|
So I just had a really frustrating talk with a close friend of mine..
She's really talented in music and us both being music majors, I was telling her about how one of my dreams is to win a big competition and play in a huge hall with a sold out crowd with a major orchestra behind me. Like playing in Carnegie hall
with the New York Philharmonic or something. Now I regularly use this dream to motivate myself to practice my instrument (as opposed to practicing starcraft). After hearing this dream of mine, she responds with the classic "oh winning isnt everything, you should play for yourself instead of trying to beat other people, dont feel insecure you know you're good without physical proof and you don't need to win, and so on"
I understand that winning isn't everything and don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing music without needing to try and beat others but it's just a dream I have to win a competition and play with an orchestra. Not even a huge one, just any competition.
So anyway, she goes on telling me how winning isn't important at all and you'll never win if you actually care about winning and how winning doesnt mean you're the best, just the luckiest. The thing is, she is unbelievable and wins national competitions left and right. She goes on by saying how she doesn't really even want to win or try to win and wishes she doesn't sometimes. She's actually fulfilled my dream many times over and is telling me how it's not important and not worth it at all.
Her general nonchalance attitude towards winning (which I know I'll never actually do) somewhat bothers me and I try to explain to her that she doesn't know what if feels like to not be able to win at all and realize that you probably never will win ever for the rest of your life. She tells me i'm just being insecure and unless I start playing for myself as opposed to winning, I'll never get better. The thing is, I don't really feel that i'm trying to reassure myself, I just want to have the glorious feeling of working hard, beating the gauntlet, and walking out onto that stage, in the spotlight. She responds by telling me competitions are stupid anyway and aren't good measures of how good you are. She tells me she's lost more competitions than she's won and she's basically in the same boat as me.
Basically, for the next hour or so, the conversation is me telling her how she doesn't appreciate the spotlight and winning a competitions and her telling me how winning isn't important and I'm being insecure.
I feel like a poor person barely able to feed his family on a day to day basis, talking to Paris Hilton who is telling me how money isn't important and doesnt lead to happiness. I recognize that money =/= happiness but I dont think Ms. Hilton fully appreciates all the luxuries of her life and I personally feel that she's not in any position to tell me money isn't important. Also, just because she can't buy the last Ferrari to complete her set, she is most definitely not in the same boat as me not being able to buy enough food for my family. Obviously an extreme example but I feel it's an accurate parallel.
*note: don't get me wrong, she deserves all of the things she wins, she works incredibly hard and it pays off but at the same time, hard work doesn't get you very far in music without natural ability
So I turn to the wisdom of TL.
Am I really just being insecure and is it wrong for me to have my top goal as winning as opposed to becoming a better player?
Are really talented/lucky people unable to understand what it's like to be a "normal" person trying to achieve something? Do they under-appreciate and take granted things that others would give an arm and a leg for?
EDIT: Starcraft Analogy
with apologies to Idra, i mean no offense 
It's kinda like..
Idra: Hey Jaedong! I have this dream of one day winning a televised proleague match! Wouldn't that be awesome? I would invite all my friends to come watch the match and It would be totally badass!
Jaedong: oh winning isnt that important, winning a proleague match isn't that big a deal. I don't even try to win. Just play for the love of the game! XOXO
Idra: -.-
 
|
i think that goals should be very unrealistic, to quote something i heard somewhere, "it's better to aim high and miss than to aim low and hit".
|
I think she's giving you advice that most people give others. Its not about winning, but about the road there. Sure winning is good and goals are nice, but being able to take joy from simply improving will make your life much happier.
Basically, your just jealousy of her talent/titles interferes when she gives you good advice. Although I think its sorta hypocritical of her to claim winning isn't important when she does it a lot. But, to her its probably less important than playing well, and she's probably saying its not as good to try to make you feel like as much of an untalented musician near her.
Attempt to live the dream, but don't live FOR the dream, if that makes sense.
All in all, I think its ok to have a top goal as winning, but try to take what she said to heart since its not really wrong either.
|
No, dont listen to that girl. You need a dream, an aspiration to motivate you for what you are currently doing ( playing an instrument). If i you have no amibitions or goals to be under the spotlight, then what is going to motivate you to 'just please yourself'?
|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
TBH a dream like that really does depend a lot on luck. I've performed on Carnegie Hall and Avery Fischer Hall and it was basically due to luck.
And that was part of a choir... it would take a lot more luck to perform in a more "starring" role.
|
In terms of art, I kind of agree with her. You'll never do anything worthwhile if all you want to do is win.
As far as talent and all this in terms of competition... It's a highly controversial subject I don't want to involve myself in. I think experience (wherever it's gained) is more important than anything else in developing a skill. Talent is a word people use when they want to discourage competitors. Maybe olympic swimmers would give an arm and a leg to have arms as long as Michael Phelps, but their technique is pretty much equal, and music isn't as stupid a competition as the Olympics are.
|
it's good advice whether she is successful at her music or not, though she could be a lot more sensitive about it. she probably hasn't learned how to be less patronizing to others. lots of successful people have this problem.
if someone who has achieved even less than you but works just as hard said that you probably wouldn't resent the idea as much.
finally, even though the advice is good, it doesn't make ambition or desire to win any less valuable. that kind of drive will do much more for you in terms of raw success than anything related to "personal enjoyment" ever will.
|
I'm reasonably talented (not in the music area) and I've won a few things through a lot of hard work. Tbh winning didn't feel that great, so I think maybe that was what she was getting at saying that it's not that important to her. Dunno about saying she doesn't want to win and doesn't try, that seems like bullshit.
Winning is good though I guess; cos I'm pretty competitive the alternative - whenever I lose (often) - makes me feel like shit. Winning just feels like I've performed how I should have and in losing I am just a failure.
EDIT: Hence playing starcraft makes me feel like shit :p
Lol this is like if Boxer was talking to Yellow and saying that winning isn't all that great. It's not about winning it's about enjoying it blahblahblah. Of course winning is important from Yellow's point of view. He has seen what effects it had for Boxer, and wants to feel the (perceived) glory. And this coming from Boxer (as it comes from a winner in your story) would of course generate a bit of resentment as compared with if Frozean was telling this to Yellow.
|
I mean, it's not like winning is the sole reason I play, but just like in Idra/jaedong case, a win would mean so much more to one person than the other
|
Sure, but maybe you should just be happy with creating something beautiful. This is the complication of winning. Winning doesn't mean you created something beautiful, it just means you were the best. Sometimes being the best is meaningless.
Not in terms of fame and financial success, but in terms of self-reflection after the event, what can you really be proud of?
|
On October 15 2009 15:00 Chef wrote:
Sure, but maybe you should just be happy with creating something beautiful. This is the complication of winning. Winning doesn't mean you created something beautiful, it just means you were the best. Sometimes being the best is meaningless.
Not in terms of fame and financial success, but in terms of self-reflection after the event, what can you really be proud of?
I mean, my priorities as a musician basically go
1. entertain audience
2. create something beautiful
3. win a competition
the reason i play is #1 and #2
my goal is #3
|
intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
whatever drives you is fine, and it's different for everyone. people who say 'oh it's all about the journey and the art' are at the same time correct but clueless. everyone needs validation, everyone wants to be recognized, and i think as long as you are honest with yourself you have no reason to worry.
|
I also find doing something just for the win to be pointless. It's just not a very interesting thing to do if the reason for doing it is to win it. Sure, winning is a nice side effect, but I, like your friend, prefer the enjoyment that comes from doing it. (Not to mention I find it hard to be happy doing something just to win in it)
|
I feel that external rewards usually negatively affect progress which originally was done for intrinsic purposes.However, it seems that the 'win' you are looking for isn't summed up as being a desire for appreciation but rather a benchmark that keeps track of your goal. As long as you do not stop working just as hard once you reach that goal I do not see it as being a problem. Your friends advice is very good however she is contradicting herself by entering competitions. It is more important to play for yourself and be passionate about your endeavor but it's more important to be happy.
|
She is wrong. She has her own way to motivate herself and maybe it works for her. If winning motivates you, then go ahead, "winning isn't everything" is bullshit, you can rephrase that with "ambition isn't gonna get you to the top" (which is still dumb). Your goal is to get to the Carniege Hall, then playing for yourself isn't gonna get you anywhere close to it.
However, stop thinking about things like "luck", or "talent" or "natural ability". That's where your defect lies in. Stop thinking you are a worse musician because of some stupid shit that you weren't born with or whatever. I am pretty damn certain that unless you are mentally retarded, you can achieve anything that anyone else has achieved before. Maybe they had better parents or more money, or just better influences, ok, sucks for you. But you have your own goals, and you can best them if you have the right mindset, organization and focus. So the most important variables here are your self-respect, self-esteem and perseverance.
And dude, "money isn't happiness" is another bullshit line, for one, you don't have money so you have absolutely no idea about what money can not bring you so you can't reasonably say that line. Second, happiness is such a broad term, and I hate when people just take that as some kind of life goal. I'm happy when I play starcraft, yet I'm not so happy after I get a C on my exam for replacing study time with sc. If i studied all day, then I wouldn't be so "happy" on a every-day basis, but then I would have much better job opportunities and being able to mantain a family would make me proud of myself when I looked at the mirror. I'm _perfectly fine_ with that, even if it's not as "happy" as one would ultimately want.
Now I've gotten a bit carried away, but it's great that you're analysing your mentality, it can go long ways in changing your attitude, your habits and your overall success.
Well look at that, ilovezil just made a blog with some similar content to this post.
|
Cloud's second sentence kind of sums up my point. Don't bother arguing with her if it's clear that what she's suggesting won't work for you; similarly, don't bother trying to persuade her that your way of doing it would work better for her. It's true that different people are motivated by different things. I'm even motivated in different ways depending on what I'm doing. I play music for my own enjoyment (even when it's in front of an audience); I practice to reduce the constraints on my playing, so that I can enjoy myself even more. On the other hand, I practice Starcraft with the dream of someday (someday!) hitting C-. Keep on doing whatever makes you want to work hard!
Oh, and your Starcraft example should maybe use Savior instead of Jaedong...
|
Yeah, your starcraft analogy is just bad dude. I'm damn sure Jaedong values winning more than anything, he doesn't just play for "the love of the game".
|
Everything your friend told you is accurate. Work for yourself. You can't control how talented you are, so don't worry about it. Just be concerned with developing a product that you believe in. Look at everything as a building exercise. If you give your best and you fail, analyze why. No cop out reasons like, "That person is just more talented." The reasons or takeaway should be something like, "They had a great interpretation of that song." And then break down the elements of that and see what you want to incorporate into your own playing for next time. Really develop an understanding of your own work, and the work of your peers. I think that will help you to develop confidence in yourself, because you can see clearly where you are and why. But don't judge where you are. Just be confident that you will do better next time.
|
I couldn't disagree more with your friend. Being great at something requires a lot of effort. If you don't care about winning what motivation is there to practice?
|
On October 25 2009 03:23 omg.deus wrote:
I couldn't disagree more with your friend. Being great at something requires a lot of effort. If you don't care about winning what motivation is there to practice?
Practice to get better and play well. Most people who play as a hobby aren't trying to win competitions. They practice so that they can create music and do something they love.
On October 25 2009 02:33 Cloud wrote:
She has her own way to motivate herself and maybe it works for her. If winning motivates you, then go ahead,
Agreed. Everyone has their own motivations. It's not bad to want to win a competition. As long as there is passion for music to begin with, I see no problem with this.
I am pretty damn certain that unless you are mentally retarded, you can achieve anything that anyone else has achieved before.
This is where I disagree. Michael Phelps does have a physical advantage of a longer torso and arm span, and larger feet. Much of musical skill (in order to play pieces for example) can be learned, but saying everyone is initially at the same level is silly. Some are more expressive, others can hear the difference as the piano key is struck at its end and the finger is moved up the key (this does change the quality of sound).
|
|
|
I can understand where you're coming from with this and I'd say never give up on your dream but don't let it become the overriding be all and end all of why you're doing what you want to do.
Music is a highly expressive artform, when you compose you're putting a piece of yourself into every single note, every word, every phrase. You're putting your soul out there to be heard and for that to happen, you need people to listen and react. That's why most musicians desire to perform before an audience. They will give back everything you put into the music and that feeling encourages you to create more.
It's really difficult for someone who has great natural talent to understand how it feels for someone who has to work much harder to get to the same level. They've never known differently and although they may have the capacity to empathise with your situation, unless it's something they've experienced for themselves there's no way they can genuinely understand what it's like.
Although it's annoying trying to explain things, try not to take it personally or get frustrated with them as it's not their fault.
With regard to music especially, it's incredibly subjective. Some musicians may be technically perfect but might not appeal to listeners who prefer a more emotive playing style and there are those who compose extremely complex pieces that won't appeal as much to someone who enjoys a simple melody they can whistle on their way to work.
From your original post, it sounds very much like you want recognition for what you're doing which isn't a bad thing but you can create problems for yourself if "winning a competition" is a main part of your motivation. I think you risk limiting yourself and your music if you focus too hard on that, you'll be composing and playing with other people in mind all the time. You'll be forever trying to put yourself in the position of a listener who is judging you and trying to tailor your music to suit them instead of performing freely, as you would if no one was listening at all and maybe that's what your friend was trying to say?
Winning something and gaining recognition is a fantastic thing, it can be the justification for everything you've worked for but don't forget why you were drawn to music in the first place.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming you didn't start because you wanted to be better than someone else or to win a competition.
Anyway, I don't think you're being insecure but you could maybe merge those goals down a little so you get "Win by becoming a better player". Then you've got the motivation for winning and improving all at once instead of two seperate things to worry about.
|
On October 25 2009 04:01 Chromyne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2009 03:23 omg.deus wrote:
I couldn't disagree more with your friend. Being great at something requires a lot of effort. If you don't care about winning what motivation is there to practice? Practice to get better and play well. Most people who play as a hobby aren't trying to win competitions. They practice so that they can create music and do something they love. Show nested quote +On October 25 2009 02:33 Cloud wrote:
She has her own way to motivate herself and maybe it works for her. If winning motivates you, then go ahead,
Agreed. Everyone has their own motivations. It's not bad to want to win a competition. As long as there is passion for music to begin with, I see no problem with this. Show nested quote +
I am pretty damn certain that unless you are mentally retarded, you can achieve anything that anyone else has achieved before.
This is where I disagree. Michael Phelps does have a physical advantage of a longer torso and arm span, and larger feet. Much of musical skill (in order to play pieces for example) can be learned, but saying everyone is initially at the same level is silly. Some are more expressive, others can hear the difference as the piano key is struck at its end and the finger is moved up the key (this does change the quality of sound).
Theres a difference between the physical and the power of the brain, we know of the limitations of the former, not of the latter. Can you reasonably say that Einstein was at the peak of his mental shape before he died? And can you say that even if it wasn't his peak it was farther than the peak of other people's minds?
|
^To add to that above comment there are many theories of intelligence (Triarchic vs multiple) that can overlap while physical skills are set to individualized categories and inherently "limited" by genetics, unless you do some artificial interference like steroids, severe nutritional change, or even surgery. IQ, which reinforces on the notion of logical-mathematical + visual spatial skills, does not encompass everything, and I think even with musical skills, although some may learn faster than others, barriers are not impossible to overcome.
People with physics majors today know more about physics than Einstein did, but that does not entail they are smarter than Einstein, but rather they were given shortcuts and the educational privilege to do so. The proper practice and method, in music, I think, can present the same opportunities.
Although if you say, that they plateau at a certain high level with the best possible training, then of course I will be inclined to agree it will be surmountable, but I think its very well possible he/she can come up with innovative methods of their own on their other sides of their mental skills to compensate for the other more talented people in that specific sphere.
|
It is an easy tendency to think that talent is somemthing that one is born with and learning is something that is input into said person/student.
However there is notable contribution to talent from practice, hard work and hard thinking -> imagine someone who is physically and mentally able to, say, multitask like Bisu, he would have to 1st put in the hard work in practicing his mechanics, learn his builds, understand his MUs before being able to make full use of his "talent".
So actually your "talent" may not necessarily be absent but simply buried in a corner and waiting for the correct digger or shovel to uncover it.
Learning is another factor which talent seems to link closely with, usually in the simple relation of time taken to learn is inversely proportional to talent. I would like to use a personal example from my style of learning that I believe most people do unconsciously, which is to take every moment that you're aware of as a learning experience. (Btw, I play the violin, viola and have basic (read horrible =p) skills in piano and guitar, but not at a music majors' level imho.) and even though im pretty lazy i do finger and vibrato exercises on the bus and whatnot. Observe people's speech to learn turns of phrases, punchlines, shock and awe etc. which can be incorporated into your playing.
Well what does this have to do with your post then? The talent your friend has unlocked is probably second nature to her, and the way she dismisses it is characteristic of someone who realised that one's apparent success is not as great a deal as the raw effort taken (to unlock the intrinsic talent). When others tell me "oh you're so talented in music" usually I just smile and let it pass also because i know i havent been putting enough effort to match my OWN ideal.
If you want to achieve your goals though, i would advise (in a classic male fashion) that instead you observe or ask your friend (who has had such great success in competitions) for ways of playing and actual competition experiences, instead of thinking of other people's talents and your own insecurities, which will be magnified during competitions themselves under stress.
Hope this verbose post helped =p
|
Well I'm probably nowhere as good as you or the girl in your story, but I do have a piano performance degree from a music conservatory (RCM) so I've had my years of practice and competitions and stuff - so I feel like I'm "worthy enough" of sharing my two cents about music.
When I play at a performance, whether it's a concert hall or in front of a few mildly impressed Asian girls, my first priority is to entertain and dazzle. That includes being extra (and unnecessarily) emotion, making body motions bigger (usually a bad thing to do), being unnecessarily loud (f -> fff!!!), and stuff like that. I mean, most of the public listeners aren't well-educated in fine music, so they like to see a very visual, emotional performance. That's what I look to deliver. For these kind of performances, I can even push my repertoire slightly above my technical limits - because you can tweak by tricky passages with the pedal without audiences flinching.
I was in a few competitions before, and yeah for those it's time to deliver. Need to keep the composure, no pedal-cheating, etc. I found these to rather hectic and I hated having too much pressure on me. It also got to me that I was playing for a "certification that I'm better than the rest of the competitors" instead of giving audience a good time. You could easily guess that I didn't win a majority of those competitions - and I didn't feel particularly bad for it, either.
My point is that you have to find what's your purpose of playing. Do you play to impress, to win, to escape, to dream, to ... what? If your purpose is to win, see to yourself whether you enjoy the process (such as daily hardcore practice). Hard work may not achieve everything, but it can achieve almost everything. Good luck to you sir!
|
do the impossible and kick off with momentum.
|
The top of the chain is ALLWAYS, enjoy what you do, and love it more than anything else! If you dont think what you play is the best music piece you ever heard, then you gotta work on it. If you love and enjoy what you play yourself, then others will too. She is right. The best of the best have allways won by working on themselves improving constantly, and not thought about what others think or about winning. That is the right way to go. Good luck man!
|
Gotta have goals, and that implies a will to win.
The advice you got sounds like borderline apathy in a career.
|
She's just ignorant. Hope you achieve your dream in the future.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.sloanpartners.com/anuragharsh/personal/music/photos/AH%20Concerts/Carnegie2.jpg)
