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Hey guys,
Random musing from me about something "poker" related and SC related. I was wondering about how Elky and others have transitioned to poker and claimed that they viewed SC as being a major factor their success in that game. Basically, that the strategy components of starcraft helped them to become better poker players because both games are about imperfect information and small details.
Well, following that train of thought...
Would it be possible to adopt a "small-ball" style in starcraft? Many of the best tournament players choose to play this way in tournaments because it minimizes the risk of being eliminated. Could someone in the starcraft world adopt a playstyle that emphasizes defense and minimizing risk and have great success?
Obviously the aggressor is always at an advantage, but if there is any significant gap in skill - I'm imagining that the longer a game goes.. the more Player A could pick off the mistakes of Player B. The idea would be to construct builds and a play style that makes it extremely difficult to lose. Over the length of the game, the defensive player could capitalize on small mistakes and eventually take the game.
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Exactly what I thought of as I read it, lol.
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It is a bad mindset, you can't just turtle up no matter what, if someone plays with extreme economic greed you HAVE to attack them.
flow like water right?
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United States47024 Posts
On November 29 2009 15:19 Equaoh wrote:
Flash?
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all of terran's match ups are like this..
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On November 29 2009 15:27 Azrael1111 wrote:
It is a bad mindset, you can't just turtle up no matter what, if someone plays with extreme economic greed you HAVE to attack them.
flow like water right?
Playing defensively doesn't mean you aren't expanding yourself.
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I just thought it was fun to think about this style. I realize Flash sort of embodies what I'm talking about, and yes Terrans do turtle. But this isn't really about turtling in a corner. It's really just a mindset of:
a) I'm better than my opponent
b) I can force my opponent to make mistakes by playing faster/smarter than him.
c) When I have sufficient advantage, I go in for the kill.
d) I remove exploitable weaknesses from my builds in a way that will lengthen the game, but eliminate quick losses.
I don't really even agree that this would be the BEST way to play starcraft in any given match, but it seems like it may be a good style to have in a BO5, for instance. The more information that you can gather about your opponent and his play style, given that you're a better player, the easier future games will be.
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On November 29 2009 15:32 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 15:27 Azrael1111 wrote:
It is a bad mindset, you can't just turtle up no matter what, if someone plays with extreme economic greed you HAVE to attack them.
flow like water right? Playing defensively doesn't mean you aren't expanding yourself.
This, a lot of the time I will play a PvT on icc where the Terran does 2 shop siege expo and then just turtles for a little bit. I naturally get an obs over his factories and expand accordingly. But as I do, he will setup turrets in the middle and slowly expand with his tanks to cover. So it winds up me being on 4-5 bases when he gets his third depending on the map and how many expos i can get away with. Then his attack comes and we go from there, this is one way to deal with the slow push or you can recall. Go for a recall in his main, once his tanks and vults move back to his base recall a different area or run units to that area whichever works.
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I was thinking about this question in regards to why bisu's used a lot of fast cheese strats when he'd be the favourite in the longer game. I think a part of it is that the value of varying your style is greater than the value of perfect safety. By doing something crazy in one game you gain a little edge for doing nothing in following games as opponents scout more, worry more, practice against more scenarios and generally feel dictated to.
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On November 29 2009 15:57 ix wrote:
I was thinking about this question in regards to why bisu's used a lot of fast cheese strats when he'd be the favourite in the longer game. I think a part of it is that the value of varying your style is greater than the value of perfect safety. By doing something crazy in one game you gain a little edge for doing nothing in following games as opponents scout more, worry more, practice against more scenarios and generally feel dictated to.
Wow, that is a very good way of looking at it. What I was thinking is that players who cheese or try to end it quickly when they could do better in later game might do it because the other player knows that they are at a disadvantage if they let the game go too long so they will try to end it early. In which case both players will be in a similar situation build wise.
On November 29 2009 15:37 Fzero wrote:
I just thought it was fun to think about this style. I realize Flash sort of embodies what I'm talking about, and yes Terrans do turtle. But this isn't really about turtling in a corner. It's really just a mindset of:
a) I'm better than my opponent
b) I can force my opponent to make mistakes by playing faster/smarter than him.
c) When I have sufficient advantage, I go in for the kill.
d) I remove exploitable weaknesses from my builds in a way that will lengthen the game, but eliminate quick losses.
I don't really even agree that this would be the BEST way to play starcraft in any given match, but it seems like it may be a good style to have in a BO5, for instance. The more information that you can gather about your opponent and his play style, given that you're a better player, the easier future games will be.
Yeah I wouldn't think that this style of play would be very interesting to watch. The BO5 example is pretty good, if you play a long game you will be able to try out different things like drops, recalls whatever the case might be and see where he is weak and cannot defend as well or at what time during the game a good time to attack him is, based on his macro ( If he is going for army first or expos first).
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On November 29 2009 15:19 Equaoh wrote:
Flash
edit: also jaedong to be honest
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On November 29 2009 16:59 Bill Murray wrote:edit: also jaedong to be honest
not when he 12 hatches -_-
edit: i meant in ZvZ
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I would compare small ball to Fantasy vulture harass tbh...
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On November 29 2009 15:28 TheYango wrote:
But imo you need to vary your play in proSC, otherwise you can't stay at top for too long.
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On November 29 2009 15:57 ix wrote:
I was thinking about this question in regards to why bisu's used a lot of fast cheese strats when he'd be the favourite in the longer game. I think a part of it is that the value of varying your style is greater than the value of perfect safety. By doing something crazy in one game you gain a little edge for doing nothing in following games as opponents scout more, worry more, practice against more scenarios and generally feel dictated to.
It is very similar to poker in this respect. Every so often Bisu will "bluff" by cheesing but everyone is so scared of his macro (i.e. monster hands as a poker metaphor) that they do not expect him to cheese and he almost never loses when he does.
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It's ... Well. Analogies are infinite! Starcraft is like anything you want it to be, given a strong language skills.
I always thought those crossover pros meant more in confidence, and sustained mental concentration.
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EPT
