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On September 01 2009 10:20 beetlelisk wrote:
That's why I wonder what is the point of religion "debates" - why does anyone need to prove other humans that find religion soothing they are wrong? What are they supposed to find in replacement IF they are wrong?
Because religion, and belief in ideas without, or in despite of evidence is dangerous. This is clearly evident in the cases of religious fundamentalism, and still true, but less obvious with religious moderates. If anyone believes that they will be rewarded in the afterlife by 72 virgins for committing mass murder of the innocent, it is clearly dangerous.
Why do you despise religion to that extent (leaving gf because she believes? if you are together she can't be that bad or I wonder how it happened you are together)? Has something unpleasant happened to you in your life that made your beliefs like that? Was is something more than just crazy old hag from you family screaming about going to church every Sunday or something?
There are many religious people that I have relationships which I am glad to have. However, I can only reach a certain level of fulfillment from these relationships, as we, at some point, can no longer discuss matters in terms of reason and logic. I value my intellect above all else, and to connect with someone who denies reason on the deepest levels is impossible to me. Maybe he has reached a stage where he is seeking fulfillment in his relationship that cannot be satisfied by her due to her religion.
Focus on this instead. Maybe you need religion not to think about something else, maybe you have memories that made you think there is no god because why would your life look like that?
For example it's hard to imagine for me rich kid that says god is bad because all evil comes from him.
I'm not certain that I understand what you are saying, but some form of comfort is not justification for the belief in the irrational.
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On September 01 2009 05:23 nomsayin wrote:
I haven't read all the other posts, but I'm going to tell you what I think.
You're trying to apply logic and reason to religion, which calls for faith. Religious faith calls for you to believe without, or in spite of evidence. Faith is the opposite of logic in reason. They do not work together by definition, one must be surrendered to the other. You must choose whether you prefer using your mind and your intellect, the one thing that separates us from everything on earth, or you can submit to authority and be a mindless drone.
Also, I think it's very important to know what we're talking about when we discuss "free will". I don't see it as any more than an abstract idea.
Well said. Logic and religion are incompatible.
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First of all, i didnt read all, i just saw the clock and need to do something, i was like in the half of the thread.
Second, i am an atheist, but for the pure logic i will tell you something. You need axioms to use formal logic. Try to find your axioms and then deduce everything on them. There is plenty of information about the set of axioms for every single thread in christianism. They diverge due axiom difference. Do your research, then reform your idea.
And third, i have been three times (including my current relationship) with very religious girls. The first was a catecumen girl (catholic aphostolic roman congregation) the second a catholic addept, in fact his brother was a priest, and now with a girl from a jehova withness family that isnt actually her religion, but has the limited education that such religion implies (she has learned more about life and philosophy in the last year with me than in her whole life before).
i wanna say too that your long explanation remembered me Isaac Asimov`s robots in their way to decide by positronic potentials...
edit: Forgot to mention. Actually the new testament, the christ story is very logical. It was written by roman people who knew the greek phylosophy. So you actually can make a logical test on it. Just a matter of axioms. And by this i mean that the free will discussion had occur many times in the history and many theologhist have pure logical analisys that actually make sense... if you believe in the axioms
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Christianity (and religion in general) isn't something that can be defended by logic, although people certainly try. You can either believe in it, idiosyncrasies, contradictions, logical fallacies, and all or you do not.
I've found from my own personal experiences with very religious people that a certain amount of doublethink is almost required to reconcile certain religious ideas with our observed reality. On the one hand, they know some of the foundations of Christianity isn't really possible (immaculate conception, miracles, etc.), but they are able to make themselves believe regardless. It isn't something I can do personally, and I do not see such an ability as a positive asset.
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On September 01 2009 12:00 nomsayin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 10:20 beetlelisk wrote:
That's why I wonder what is the point of religion "debates" - why does anyone need to prove other humans that find religion soothing they are wrong? What are they supposed to find in replacement IF they are wrong? Because religion, and belief in ideas without, or in despite of evidence is dangerous. This is clearly evident in the cases of religious fundamentalism, and still true, but less obvious with religious moderates. If anyone believes that they will be rewarded in the afterlife by 72 virgins for committing mass murder of the innocent, it is clearly dangerous.
Yeah but we are talking about Christian girl not Islam terrorists here 
Their case is much more complicated but still what can they replace their eliefs with ?
Show nested quote +Why do you despise religion to that extent (leaving gf because she believes? if you are together she can't be that bad or I wonder how it happened you are together)? Has something unpleasant happened to you in your life that made your beliefs like that? Was is something more than just crazy old hag from you family screaming about going to church every Sunday or something? There are many religious people that I have relationships which I am glad to have. However, I can only reach a certain level of fulfillment from these relationships, as we, at some point, can no longer discuss matters in terms of reason and logic. I value my intellect above all else, and to connect with someone who denies reason on the deepest levels is impossible to me.
Would you sacrifice your point of view to be able to see smile of the one you love more often?
Maybe he has reached a stage where he is seeking fulfillment in his relationship that cannot be satisfied by her due to her religion.
OK but in what way exactly? Is it just things they talk about daily or she's trying to "convert" him?
Show nested quote +Focus on this instead. Maybe you need religion not to think about something else, maybe you have memories that made you think there is no god because why would your life look like that?
For example it's hard to imagine for me rich kid that says god is bad because all evil comes from him. I'm not certain that I understand what you are saying, but some form of comfort is not justification for the belief in the irrational.
I'm saying that what I understood is he said in OP existence of god denies free will and ultimately he concluded there is nothing and no one else to blame for all the misfortune and evil.
I don't think this belief came from nowhere so, in my opinion, he has problems with his past he should focus on instead of religion and he can do it with people he love like her.
AFAIK  P Christianity is religion about love. Who cares if love is irrational as long as it doesn't change to some kind of madness?
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Christianity is as much a religion about love as Islam is a religion about peace.
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On September 02 2009 01:48 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 12:00 nomsayin wrote:On September 01 2009 10:20 beetlelisk wrote:
That's why I wonder what is the point of religion "debates" - why does anyone need to prove other humans that find religion soothing they are wrong? What are they supposed to find in replacement IF they are wrong? Because religion, and belief in ideas without, or in despite of evidence is dangerous. This is clearly evident in the cases of religious fundamentalism, and still true, but less obvious with religious moderates. If anyone believes that they will be rewarded in the afterlife by 72 virgins for committing mass murder of the innocent, it is clearly dangerous. Yeah but we are talking about Christian girl not Islam terrorists here Their case is much more complicated but still what can they replace their eliefs with ?
Yes I realize that, and I don't believe her religious beliefs to be nearly as dangerous as some others, but still dangerous. I suggest they replace their beliefs with those supported by facts.
Show nested quote +Why do you despise religion to that extent (leaving gf because she believes? if you are together she can't be that bad or I wonder how it happened you are together)? Has something unpleasant happened to you in your life that made your beliefs like that? Was is something more than just crazy old hag from you family screaming about going to church every Sunday or something? There are many religious people that I have relationships which I am glad to have. However, I can only reach a certain level of fulfillment from these relationships, as we, at some point, can no longer discuss matters in terms of reason and logic. I value my intellect above all else, and to connect with someone who denies reason on the deepest levels is impossible to me. Would you sacrifice your point of view to be able to see smile of the one you love more often?
I am not one to ever sacrifice myself for the good of anyone else. Any so called sacrifice I make, I expect to benefit me overall in the long run. I can imagine theoretical possibilities where I could "sacrafice" my point of views for the happiness of someone else. However, this would in no way change my beliefs. Any sacrifice of belief would only taint the love and destroy it's meaning. If I lied about my beliefs, they would be loving the lie that I am, not who I truly am.
Show nested quote +Maybe he has reached a stage where he is seeking fulfillment in his relationship that cannot be satisfied by her due to her religion. OK but in what way exactly? Is it just things they talk about daily or she's trying to "convert" him?
I do not know his situation. You would have to ask him. I was speculating based on my own experience and of those around me.
Show nested quote +Focus on this instead. Maybe you need religion not to think about something else, maybe you have memories that made you think there is no god because why would your life look like that?
For example it's hard to imagine for me rich kid that says god is bad because all evil comes from him. I'm not certain that I understand what you are saying, but some form of comfort is not justification for the belief in the irrational. I'm saying that what I understood is he said in OP existence of god denies free will and ultimately he concluded there is nothing and no one else to blame for all the misfortune and evil. I don't think this belief came from nowhere so, in my opinion, he has problems with his past he should focus on instead of religion and he can do it with people he love like her. AFAIK P Christianity is religion about love. Who cares if love is irrational as long as it doesn't change to some kind of madness?
Seems like a radical conclusion. I think he should do whatever is in his best interest. I quote the above poster.
On September 02 2009 01:53 Draconizard wrote:
Christianity is as much a religion about love as Islam is a religion about peace.
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have you talked to your gf? what has she said?
it's weird that i'm in the exact same situation haha
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On September 02 2009 01:53 Draconizard wrote:
Christianity is as much a religion about love as Islam is a religion about peace.
Why? I couldn't agree less with a pastor that has burned Harry Potter books along with Marilyn Mason CDs but he's just a blind, misleaded?, one, human among many.
Fact that some people twist Chrystanity and try to twist other people's beliefs about it doesn't mean it's bad religion itself imo?
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You wrote: “I'm currently a mixture between a Deist and a Pantheist, and honestly I see no reason to believe Christianity is *the* true religion when there are countless out there with as much claim to truth.”
It is good that you are applying logic to determine which religion, if any, that is right.
In my blog (bloganders.blogspot.com; see left menu) I do prove the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose is for mankind.
You wrote:
“2. Nothing can existent independent of God.
4. There is a thought process that guides our decision making.
5. Given premise 2, our thought process comes inevitably from God.” “
Can you please fully expand on your definition of premise number 2. How did you arrive to that premise?
As I said I do quote a proof in the above website that proves an Intelligent and Perfect Creator. It is impossible for any imperfectness to co-mingle with that Perfect Creator – that would render Him imperfect. It can be deduced from the above proof that there are plenty of humans who are in a state of imperfectness. Since it is impossible for the Perfect Creator to get imperfect, this implies that those people are not connected to the Perfect Creator. Their thought process is completely free from any direct intervention by the Creator.
Anders Branderud
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OP:
On September 01 2009 03:10 Track wrote:
A little introduction.. I'm currently in a relationship with a girl of distinctly Christian beliefs. blah blah blah...
I appreciate any and all input on the subject.
Pics pls, then we can all agree on a solution to this problem.
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On September 06 2009 20:44 Anders Branderud wrote:
You wrote: “I'm currently a mixture between a Deist and a Pantheist, and honestly I see no reason to believe Christianity is *the* true religion when there are countless out there with as much claim to truth.”
It is good that you are applying logic to determine which religion, if any, that is right.
In my blog (bloganders.blogspot.com; see left menu) I do prove the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose is for mankind.
You wrote:
“2. Nothing can existent independent of God.
4. There is a thought process that guides our decision making.
5. Given premise 2, our thought process comes inevitably from God.” “
Can you please fully expand on your definition of premise number 2. How did you arrive to that premise?
As I said I do quote a proof in the above website that proves an Intelligent and Perfect Creator. It is impossible for any imperfectness to co-mingle with that Perfect Creator – that would render Him imperfect. It can be deduced from the above proof that there are plenty of humans who are in a state of imperfectness. Since it is impossible for the Perfect Creator to get imperfect, this implies that those people are not connected to the Perfect Creator. Their thought process is completely free from any direct intervention by the Creator.
Anders Branderud
Don't tell me you sought this site out for the sole purpose of promoting your blog.
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EPT
