On December 26 2009 18:54 invy wrote: Flash is probably the best player in the world atm. But he sucks cause one word: cheeeeeeese.
He ruined series v Jaedong. Nobody likes to watch the game lasts 3 minutes. Cheap and lame way to win, he doesnt need that. Yes, you can argue that he has the skill to cheese Jaedong but its still lame. I expected to wath good game and what I got was ****.. I was dissappointed.
Jaedong owns bo5s because he doesn't feel trends. He literally does not give a shit if he's behind 0-2 and will play just as hard as he would if he were ahead 2-0. He doesn't feel trends because he doesn't use the higher functions of his brain while he's playing. That doesn't mean he doesn't use tactics and strategy, it just means that he performs tactics and strategy almost entirely by instinct. Jaedong treats E-SPORTS like a physical sport and has all the benefits of that attitude: inhuman endurance, inhuman focus, and superfast reaction time. He's as close to physically perfect as progaming will ever get.
He's not mentally perfect because he doesn't use his mind. He gets raped by well-thought out, well-executed strategic builds like what Flash pulled out on HBR yesterday and what Fantasy pulled on Outsider in SPL Grand Finals or what Canata pulled in their series in Avalon or what Skyhigh pulled on Destination. He doesn't get bogged down by thinking about negative trends, but he also doesn't fully recognize that other players know he has the best physical ever and will try to get around that any way they can, by fair means or foul. Since ZvZ is a very narrow matchup he can burn completely into his nervous system and ZvP favors Zerg, his ignorance in those regards doesn't hinder him significantly. But TvZ favors Terran and it can really hurt him in that matchup. He should have known damn well that Flash was going to cheese him but he didn't. That's not mental perfection, not even close.
Also, oov is the greatest bo5 player ever. Jaedong is close, but oov is the best.
On December 26 2009 20:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 26 2009 18:54 invy wrote: Flash is probably the best player in the world atm. But he sucks cause one word: cheeeeeeese.
He ruined series v Jaedong. Nobody likes to watch the game lasts 3 minutes. Cheap and lame way to win, he doesnt need that. Yes, you can argue that he has the skill to cheese Jaedong but its still lame. I expected to wath good game and what I got was ****.. I was dissappointed.
So Boxer sucks a lot, and has always sucked, following your ill logic.
You guys are complaining all day long about the good old days when people were using other strategy than 1 rax FE vs 3 Hatch Muta we have all seen and played 67563756768 times. Someone comes and play a prepared strategy, non standard stuff and you are all crying like jackass because it's "gay" and "cheese".
Buy a brain or something. You will notice that players in their prime cheese a lot. When they stop cheesing, that means that they are not as good as before. Cheesing needs a lot of confidence, of mind game. Cheesing is great. It keeps the game alive, it question standard playing which is incredibly greedy if you think about it.
Flash sucked when he started playing only more and more greedy: 14 CC after 14 CC. That sucks. But seing him stomping the best zerg in the world with a perfectly prepared bunker rush, with a 7 rax perfectly timed to catch first overlord, that's just amazing.
Look at Morrow replay pack. He won an incredible number of game with the same rush. So what. You know what is the conclusion? The conclusion is not that he is a cheesy noob, the conclusion is that he has been smart and everybody suck balls so hard that they can't defend against a bunker rush. If you can't defend at all against a bunker rush, then don't open 12 hatch, because, simple as that, you don't have the level for this opening. And if you can defend but somehow you fail, then don't rage at your opponent who has balls and took risks.
Lol don't open 12 hatch..
Try overpool/9 pool vs a wall (terran opening vulture) (especially with ling speed), it's fucking hard to come back.
Try 12 pool vs 1 rax FE. The timing is very different, and you may not have good muta micro to do very fast 2 hatch muta.
Then you learn to defend against bunker rush. Period. And if you can't, then again, you don't master your build.
On December 26 2009 22:03 EvoChamber wrote: Jaedong owns bo5s because he doesn't feel trends. He literally does not give a shit if he's behind 0-2 and will play just as hard as he would if he were ahead 2-0. He doesn't feel trends because he doesn't use the higher functions of his brain while he's playing. That doesn't mean he doesn't use tactics and strategy, it just means that he performs tactics and strategy almost entirely by instinct. Jaedong treats E-SPORTS like a physical sport and has all the benefits of that attitude: inhuman endurance, inhuman focus, and superfast reaction time. He's as close to physically perfect as progaming will ever get.
He's not mentally perfect because he doesn't use his mind. He gets raped by well-thought out, well-executed strategic builds like what Flash pulled out on HBR yesterday and what Fantasy pulled on Outsider in SPL Grand Finals or what Canata pulled in their series in Avalon or what Skyhigh pulled on Destination. He doesn't get bogged down by thinking about negative trends, but he also doesn't fully recognize that other players know he has the best physical ever and will try to get around that any way they can, by fair means or foul. Since ZvZ is a very narrow matchup he can burn completely into his nervous system and ZvP favors Zerg, his ignorance in those regards doesn't hinder him significantly. But TvZ favors Terran and it can really hurt him in that matchup. He should have known damn well that Flash was going to cheese him but he didn't. That's not mental perfection, not even close.
Also, oov is the greatest bo5 player ever. Jaedong is close, but oov is the best.
On December 26 2009 18:54 invy wrote: Flash is probably the best player in the world atm. But he sucks cause one word: cheeeeeeese.
He ruined series v Jaedong. Nobody likes to watch the game lasts 3 minutes. Cheap and lame way to win, he doesnt need that. Yes, you can argue that he has the skill to cheese Jaedong but its still lame. I expected to wath good game and what I got was ****.. I was dissappointed.
Actually Koreans love to watch cheese. Seriously.
The fate of the game is up to a handfull of units, whats not to love?
On December 26 2009 18:54 invy wrote: Flash is probably the best player in the world atm. But he sucks cause one word: cheeeeeeese.
He ruined series v Jaedong. Nobody likes to watch the game lasts 3 minutes. Cheap and lame way to win, he doesnt need that. Yes, you can argue that he has the skill to cheese Jaedong but its still lame. I expected to wath good game and what I got was ****.. I was dissappointed.
That is definitely not the only way to beat him -_- have you seen stork beat him lately? I believe so, without cheese, also I believe it was JangBi(?) that beat him in fighting spirit very recently.
On December 26 2009 18:54 invy wrote: Flash is probably the best player in the world atm. But he sucks cause one word: cheeeeeeese.
He ruined series v Jaedong. Nobody likes to watch the game lasts 3 minutes. Cheap and lame way to win, he doesnt need that. Yes, you can argue that he has the skill to cheese Jaedong but its still lame. I expected to wath good game and what I got was ****.. I was dissappointed.
Actually Koreans love to watch cheese. Seriously.
The fate of the game is up to a handfull of units, whats not to love?
Yeah, I mean it's just like ZvZ only, unlike ZvZ, you can actually do more than just utilize the same few units every game!
I say to all the people who hate Flash cause of cheese: Watch something else! Seriously, the guy beats you every way possible, and can even beat you with cheese. You guys hate him cause he gets the job done, and not the way you want it to be. All progamers/foreigners/D players on iccup cheese. And when someone complains about cheese by making a thread, they get their asses flamed off tl.net, or any site for that matter. But whe Flash does it its wrong? Cause you were nerd robbed from a good game? Get over it you whiny noobs.
Since for some reason my internet is freaking out when I try to edit something in my last post: How come people flame Fantasy when he cheesed Jaedong last season, but no one points to when Jaedong 4 pooled Fantasy? Seriously, after Jaedongs great cheese (yes I thought it was awesome) every D- through D+ and quite a few C- players on iccup were 4pooling. Literally, I didnt play one TvZ in the D ranks without dealing with 4 pool.
On December 26 2009 18:54 invy wrote: Flash is probably the best player in the world atm. But he sucks cause one word: cheeeeeeese.
He ruined series v Jaedong. Nobody likes to watch the game lasts 3 minutes. Cheap and lame way to win, he doesnt need that. Yes, you can argue that he has the skill to cheese Jaedong but its still lame. I expected to wath good game and what I got was ****.. I was dissappointed.
This kind of attitude is disgusting.
Flash's play and gameplan were both brilliant. That is why he is a masterful player. Saying that what he did was 'lame' tells me that you don't acknowledge the rules of Starcraft, only your own set of non-rush rules.
Starcraft games do not exist in a vacuum. In a series, players on both sides should expect cheese - and they normally do. You can see this in Jaedong's overlord patterns in 90% of his games. He sends his overlord out to a place that is likely to find cheese.
From Flash's perspective, a well-executed cheese like that was an extremely strong play against Jaedong who is historically an incredibly strong mid-late-game player but falters occasionally to cheese. Flash had almost nothing to lose by cheesing the second game. It was an intelligent decision that obviously paid off.
If you can't appreciate a game like that, you really should pick up some other hobby. That was a very exciting game. If anything, it went on too long. If the only games you can appreciate are 30+ minutes, you should find a NR15 league to watch or you should find some league where all they do is Bo1.
Here's a couple of similarly lame plays from one of the most genius players in the history of Starcraft - two of my favorite games of all time.
After watching Flash dismantle Jaedong it really shows how good he's become. And for those of you saying that the cheese was lame... does it matter when he wins an OSL title? If you were pitted against Jaedong, key being a 1-0 advantage (i.e. you DO have a game you can lose), why not try to end it quickly?
Some people are literally stupid as hell, don't be anal because Jaedong lost in convincing fashion.
On December 27 2009 04:03 KvkG wrote: Is there anything that Jaedong could have done differently to stop that - assuming he went 12 hatch? I mean that strat looked darn near invincible.
On December 27 2009 04:03 KvkG wrote: Is there anything that Jaedong could have done differently to stop that - assuming he went 12 hatch? I mean that strat looked darn near invincible.
not lose his overlord
What happened to poor Jaedong was a perfectly placed barracks. It is impossible for him not to lose that overlord really as he scouted the same way he's scouted thousands of times on that map.
Really I think jaedongs mistake was not leaving 1-2 zerglings to kill the scvs repairing the bunker. Again, he's defended against bunker rushes thousands of times I'm sure and knows exactly what he's doing, but in that situation the fact that all 3 scvs survived prevented the bunker from going down. If you watch that part again you see Jaedong gets an amazingly timed surround but doesnt do anything about the repairing SCVs.
Thats just my thoughts anyway, the attack by Flash really was brilliant though.
On December 27 2009 04:03 KvkG wrote: Is there anything that Jaedong could have done differently to stop that - assuming he went 12 hatch? I mean that strat looked darn near invincible.
Yes, but the overlord was pretty much lost at that point, and the hatch was almost completed.
The choke to the main at heartbreak ridge can be blocked by the zerg with a hatch, or so I hear. So the only thing Jaedong could do was cancel the natural hatchery immediately and rebuild it to block his choke, then play on from there ending up more or less equal to Flash.
Or he could have immediately sent all his lings off into a runby into Flash's base, not engaging the bunker and hope to do enough damage to Flash's defenseless main to even things out.
Attacking the SCVs would not have been possible as suggested in the post above, Flash could just tell the SCVs to repair each other or micro them away. Flash got like 4 SCVs surrounding the bunker really fast so Jaedong couldn't get enough troops around the damn thing to take it down, so it wasn't really a perfectly timed bunker surround either.
EPT
