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I've discovered my internet doesn't disconnect after 9-10pm, so I waited to play until then today. It's much better being able to play without being on tilt over disconnections. I'm getting my ISP to come out and hopefully do something so that I'm able to at least have the option to play earlier in the day.
Most my games today have revolved around early timing attacks, which seem to work quite well in most cases. TvP I go for an early marine/marauder push once stim finishes and most of the time the game can end there, but if the protoss has experience with it they won't die from it. It's nice to have that early aggression, even if the attack doesn't kill the protoss, the way terran works now you can do something like that and not be too behind as long as you do decent damage.
I've definitely found that skipping scv production for earlier timings is a useful thing to do, especially getting orbital up early, mules are essential for terran. Scouting can be a pain if you think they might be doing a fast tech build, but with the early timing attacks the only information I need is from my first scv, and a few suicide marines afterwards to see unit count/composition.
TvZ I've been doing a fast +1 weapons timing attack, and it works quite well. I'm still playing around with the timing, but it involves getting three rax, getting stim/shields/+1 and moving out with a decent amount of marines/sometimes marauders. Stimmed rines with early +1 do a ton of damage, and if the zerg does any fast expand build you can punish them. So far a decent sized hydra/roach combo can deal with the attack, but you can still do nice amounts of damage.
To avoid more time wasted on disconnecting every other game during the day, I'm going to spend the time going over my replays, picking out the ones for certain builds and organize them. Then go back and study the relative timings and compare the different builds I come up against. Hopefully I'll have a nice organized list of build orders to try out once I start playing and move on from there.
Looks like I'm going to be staying as terran, there's a lot I want to keep figuring out with them before I considering switching to learn another race. What would be nice is practice partners, so if anyone that is in the beta wants to practice with me feel free to add me, DarkCell.sky
i wish they would add channels T_T
 
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Sup DC.
I got two issues I'm concerned with, since I can't really play the game. So I'll just ask you to reply here, rather than bump my thread. If you won't, just remember that I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE!
Right, so...
First issue: tech switching in mid/late game. I wrote about it here but it seems that nobody who actually played the game wanted to answer me. Honestly, I suspect people are just too set on SC to break the pattern even when it's OBVIOUSLY not working. But I can't tell for sure since it's happening in way too many replays and with decent/experienced players.
Second issue: macro builds.
I noticed you were mentioning timing rushes and such, and I just realized that I very rarely seen things like cannon fast expand vs terran followed up by a few gateways, or just mass gateways in general. It seems that everyone is focusing on microing things around, but quite honestly, in PvT at least, from what I've seen, you're pretty much hopeless if you'll try to engage in micro battles with the terran due to the nature of terran's units. So why not just slap 3 cannons in front with a few zeals, or just rush the zeal speed and mass-em up. I think zeals are really underused in PvT.
I get that you may not need expansions early due to the new macro techniques, but they just set up for a short game. Is there no way to turtle? Have you tried it? The closest to this I've seen was that ret vs ?! guy that I mention earlier, where ret goes 2x expo with sieges, but then insists on using siege + hellion to fight air units, when slapping down 4 barracks would have probably cleaned up really fast even in mid/late game.
Thanks for the time you're taking for us non-beta peoples. Luff you long time.
p.s.: WTF I made the weirdest typo ever.
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On February 24 2010 00:17 CubEdIn wrote:Sup DC. I got two issues I'm concerned with, since I can't really play the game. So I'll just ask you to reply here, rather than bump my thread. If you won't, just remember that I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE! Right, so... First issue: tech switching in mid/late game. I wrote about it here but it seems that nobody who actually played the game wanted to answer me. Honestly, I suspect people are just too set on SC to break the pattern even when it's OBVIOUSLY not working. But I can't tell for sure since it's happening in way too many replays and with decent/experienced players. Second issue: macro builds. I noticed you were mentioning timing rushes and such, and I just realized that I very rarely seen things like cannon fast expand vs terran followed up by a few gateways, or just mass gateways in general. It seems that everyone is focusing on microing things around, but quite honestly, in PvT at least, from what I've seen, you're pretty much hopeless if you'll try to engage in micro battles with the terran due to the nature of terran's units. So why not just slap 3 cannons in front with a few zeals, or just rush the zeal speed and mass-em up. I think zeals are really underused in PvT. I get that you may not need expansions early due to the new macro techniques, but they just set up for a short game. Is there no way to turtle? Have you tried it? The closest to this I've seen was that ret vs ?! guy that I mention earlier, where ret goes 2x expo with sieges, but then insists on using siege + hellion to fight air units, when slapping down 4 barracks would have probably cleaned up really fast even in mid/late game. Thanks for the time you're taking for us non-beta peoples. Luff you long time. p.s.: WTF I made the weirdest typo ever.
I think no one replied to your other thread(that has played the game) because it doesn't sound like you've played it yourself. You mention making a lot of gateways somethin etc. You don't need a lot of gateways. If you keep your macro up, just a handful of warpgates and sometimes the nexus buff keep your minerals down just fine.
And yes, you can turtle, though it's a lot harder on this one than the last.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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On February 24 2010 02:23 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2010 00:17 CubEdIn wrote:Sup DC. I got two issues I'm concerned with, since I can't really play the game. So I'll just ask you to reply here, rather than bump my thread. If you won't, just remember that I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE! Right, so... First issue: tech switching in mid/late game. I wrote about it here but it seems that nobody who actually played the game wanted to answer me. Honestly, I suspect people are just too set on SC to break the pattern even when it's OBVIOUSLY not working. But I can't tell for sure since it's happening in way too many replays and with decent/experienced players. Second issue: macro builds. I noticed you were mentioning timing rushes and such, and I just realized that I very rarely seen things like cannon fast expand vs terran followed up by a few gateways, or just mass gateways in general. It seems that everyone is focusing on microing things around, but quite honestly, in PvT at least, from what I've seen, you're pretty much hopeless if you'll try to engage in micro battles with the terran due to the nature of terran's units. So why not just slap 3 cannons in front with a few zeals, or just rush the zeal speed and mass-em up. I think zeals are really underused in PvT. I get that you may not need expansions early due to the new macro techniques, but they just set up for a short game. Is there no way to turtle? Have you tried it? The closest to this I've seen was that ret vs ?! guy that I mention earlier, where ret goes 2x expo with sieges, but then insists on using siege + hellion to fight air units, when slapping down 4 barracks would have probably cleaned up really fast even in mid/late game. Thanks for the time you're taking for us non-beta peoples. Luff you long time. p.s.: WTF I made the weirdest typo ever. I think no one replied to your other thread(that has played the game) because it doesn't sound like you've played it yourself. You mention making a lot of gateways somethin etc. You don't need a lot of gateways. If you keep your macro up, just a handful of warpgates and sometimes the nexus buff keep your minerals down just fine. And yes, you can turtle, though it's a lot harder on this one than the last.
I already said I didn't play the game. Even in the thread itself, that was the whole point. I thought that non-beta-players could also posts questions and such.
And I know that you can keep your minerals down, but that's because most of the games I've seen revolve around people playing out of 1-2 bases tops. Even the long ones. So what I'm talking about is playing a semi-risky build at start, and then doing some sort of timed attack in mid-game off 4-5 gateways. Kind-of like playing 1-base-4-gate goon all-in in starcraft 1, but with an expansion and a bunch of units.
...which inevitably brings me to another thing: I haven't seen huge armies. Somehow, I can't tell where that 140psi goes. It just seems to be 1-2 groups of units at best (and no, not because of infinite selection).
Either way, I was talking about getting more low-tier units like zeals with speed and stalkers with blink and trying to push a terran like a ling/hydra sauron zerg pushes toss. I'm not saying it's gonna work, I just asked if people tried it, or what seem to be the obvious issues with it.
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On February 24 2010 02:41 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2010 02:23 danl9rm wrote:On February 24 2010 00:17 CubEdIn wrote:Sup DC. I got two issues I'm concerned with, since I can't really play the game. So I'll just ask you to reply here, rather than bump my thread. If you won't, just remember that I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE! Right, so... First issue: tech switching in mid/late game. I wrote about it here but it seems that nobody who actually played the game wanted to answer me. Honestly, I suspect people are just too set on SC to break the pattern even when it's OBVIOUSLY not working. But I can't tell for sure since it's happening in way too many replays and with decent/experienced players. Second issue: macro builds. I noticed you were mentioning timing rushes and such, and I just realized that I very rarely seen things like cannon fast expand vs terran followed up by a few gateways, or just mass gateways in general. It seems that everyone is focusing on microing things around, but quite honestly, in PvT at least, from what I've seen, you're pretty much hopeless if you'll try to engage in micro battles with the terran due to the nature of terran's units. So why not just slap 3 cannons in front with a few zeals, or just rush the zeal speed and mass-em up. I think zeals are really underused in PvT. I get that you may not need expansions early due to the new macro techniques, but they just set up for a short game. Is there no way to turtle? Have you tried it? The closest to this I've seen was that ret vs ?! guy that I mention earlier, where ret goes 2x expo with sieges, but then insists on using siege + hellion to fight air units, when slapping down 4 barracks would have probably cleaned up really fast even in mid/late game. Thanks for the time you're taking for us non-beta peoples. Luff you long time. p.s.: WTF I made the weirdest typo ever. I think no one replied to your other thread(that has played the game) because it doesn't sound like you've played it yourself. You mention making a lot of gateways somethin etc. You don't need a lot of gateways. If you keep your macro up, just a handful of warpgates and sometimes the nexus buff keep your minerals down just fine. And yes, you can turtle, though it's a lot harder on this one than the last. I already said I didn't play the game. Even in the thread itself, that was the whole point. I thought that non-beta-players could also posts questions and such. And I know that you can keep your minerals down, but that's because most of the games I've seen revolve around people playing out of 1-2 bases tops. Even the long ones. So what I'm talking about is playing a semi-risky build at start, and then doing some sort of timed attack in mid-game off 4-5 gateways. Kind-of like playing 1-base-4-gate goon all-in in starcraft 1, but with an expansion and a bunch of units. ...which inevitably brings me to another thing: I haven't seen huge armies. Somehow, I can't tell where that 140psi goes. It just seems to be 1-2 groups of units at best (and no, not because of infinite selection). Either way, I was talking about getting more low-tier units like zeals with speed and stalkers with blink and trying to push a terran like a ling/hydra sauron zerg pushes toss. I'm not saying it's gonna work, I just asked if people tried it, or what seem to be the obvious issues with it.
I've actually noticed when playing that the natural clumping of units makes big armies seem a lot smaller than they actually are. Big armies don't seem to grow any more after a certain point, especially when I have a M+M blob. Probably just something we will have to get used to.
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On February 24 2010 00:17 CubEdIn wrote:Sup DC. I got two issues I'm concerned with, since I can't really play the game. So I'll just ask you to reply here, rather than bump my thread. If you won't, just remember that I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE! Right, so... First issue: tech switching in mid/late game. I wrote about it here but it seems that nobody who actually played the game wanted to answer me. Honestly, I suspect people are just too set on SC to break the pattern even when it's OBVIOUSLY not working. But I can't tell for sure since it's happening in way too many replays and with decent/experienced players. Second issue: macro builds. I noticed you were mentioning timing rushes and such, and I just realized that I very rarely seen things like cannon fast expand vs terran followed up by a few gateways, or just mass gateways in general. It seems that everyone is focusing on microing things around, but quite honestly, in PvT at least, from what I've seen, you're pretty much hopeless if you'll try to engage in micro battles with the terran due to the nature of terran's units. So why not just slap 3 cannons in front with a few zeals, or just rush the zeal speed and mass-em up. I think zeals are really underused in PvT. I get that you may not need expansions early due to the new macro techniques, but they just set up for a short game. Is there no way to turtle? Have you tried it? The closest to this I've seen was that ret vs ?! guy that I mention earlier, where ret goes 2x expo with sieges, but then insists on using siege + hellion to fight air units, when slapping down 4 barracks would have probably cleaned up really fast even in mid/late game. Thanks for the time you're taking for us non-beta peoples. Luff you long time. p.s.: WTF I made the weirdest typo ever.
I will reply to the thread you made here before answering your second question.
Currently, as everyone is still new to the game, it becomes much easier to fall into the trap of thinking that "more of x will win" instead of "he has y, what can i make." It has partly to do with not knowing exactly the right unit composition you should be using vs. certain units, and incorporating the use of spells.
As for switching your tech or unit composition, it really isn't hard to do. You don't have to backtech and pick up a bunch of marines to fight air for instance (although that is an option), you can just throw down two starports and tack on a reactor/tech lab and pump out vikings. Throw in a Thor and you can deal with most air like that. Ghosts are incredibly useful, but when you aren't going a bio build it's really easy to forget you can use them for EMP.
In time as people get better, this will change and people will more easily flow between one stage of the game to another based on what their opponent is doing. Broodwar wasn't completely static, the main bulk of a tvp was tanks and vultures, but you were forced to change and get a few goliaths/vessels vs. arbiters, or later goliaths/wraiths vs. carrier. Same thing in SC2, once people figure out exactly what will work in those situations it will become much easier to switch techs.
Onto your second question. Fast expanding, from what I can tell, is a hard thing to pull off. Partly because the maps have short rush distances, but protoss and zerg can both tech up fast, and shit out units fast. Not that FE isn't viable, I think it is, it's just finding the right build order to use it in.
Buildings die fast in SC2, that is a big factor when doing a FE. Three cannons as a protoss can be taken down in a few seconds vs. stimmed marine/marauder. A fast group of +1 marines stimmed can take down a hatchery in a few seconds. This might be able to be solved by people doing something clever, like forcefields blocking an attack as protoss, but as it stands, it's really hard to pull off a fast expansion similar to broodwar. Most of the time I expand early enough, but it has to be right after a timed attack. TvP my goal is push out with an early stimmed marauder/marine group and try to do as much damage as possible. At the same time I expand, snag up a factory and send my scvs back to my second gas. If the protoss fends the attack, I can fall back and it can be easy enough to defend (unless I failed at micro).
Expansions are needed, at least for terran. Minerals not so much, but having an extra two gas opens so many windows. Gas is my biggest problem, and my solution is finding ways to do a timing attack while securing my expansion. I think being aggressive is currently the key for taking your natural as terran. Even in TvZ, I do my timing attack with +1 and expand. TvT is a little different but the same concept can be applied.
Give it time before making too many definitive opinions about how the game will pan out, after a month or two when more people are playing and there's at least a basic understanding/grasp on the races will we begin to see real trends begin. For now it's things like an early timing attack that work the best, or a quick tech up to marauder/viking etc. Of course this is all from a terran perspective, since I haven't used protoss/zerg. Zerg can grab their natural, but I can easily punish them for it. A few protoss have tried a fast expansion but it's so easy to break. Maybe there's better players that have found ways to do it, but so far the people I've played, a straight up no aggression expansion will get them killed.
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On February 24 2010 02:41 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2010 02:23 danl9rm wrote:On February 24 2010 00:17 CubEdIn wrote:Sup DC. I got two issues I'm concerned with, since I can't really play the game. So I'll just ask you to reply here, rather than bump my thread. If you won't, just remember that I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE! Right, so... First issue: tech switching in mid/late game. I wrote about it here but it seems that nobody who actually played the game wanted to answer me. Honestly, I suspect people are just too set on SC to break the pattern even when it's OBVIOUSLY not working. But I can't tell for sure since it's happening in way too many replays and with decent/experienced players. Second issue: macro builds. I noticed you were mentioning timing rushes and such, and I just realized that I very rarely seen things like cannon fast expand vs terran followed up by a few gateways, or just mass gateways in general. It seems that everyone is focusing on microing things around, but quite honestly, in PvT at least, from what I've seen, you're pretty much hopeless if you'll try to engage in micro battles with the terran due to the nature of terran's units. So why not just slap 3 cannons in front with a few zeals, or just rush the zeal speed and mass-em up. I think zeals are really underused in PvT. I get that you may not need expansions early due to the new macro techniques, but they just set up for a short game. Is there no way to turtle? Have you tried it? The closest to this I've seen was that ret vs ?! guy that I mention earlier, where ret goes 2x expo with sieges, but then insists on using siege + hellion to fight air units, when slapping down 4 barracks would have probably cleaned up really fast even in mid/late game. Thanks for the time you're taking for us non-beta peoples. Luff you long time. p.s.: WTF I made the weirdest typo ever. I think no one replied to your other thread(that has played the game) because it doesn't sound like you've played it yourself. You mention making a lot of gateways somethin etc. You don't need a lot of gateways. If you keep your macro up, just a handful of warpgates and sometimes the nexus buff keep your minerals down just fine. And yes, you can turtle, though it's a lot harder on this one than the last. I already said I didn't play the game. Even in the thread itself, that was the whole point. I thought that non-beta-players could also posts questions and such. And I know that you can keep your minerals down, but that's because most of the games I've seen revolve around people playing out of 1-2 bases tops. Even the long ones. So what I'm talking about is playing a semi-risky build at start, and then doing some sort of timed attack in mid-game off 4-5 gateways. Kind-of like playing 1-base-4-gate goon all-in in starcraft 1, but with an expansion and a bunch of units. ...which inevitably brings me to another thing: I haven't seen huge armies. Somehow, I can't tell where that 140psi goes. It just seems to be 1-2 groups of units at best (and no, not because of infinite selection). Either way, I was talking about getting more low-tier units like zeals with speed and stalkers with blink and trying to push a terran like a ling/hydra sauron zerg pushes toss. I'm not saying it's gonna work, I just asked if people tried it, or what seem to be the obvious issues with it.
i've had several long games with high amounts of units, and it definitely doesn't look like a big army when it's bio, but mech armies can get pretty large. It has a lot to do with unit pathing/clumping, they are able to get really close now and have no problems with pathing, so they can move in a much tighter group.
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watching that replay, he didn't have stim when he attacked (only +1 weapons) and barely any marauders. Marauders are the key to a early timing attack in TvP, even though stalkers do their bonus dmg, a stimmed marauder is crazy good. I'll look over my replays and compile a few to show what my build is. It's not perfect, but it's not meant to kill the protoss, just delay them and get up an expansion while teching.
hrm what is the best site to upload sc2 replays?
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On February 24 2010 06:41 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:watching that replay, he didn't have stim when he attacked (only +1 weapons) and barely any marauders. Marauders are the key to a early timing attack in TvP, even though stalkers do their bonus dmg, a stimmed marauder is crazy good. I'll look over my replays and compile a few to show what my build is. It's not perfect, but it's not meant to kill the protoss, just delay them and get up an expansion while teching. hrm what is the best site to upload sc2 replays?
http://2shared.com/ is fast and requires no wait time before download. However, I don't know if it expires fast and/or has limited downloads.
If you want them to be permanent (though I doubt you do). Tell me and I'll put them on starcraft.ro with permalink.
P.S.: I understand what you mean with the expansions and stuff, and the general trends of the game. But there were matches when people just went x ground vs ground unit while the opponent was massing air vs ground units. In that scenario, more of x will never beat y.
But I get the general idea. I was just hoping to see a lot more experimenting and weird stuff right away. I loved the replay when the KMB (i think) goes Mothership vs Artoisis. Art was in his base with a few marines/marauders, and then Mothership comes out, Artoisis goes "what" (like right that instant), and then rofls his way to defeat due to no real defense vs air. I was just hoping I'd see more of that I guess. 
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i hate motherships, they take so long to kill T_T
DarkCell (T) vs zOObie (P)
Hope that works for the replays. There's four of them that I played vs. zOObie doing the marinemarauder timing attack to varying degrees. the inconsistency in the build has to do with me being bad at 4am, but that's the basic gist of it. I also failed miserably in my transition to expansion/tech in almost all the games, but my main focus was how fast can i do a timing attack with stim and how well does it work.
Oh and these weren't practice games, it was a ladder game and somehow we played each other four times in a row.
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EPT
