or way less skilled but the matchup is not balanced.

Thus, you have to know a player's skill to get information about the balance by looking at his matches. Most players who flame and whine about balance can't know their or their opponents' skill, for example some Zerg might have been massively overrated and now think their race was broken because they loose against players they had a chance against before the patch.

The only players we can rate more or less accurately are top players. The beta might not be old yet but there already are players of each race who have exeptional results such as Lucifron, Dimaga, DeMuslim and several others. Those are the only players who's skill can be quantified as they must be more or less close to 100 (maybe not of what is possible overall but what is reached yet). So if you check their results, you can draw an approximate picture of balance.

Sure, this method can't always work and won't work for balance amongst all skill levels. If there, for example, is something you have to do in order to maintain a chance of winning in a specific matchup that just requires a certain base skill but does not really bother professional players, a matchup can be balanced for top players but not for the majority of the community.
(Let's say players have to stack Mutas to win against Terrans, very good players won't have a problem with that, a little worse players might be struggling with their multitasking and have a disadvantage over Terran, bad players won't be able to do it at all, but on their skill level it possibly won't be so important anyways :D).

All in all, I just think that there is way too much whining going on from players who don't even try to be objective about their games. They don't see "oh wow I got supply blocked right before the push so I lost", they just see "I lost again against this stupid race!" and complain about it in all forums they know.

*
When they were introduced, he made a witticism, hoping to be liked. She laughed extremely hard, hoping to be liked. Then each drove home alone, staring straight ahead, with the very same twist to their faces.
DeathSpank
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1029 Posts
April 10 2010 01:16 GMT
#2
I always check to see what league/division my opponent is in after I play them. People who whine deserve to lose.
yes.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
April 10 2010 02:47 GMT
#3
If the really really bad players feel a matchup is too unbalanced then they will either leave the game or switch to another race.

These guys will never advance in rank... because they don't play enough games to get the points to advance... but since one race may be easier: eg mass marauders as terrans... they will win more than 50% of their games against equally bad 1-5 skill level opponents. If a Terran and Zerg player have just finished the campaign... the terran shouldn't be given an automatic win and the game will be unbalanced at a lower skill level(given skill level is based on how much time one has played the game). It's probably impossible for balance to be achieved across all skill levels and therefore we should hope that it is as good as possible across the 1-89 levels, and damn near perfect at the 90-100 level.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
unit
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2621 Posts
April 10 2010 02:51 GMT
#4
On April 10 2010 10:16 DeathSpank wrote:
People who whine deserve to lose.

This is exactly the case
teekesselchen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany886 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-10 03:26:36
April 10 2010 03:15 GMT
#5
On April 10 2010 11:47 obesechicken13 wrote:
If the really really bad players feel a matchup is too unbalanced then they will either leave the game or switch to another race.

These guys will never advance in rank... because they don't play enough games to get the points to advance... but since one race may be easier: eg mass marauders as terrans... they will win more than 50% of their games against equally bad 1-5 skill level opponents. If a Terran and Zerg player have just finished the campaign... the terran shouldn't be given an automatic win and the game will be unbalanced at a lower skill level(given skill level is based on how much time one has played the game). It's probably impossible for balance to be achieved across all skill levels and therefore we should hope that it is as good as possible across the 1-89 levels, and damn near perfect at the 90-100 level.


Sadly they do advance :D
Maybe it's a thing thats special for germany. The prejudice that germans complain all the time may proof true for multiplayer games.
Just to give you one example (respond to patch 8): "30% of Zerg will switch race now -.-" (posted by a Zerg ofc - Still he won't switch race, maybe deep in his heart he feels the righteosness of Patch 8 :D ). Also just got insulted by a weeping zerg after a match who has 1550 rating (platinum) and said that he can't possibly ever win on terran with hydras only having 80 hp and Terran beeing so lame race because they have "5 harrassing units". Actually all he played was Roaches/Hydras and expanding all over the place without giving any pressure or a real gameplan and allowing me to harass him as I pleased.

Forums are full of people who are not even total noobs but really don't EVER spend a thought on the fact that their previous results could be better than their skill because balance was bad by giving them an advantage.

Also a zerg who almost stepped into austrian national team (quite a good player though he admits to be some levels below players such as german national team Socke, HasuObs, XlorD and so on, think he is around 1650 rating Platinum right now) keeps on complaining, for instance that Thors actually do counter mutas and mutas would be extremely underpowered since thor's air AoE.

Gotta say that TL community is much more constructive about tactics. Lets take this thread title: "[Q] PVZ how to fight mass muta?" - I'm kinda sure that 85% of german posts about the same problem would be titled "macht Mutas endlich schwächer -.-" ("Nerf mutas already -.-")
When they were introduced, he made a witticism, hoping to be liked. She laughed extremely hard, hoping to be liked. Then each drove home alone, staring straight ahead, with the very same twist to their faces.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Online Event
00:00
LATAM SC2 League: Ro8
CranKy Ducklings32
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft584
monkeys_forever101
RuFF_SC2 61
Livibee 34
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 857
Aegong 87
Icarus 7
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm66
Counter-Strike
Fnx 2210
Foxcn474
taco 413
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0962
hungrybox472
AZ_Axe117
Mew2King86
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby3561
Other Games
summit1g11407
tarik_tv8183
FrodaN1177
shahzam827
ViBE275
Maynarde206
elazer152
Sick50
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream1399
Other Games
gamesdonequick864
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH42
• davetesta39
• HeavenSC 28
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki46
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift6441
• Shiphtur651
Other Games
• imaqtpie1386
• Scarra766
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
9h 52m
Bellum Gens Elite
10h 52m
WardiTV Invitational
10h 52m
Replay Cast
23h 52m
OSC
23h 52m
Bellum Gens Elite
1d 10h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 13h
BSL 2v2 ProLeague
1d 18h
Replay Cast
1d 23h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
[ Show More ]
SC Evo League
2 days
Bellum Gens Elite
2 days
Fire Grow Cup
2 days
CSO Contender
2 days
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
StRyKeR vs MadiNho
Cross vs UltrA
TT1 vs JDConan
Bonyth vs Sziky
Replay Cast
2 days
SOOP Global
3 days
Creator vs Rogue
Cure vs Classic
SOOP
3 days
SHIN vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
AllThingsProtoss
3 days
Fire Grow Cup
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
3 days
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
GSL Code S
6 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.