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Kevin Durant
Not playing in the NBA Finals has been the best thing to happen to Kevin Durant’s reputation. The reigning two-time Finals MVP has not received much credit for his accomplishments in Golden State because he joined a team who had won a title without him. That lack of praise seemed valid when the Warriors closed out the Rockets and swept the Blazers while he was out with a calf strain. It no longer does after four games against the Raptors, who are up 3-1 heading into Game 5 on Monday. Toronto has exposed the lack of firepower in Golden State’s supporting cast. Steph Curry and Klay Thompson scored 55 points on 20-for-40 shooting in their loss in Game 4 on Friday. Their star backcourt did its part; the problem was their other eight players scored only 37 points on 15-for-38 shooting (39.4 percent). None of his possible destinations have the same history of success as Golden State, or another superstar as willing to share the spotlight as Curry. The Warriors always knew they needed Durant. Now everyone else realizes it, too. That may be enough for him to stay. TR
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On June 10 2019 12:59 Twinkle Toes wrote: The core issue here is determining the weaker move. or, to restate it in more specific and measurable terms, which player resorted to the easier way out (compared to both each others career and their predicament at that time).
Item 1a: I'll start by addressing your (and every "snek" commenters) main contention: the 73-win Warriors. - Didn't this 73-win Warriors team almost lose to OKC in the WCF, overcoming a 1-3 deficit? Yes. Worth pointing out that they wouldnt have to worry about OKC for the next season. - Didn't this 73-win Warriors team lose players to injury and suspension, underhanding them in the finals? Yes - Didn't this 73-win Warriors team eventually lost to the Cavs? Yes
Item 1b: - Wasn't Lebron then considered the best player in the NBA? Yes, unless you really like Kobe I guess - Aren't Bosh and Wade then considered top 5 players in the NBA? No, Bosh wasn't a top 5 player (but Wade was) - Aren't all three in the prime of their careers, and leaders of their own respective teams? Yes - Wasn't it then considered unprecedented (therefore anomalous) for three prime players to gang together and tilt the odds astronomically in their favor (see clutZ point about "not 1, not 2")? Yes, although they weren't the first super team
Let's add another dimension to this.
Item 2a: - Is the Warriors superteam formed by good team management and player development? Yes - Is the Warriors superteam composed of superstars in their prime joining forces to unbalance the league? Yes (I assume you mean the Warriors after KD joined)
Item 2b: - Is the Cavs superteam formed by good team management and player development? Yes - Is the Cavs superteam composed of superstars in their prime joining forces to unbalance the league? Yes, but to a way smaller extend than the warriors team
Preliminary conclusion. The point of Items 1a/1b is to assess the concept of "superteam". For sure the Warriors got the most regular season wins record in the NBA, but them losing in the finals proved that they were not the best team. Although regular season wins is a strong indication of strength, the playoffs are a different monster entirely (ask all those 60+ wins East team that Lebron massacred on his way to 8 straight finals appearance). Lebron's Miami, on the other hand, was created precisely to dominate the league and win championships. Again re: clutZ, people brush it off in jest now, but the universal opnion in 2011 was that Miami was gonna be the Bulls of the 2010s. That is until Lebron got exposed by (2011 Mavs and Spurs), and got derailed by the emerging Warriors. In short, Lebron and Miami was unequivocally the best team with the best talents in the NBA so were the KD Warriors but massively underperformed way beyond their available talent and expectation.
The point of Items 2a/2b is to characterize the nature of "superteam". To sharply emphasize this point, imagine Jordan calling up Barkley and Olajuwon in the early 90s, or Kobe asking TMac and Duncan to join him post-Shaq Lakers. IMPOSSIBLE. Those players wanted to kill each other competitively. They'd rather die than be each others teammates on the way to a guaranteed ring.
Now on to the joining. Imagine yourself being Durant, what would you do offseason 2016? Stay with Westbrook and be in playoffs limbo forever? Join the Hornets? Suns? Nets? We all agree that he, or anyone else in that position, should make the best possible move. And we cannot fault Durant that the NBA income structure at the time, coupled with GSW organization management, made GSW the best decision for him.
Lebron's forming a superteam on the other hand - an in-his-prime superstar who people were considering a GOAT over MJ asking other in-their-prime superstars to join him for a sure chance at championship is unprecedented and anomalous (understandable only in the small context that he is desperate to live up to his Chosen One image and win a ring).
I think the distinction you try to draw between KD and Lebron doesn't hold up. Both had to make a decision and both decided to take the one that would give them the best chances to win a ring. But if we asked who was on a better team before joining/forming a superteam and who had an easier path to a ring after that, the answer is KD
Conclusion: Both moves are equally weak moves, but understandable in the context of legacy and winning a championship for the players concerned. However, IF anyone should insist the one move is weaker than the other, then Lebron's forming a superteam is weaker than Durant's joining a superteam based on the reasons comprehensively given above. I added some remarks in bold. In the first paragraph under "Preliminary conclusion", you compare the Warriors without KD to the Heat with Lebron. That is a faulty comparison in this context. You should either compare the Warriors with KD to the Heat with Lebron or the Warriors without KD to the Heat without Lebron. So lets do that: It was already pointed out the Warriors with KD are bigger favorited that the big 3 Heat by Vegas odds. The KD Warriors also performed way better that Lebrons Miami, having a flawless finals record, crushing the Cavs. In conclusion, the KD Warriors are more of a dominating force than the big 3 Heat, making the path to a ring easier for KD than for Lebron. Now, compare the Warriors without KD to the Heat without Lebron. The Warriors made two consecutive finals, winning one of them and had the best regular season record of all time, being lead by two times MVP Curry. The Heat without Lebron missed the playoffs in 2015 and got boundced in the semis in 2016.
So here is my first and most important point that you didn't properly adress: KD joined a way better team and had subsequently an easier path to the championship.
In the second paragraph, you take about the nature of a superteam and the distinction between joining and forming a superteam, so I will add my thoughts here too. Joining a superteam like the 2016 Warriors is less of a risk than forming a superteam. In the formation of a superteam like the Heat, many things can go wrong (see Lakers with Nash and Dwight), you have to be concered about the chemistry and force the three superstars to adjust to each others game. Same is true with KD joining the Warriors, but to a far lesser extend. You already have a working team and just need to incorporate one more player.
So, my second point: Forming a superteam is a riskier move than joining one, making the latter a weaker/easier move.
Last but not least, the fact that KD joined the team that he narrowly lost to (blowing a 3-1 lead) and what that means for the parity in the league. KD joining the Warriors did not only push them over the top in terms of pure skill, but it also eliminated the biggest threat to the Warriors in the west (but forming the Heat didnt impact the Celtics.) It also shows that OKC with KD had a legitimitate shot at the title, so I don't think its fair to say that KD would surely been stuck in the playoff limbo forever.
So, my third and last point: Joing a team you narrowly lost too and eliminating the second biggest threat to that team at the same time is a weaker move than forming a new team with other stars.
In conclusion, the only arguments (as far as I understand. If I failed to grasp understand one of your arguments, let me know) that support your position are: - 2010 Lebron was a better player than 2016 KD - Lebrons decision was unprecedented - KD had fewer options that Lebron
These are all fair arguments, but I think they pale in comparision to the ones I brought up.
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They should just move the GOAT conversation to who carries the worst teams to championships. Than all these guys wanting to be the GOAT will want to join the Knicks!
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In the first paragraph under "Preliminary conclusion", you compare the Warriors without KD to the Heat with Lebron. That is a faulty comparison in this context. You should either compare the Warriors with KD to the Heat with Lebron or the Warriors without KD to the Heat without Lebron... THIS is the faulty logic. Remember, the contention is that these two teams while sharing the general label of "superteams" are constructed in opposite manners. There is no "Heat team without Lebron" so to speak because Lebron personally deliberately constructed that team. This is the fatal logical flaw of those who argue that "What happens to Miami without Lebron!? Such a teams does not exist for any comparison purposes because the superteam debate starts with Lebron forming the Miami superteam.
So here is my first and most important point that you didn't properly adress: KD joined a way better team and had subsequently an easier path to the championship.
See my reply to BlackJack. tldr; the 73-win, 400+ 3pt fgm season by Curry was illusory, and hid all the little but exploitable flaws with the team (as exploited successfully by 2016 Cavs, 2016 OKC, 2017 Rockets, and 2019 Toronto). KD plugged all those holes.
Joining a superteam like the 2016 Warriors is less of a risk than forming a superteam. In the formation of a superteam like the Heat, many things can go wrong (see Lakers with Nash and Dwight),
This is revisionist and denialist at best. There is a reason why there was nation-wide Lebron jersey burning in 2011. The universal (not even majority, but 99% public opinion) opinion at that time was that the Heat was gonna win more than 6 consecutive rings. This is why Dirk became a legend and a true hero of basketball fans and players the world over despite his wonky basketball skills.
Re Nash and Dwight, I have to hazard that you are on the very young side? I know this not from rumors or internet research, but because I lived the early 2010s as a die-hard Kobe fan. I know those years like the palm of my hand. Nash and Dwight were injured then, there was precious little expectation until they are proven to be healthy, which never happened. Add Dwights clownish stupidity and thats a bomb.
you have to be concered about the chemistry and force the three superstars to adjust to each others game. Same is true with KD joining the Warriors, but to a far lesser extend. You already have a working team and just need to incorporate one more player.
Again, see the illusory 73-win team. Additionaly hypothetical, insert Jordan to the formerly #1 1997 Pacers team, or form a team with Jordan, Hakeem, Payton, which one is stronger?
Last but not least, the fact that KD joined the team that he narrowly lost to (blowing a 3-1 lead) and what that means for the parity in the league. KD joining the Warriors did not only push them over the top in terms of pure skill, but it also eliminated the biggest threat to the Warriors in the west (but forming the Heat didnt impact the Celtics.) It also shows that OKC with KD had a legitimitate shot at the title, so I don't think its fair to say that KD would surely been stuck in the playoff limbo forever.
In conclusion, the only arguments (as far as I understand. If I failed to grasp understand one of your arguments, let me know) that support your position are: - 2010 Lebron was a better player than 2016 KD TRUE - Lebrons decision was unprecedented AND ANOMALOUS. It was a break from the tradition of superstars being competitive against rivals. It was the absolute wuss move - KD had fewer options that Lebron I dont know where this is coming from, but Lebron/Miami team as it was built was on paper and in practice the more talented and promising team than the Warriors.
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ESPN has it that Durrant will play tonight without limitations. I guess we will see how he is. I still think the Raps close out tonight.
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On June 10 2019 21:45 Twinkle Toes wrote: @BlackJack, your raising a different argument. You are practically saying this: Las Vegas preseason odds determine who the best team is. This is a bad take.
I really want to focus on Paljas point because that is the core issue, but let me briefly address your point here. Two things:
1. Curry's supernova 2014-2016 once-in-a-lifetime offensive performance is so awe-inspiring that it's easy to miscalculate the real strength of the team. No doubt this is a great team, but it is a product of Curry's superb performance paired with his good-to-very-good teammates overperforming (Green, Iggy, Thompson) who have the correct ego and personality that makes the team all-time great. But that greatness is more prominent in the regular season that in the playoffs when teams can construct specific counters against them. They shocked and awed the league in 2015, but their flaws were (and are being) exposed by good counter-planning, such as 2016 OKC, 2016 Cavs, 2017 Houston, 2019 Houston, and this year's Toronto. How? first, Curry is a defensive liability against playoffs elite team offense. His gambles and reach ins may convert to a steal of a deflection against Lillard, or Utah or Clippers, but against elite offensive teams with good passers and readers like Kawhi, Lebron, Harden, etc, he always gets displaced, leaving his man for open shots. He also wilts against heavy-handed bruising defense (see Lebron, Thompson, Dellavedova practically elbowing and wrestling him on screens and pins in the 2016 finals). This resulted in crucial mistakes like him missing rotations on defense, making amateur behind the back no look passes on life-and-death possessions, avoiding the usual elevator and blocking Kaly's exit, much to Klay's dismay many times in 2016 game 7. This year, see how FVV, Lowry, and Kawhi feasts on his bad instincts.. His only redemption is that Iggy is a beta superstar, Klay is volatile, and Draymond is a defensive genius. KD's arrival in god-sent for Curry and his legacy. With how hungry Lebron is in the last couple of years, and how improved SAS and HOU were last season, Curry would have been exposed much earlier, as he is in this year's finals, that he alone cannot carry this team. I hesitate to say this but he is what we may consider a system-great player. His submission to KD since 2016 is not an accident. The 73-win season was an illusion, and hid the holes of the team. KD is NBA's and GSW's best players and plugged all these holes. This is being made objectively undeniably clear this series.
2. Lebron paved the way for KD. If Lebron didnt make that original bitch move first, KD, as well as other superstars (Wall, AD, PG, Kawhi) would all hesitate to be seen as team/teammate-selecting divas publicly (privately its another matter).
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think the Vegas favorite is the waaaay better metric for "best team" than the metric of whichever team won the last championship is the best team.
I'm just kind of confused as to why you brought up the fact that the Warriors lost players to injuries/suspension in the 2016 Finals. If it's your contention that they weren't the best team before KD joined them then wouldn't the fact that they probably only lost the Finals because of injuries/suspension hurt your argument?
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I'm gonna pull an all nighter for this.
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@JC Toronto is a beautiful city! I used to think it was like Detroit or some wilder New Orleans, but wow!
@BlackJack Injuries are part of the game, This late in the season, players are always injured one way or the other. But injuries are not the main reason GSW lost the championship. Green played in Games 6 and 7. The Warriors core was complete by then. Even if we take out the injury factor, 2016 Cavs gameplanned against the Warriors perfectly, which is why they won. Like I said, the 73-win season (along with Currys 400+ 3fgm, Klay's equally magnificient performance, Draymonds defense) masked all the Warriors weaknesses. OKC, HOU, tried to exploit the same weaknesses, but they just didnt have the firepower GSW had and this time, KD was already with the Warriors to plug all those holes.
Think about, this present GSW core 8-man rotation is practically the same as the 2015 champion team. If KD didnt join them, they would have been exposed again in 2017 and 2018 in the playoffs. It doesnt mean that they are a bad team or they'll lose the finals - theyre still favored, but that theyre not the unbeatable team that the totally unbeatable 73-win season deceptively made them out to be.
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On June 11 2019 07:44 Twinkle Toes wrote:@JC Toronto is a beautiful city! I used to think it was like Detroit or some wilder New Orleans, but wow! @BlackJack Injuries are part of the game, This late in the season, players are always injured one way or the other. But injuries are not the main reason GSW lost the championship. Green played in Games 6 and 7. The Warriors core was complete by then. Even if we take out the injury factor, 2016 Cavs gameplanned against the Warriors perfectly, which is why they won. Like I said, the 73-win season (along with Currys 400+ 3fgm, Klay's equally magnificient performance, Draymonds defense) masked all the Warriors weaknesses. OKC, HOU, tried to exploit the same weaknesses, but they just didnt have the firepower GSW had and this time, KD was already with the Warriors to plug all those holes. Think about, this present GSW core 8-man rotation is practically the same as the 2015 champion team. If KD didnt join them, they would have been exposed again in 2017 and 2018 in the playoffs. It doesnt mean that they are a bad team or they'll lose the finals - theyre still favored, but that theyre not the unbeatable team that the totally unbeatable 73-win season deceptively made them out to be.
Yes, fine. KD joined the championship favorite, but not unbeatable, 73 win Warriors with the reigning MVP, reigning coach of the year, runner-up DPOY, and runner-up 6th man of the year. Then with KD they became unbeatable.
Honestly I don't think anyone was making the argument that they were unbeatable, considering they had just been beaten.
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There goes KD, cred for him trying but that injury just got worse.
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On June 11 2019 10:56 Disregard wrote: There goes KD, cred for him trying but that injury just got worse.
Dang that sucks. I missed the half, but looks like he was playing some real ball
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This is such a fun finals. Very evenly matched teams. Sad to see kd reinjured.
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KD's star is dimmed forever. He will never catch Lebron. It's all downhill from here. Might as well go be Melo 2.0 in New York.
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This game is like the epitome of tough to watch from a, "I like to see good play rewarded" standpoint.
Both teams are shooting like 70% on bs insane shots and 15% on wide open threes.
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Well, Kawhi just took a fat shit on the Warriors.
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What a ball game! Yikes GSW not done yet
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This game was a damn mess.
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It's so stupid to send KD on the floor. Yeah, I get it it's the finals and all, but injuries have to HEAL. He's over 30 now. Maybe he still had the injury on his mind and was moving slightly differently, which was putting some strain on his leg. Either way, letting him play was simply reckless. His career is in danger.
Congratz GSW for a well earned win, splash bros were clutch down the stretch. Still, a bittersweet victory.
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KD must be so pissed at who ever told him he was fine to play. Hopefully this does not wreck his career. Yikes.
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