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iheartgna
United States184 Posts
"If the evil in the world is intended by God he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good.” That being said, I'm in the same position as you with my Girlfriend but it really hasn't manifested into any problems. Just leave it alone, religion is a good thing for some. | ||
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Hieros
United States83 Posts
I see that it's an infinite regress. I just don't see why, prima facie, that's a problem. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 01 2009 04:37 Hieros wrote: Why exactly can't the chain of cause and effect run on forever? I see that it's an infinite regress. I just don't see why, prima facie, that's a problem. Well, it's a cop out. You can say it does, but that would imply that there is no "ultimate cause". For any effect, you can adduce an infinite amount of intermediate causes, but no cause (or combination of causes) that is sufficient on its own. That is the same thing as saying that nothing has a true cause. | ||
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
Best advice I can give you is to stop trying to convince her she's wrong, chances are she'll vehemently deny even if she realizes she is. | ||
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Track
United States217 Posts
You present an extremely intriguing point. If one believes in causation, the infinite regress seems to be as interminable as if one believes in the Christian God. I hesitate, though, to postulate the existence of a supreme being in order to escape this, as that's not really good science. But it does present a very good "excuse" to believe in Christianity. I'm not really sure how to address your argument at all, really. Are you suggesting that there is no real process for decision making that is deterministic? It's difficult for me to even imagine such a concept, if truth be told. Could you elaborate a bit more for my own curiosity? | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
Faith and ones own beliefs should not be argued over. Relationships are about compromises. Would she still be willing to be with you even if you do not accept her God as your own? Would you be willing to get married with her in a church even if logically it does not make sense to you? | ||
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Diggity
United States806 Posts
though honestly I dont really get into religious debates anymore. People will believe what they've always believed and almost never change (at least from a single conversation). I think it depends on the goal of religious debate or I guess discussion in general. Is the purpose of discussion to gain a deeper understanding of an opposite point of view while expressing your own? Or is the purpose of a discussion to simply "win" by convincing people of your own point of view? If I were to accept, as you say, that it's "all part of his plan", then I'd have to come to terms with the fact that God DOES want man to suffer, that God DOES want man to behave in an evil fashion, and that he is happy with all the strife and unhappiness and despair that occurs on Earth, since he directly caused it by causation. Can we call that creature God that behaves in such a manner? Certainly not a benevolent one, anyway. Railxp, I wish it were that easy, honestly. But we simply can't agree to disagree on this point. You are making two assumptions here: 1) that all suffering is evil and 2) men behaving in an evil fashion is irreconcilably evil 3) we have the equivalent moral perspective to God in order to judge actions with eternal consequences. 1) is a very Buddhist thought and I really dont have any comments on it. but 2) There is a religious conception that God is capable of redeeming evil for good. There are arguments that this is the central focus of New Testament teaching. Some biblical backing on the thought: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes 3:11&version=NIV There also seems to be some kicking around of the idea that God created evil. Not sure why religious people argue against this since the bible straight up states it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=proverbs 16:4&version=NASB That being said, I don't think its logical to say that God created evil therefore God is evil or therefore God is not good. 3) I am not going to elaborate on this point because I feel like its a weak and unsatisfying argument. But I will say the entire book of Job centers around the concept of taking God to public trial. Part of the poetic conception is that when you put God on trial, you put yourself on trial. Its clear to say that given any conception of an "all powerful" god, good evil or neutral, a mortal man does not possibly have the moral or mental capacity to judge its actions. Even assuming we did have the moral capacity I am not sure we would have the mental capacity to view the implications of even simple actions in view of the eternal flow of time. Replying to the original post: I find your initial argument of a "forced decision" to be very illogical. A choice of any limited option is still a choice and therefore evidence of free will. If you pull back your perspective a bit and view the world we live in as a conglomeration of the laws of physics and the infinite variables bouncing around in it, we are "forced" to make every decision in our day to day lives. Breath or not breath. Eat or not eat. Play starcraft or not. This is a far cry from a violation of free will. Additionally I dont think we can argue how an "all powerful god" sees or interacts with the future given that we are pinned to a solid cause and effect time line. To try to stab at my first comment "understanding the opposite point of view", I think your frustration is with the concept of being confronted with choices of good and evil. You would rather have God either allow a 3rd neutral option (a very zen existence I guess) or just not be confronted with such choices at all. I don't think there is a logic proof for the argument, but I do believe that free will is a requirement for real love. In other words for love to exist, free will must exist and I would then say that evil must therefore be capable of existing. I am not saying that evil is the opposite of love automatically, but I will say that the capacity for the conditions of evil are the same as the conditions for the capacity of love. That being said, it is my opinion that the risk of evil is worth potential benefit of love. In my opinion a lot of basic human interaction flows from this concept as well. You date your girlfriend at risk that she will reject you for who you are in hopes that she might truly accept you for who you are. Erg bad sentence ending. Whatever. | ||
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Weaponx3
Canada232 Posts
God is everything we are not ,but to have a relationship with God it is through jesus God reconciled the world and you are no longer of this world.. this world is not Gods its Satans and Satan gained when sin was first intruduced via Eve in the Garden she was tempted by him and fell, this just goes to show God is the only with mistakes and sin he made provisions however by sending his son because he so loved the world. to kno and have this relationship you must do something different from human nature and its to not put yourself as the most important thing and by seeking godly things you will love people because that is what God loves the most and whats people to be with him. Einstein said it best when he said darkness does not exist it is a word we use when there is no light, because light can be a quantity but darkness cant , evil is that when God is not present. Also God will give u want u want he will promise what u need, and what we should ask of him is more of his presence and thoughts in our lives. The evil in this world is just but a sympton of our disobiedience to God. The other realization is that we all say this person is that and this person is this, the truth of the matter is we are all sinners and have fallen short of the Glory of God. | ||
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Hieros
United States83 Posts
On September 01 2009 04:41 qrs wrote: Well, it's a cop out. You can say it does, but that would imply that there is no "ultimate cause". For any effect, you can adduce an infinite amount of intermediate causes, but no cause (or combination of causes) that is sufficient on its own. That is the same thing as saying that nothing has a true cause. Right and my point is what's wrong with saying that there is no "ultimate cause", or that there are no "true causes"? And why should we think that there is something "sufficient on its own"? You might say it's a cop out, but for me the notion of a ultimate cause sounds like a Russell's teapot. | ||
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strongwind
United States862 Posts
Ask yourself, are you really searching for an answer? If so, I would suggest posting your question on a forum geared more towards Christian apologetics, rather than a starcraft forum. Or you could do a quick google search to find countless books written on this subject. There really are tremendous amounts of resources that can help you find the answer you are looking for. edit: I'll leave the first google result I got when I typed in "how can god allow evil to exist" http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/evil.html just for some reference. There are many, many more resources where that came from. | ||
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Track
United States217 Posts
Diggity, that's a very interesting point. "I find your initial argument of a "forced decision" to be very illogical. A choice of any limited option is still a choice and therefore evidence of free will." I would reply that we have merely the illusion of choice, but my point wasn't that we have no choice in a pragmatic sense, only that given those Christian premises, we cannot be held responsible for those choices, given that God is directly, through the shaping of our mind, causing us to make them. I concur with you in that we can't possibly hope to understand the machinations of a being who operates on a completely different scale than we do, we have no frame of reference and therefore cannot hope to morally hold God accountable. My frustration isn't so much that I want the choice to be made for me, but rather that I feel as though God cannot hold me accountable for making that choice when he is directly causing me to make it. Ie, if someone were to force you to sign a confession, how could they then be angry at you for signing the confession? I concur with your assertion that free will is necessary for love, and on the practical level I think you're completely right. "That being said, I don't think its logical to say that God created evil therefore God is evil or therefore God is not good. " If God is omnipotent, he should be able to create a universe where free will exists but evil does not. That's the crux of my argument. | ||
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mg
88 Posts
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Mokinono
United States19 Posts
Second I'm a philosopher, so I believe that the truth is one thing but is also in exhaustible, meaning that no one can say something like "God is good" and understand either the good in relation to God, nor vise versa, nor God alone because God is beyond our ability to comprehend. This argument you bring up is, I think, due to a miss understanding of God and bad theology. Yes everything is dependent on God, but only from our perspective. From my perspective at my computer, my world is small and insignificant. I know that writing this will do just about nothing for anyone. I don't know you and you don't know me. So perception is very important. First premise is true, but only in a certain way. God is omniscient and omnipotent, but he does not know the world like we do. He is omnipotent only because He can do all that He can do. It doesn't mean He can do absurd things like kill Himself. He knows everything because He knows Himself, and He is the source of all this. He doesn't know things like we do--by our senses. Rather He has an abstract knowledge of it. premise 2 is right...because God is the root of all things, the Eternal First. Premise 3 is wrong. God Can't make mistakes because God is Good. If God is not all good, then there must be a greater Good and if that is the case He is not God, but a Demi-God or a lesser God. Again God's knows the future, but not as the future. He knows time as "is", not as "once was" or "will be" This is necessarily so because he God lives in time, then he must be subject to change (time=measurement of change) and that means he must be changing... In Short, God knows us through Himself and not through looking at us...THOUGH from our point of view God looks at us. (something similar is, Is the Earth the center of the universe, or is the Sun. When I am on the Earth, being ignorant I might say either.) Premise 4 true, there are things that influence our thought pattern. Upbringing, culture, people we hang out with, rights and wrongs done to us and things we have done...the list goes on. So this is extremely hard to figure out. When all is said and done, though. You do have free will. No one, not even God can make you do anything. (God can't because taking free will away is an evil, if God is Good he can't do that, if God is evil then he's not god) However there are times when emotions can seem to take away free will...Alcohol and drugs can take away free will, but you first have to get them into your system. Premise 5, our thought process comes from God in a very remote way. But look, God can't make you think anything. If He could, why would have allowed so many people not being Catholic--if Catholicism is the true religion...God loves us, and love demands freedom. No freedom. No Love. You can ask yourself the same question: who loves me? I mean truly? When someone is raped--is that not the same bodily function as marital sex. But in one case it is evil and the other it is good? It is nearly the same act! (two parties, BOTH have to freely give of their freedom) Premise 6, Yeah God knows everything. God knows that I'm here in my room typing--but is that my perception of God, or God's perception of me? That I don't know. Look, don't you know your friends? Can't you say that if you are going to a dance party, that you will have a good time? What does that mean? Did you suddenly become God because you foreknew something? God sets variables is a remote way, God doesn't control people. He lets them choose whatever. God inspires good in everyone, but they still have to choose it. For example, Take starcraft, everything is already done--there are no more units (unless you use map settings), you can only do so many things...But does that mean you didn't have a choice? You are born into the world because of parents, so you do have set circumstances. This world and its inhabitants work in a certain way. Yes, God knows all that. Some have said God knows all possible actions and possible worlds. In short, God knows, but doesn't control. Premise 7, If God is the end result of our sin, then it is our fault? Yet today in the world, everyone knows its our fault when we do wrong. Set me say this, I'm playing a Game of starcraft, I pause it and left you take over. You punch the screen and smash the computer...is that my fault or yours? You can't say it was God's fault, you choose to do it, or you were on drugs (out of your mind). Some of the ideas are taken from Aquinas' work, Contra Gentiles God loves you. ~Mokinono | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
* If you just want to "have fun messing around" stop wasting your time and find an easier target; * If you think you might be interested in her long term with marriage in mind, you should decide whether you can live with her as she is. Don't argue or discuss religion. Join her in church every now and then, to test it out. Maybe you can't stand it, or maybe its not too bad. Keep in mind, she is likely not a whore and could be a good mother with strong values. Edit: mg beat me to it :-) | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
On September 01 2009 04:31 Track wrote: Navane, could you elaborate? Are you simply proposing that God is inherently paradoxical and that as such these questions simply do not have answers? Yes. If not; who created god? A question I'm more interested is: why did god create the world? | ||
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nomsayin
United States124 Posts
You're trying to apply logic and reason to religion, which calls for faith. Religious faith calls for you to believe without, or in spite of evidence. Faith is the opposite of logic in reason. They do not work together by definition, one must be surrendered to the other. You must choose whether you prefer using your mind and your intellect, the one thing that separates us from everything on earth, or you can submit to authority and be a mindless drone. Also, I think it's very important to know what we're talking about when we discuss "free will". I don't see it as any more than an abstract idea. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On September 01 2009 05:23 nomsayin wrote: I haven't read all the other posts, but I'm going to tell you what I think. You're trying to apply logic and reason to religion, which calls for faith. Religious faith calls for you to believe without, or in spite of evidence. Faith is the opposite of logic in reason. They do not work together by definition, one must be surrendered to the other. You must choose whether you prefer using your mind and your intellect, the one thing that separates us from everything on earth, or you can submit to authority and be a mindless drone. Damn simpleton drones and their smug belief in their superiority! + Show Spoiler + Sorry, I liked the first part of your post but could not resist the 2nd. | ||
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nomsayin
United States124 Posts
On September 01 2009 05:27 citi.zen wrote: Damn simpleton drones and their smug belief in their superiority! + Show Spoiler + Sorry, I liked the first part of your post but could not resist the 2nd. I don't understand the point you are trying to make. | ||
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Fallen_arK
United States91 Posts
but rather than dwell upon that, You said in your post that you SHOULD break up with her, but you won't. That you love her. Explain THAT to me, an illogical act in its own, and I will explain what you ask for. And if you list simple reasons such as "She's pretty, beautiful and wonderful to me and simply the best person alive" then.... I have no words for you. | ||
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