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Thank you for all the great work. ZerO is awesome as well. Some thoughts.
1) Mental fortitude
I was always hearing good things about ZerO during practice. I was wondering why in this era where some of the more mediocre zergs in terms of overall skill were having not that much difficulty having relatively good success in individual leagues, ZerO was always being more a staple appearance in the round of 16 than any other zergs who made their debut in the modern era (zergs who made their debut after 2007), yet failed to progress far into the latter stages of the individual leagues until very end of Brood War.
I guess I thought he had trouble demonstrating his full gaming capacity on televised games. From his answer, it seems like he actually didn't have much issue with stage fright, or being on tilt. However, his demeanor during streams, and his answer about his mindset during practice seems to highlight a potential cause for this disparity of what was being rumoured of his skills during practice, and what he was actually achieving as a professional gamer.
A matter of life and death. Some really did approach the game in this matter. They had to win no matter of. Jaedong was a prime example of this. Judging by his answer, maybe ZerO was displaying a good proportion of his skill on televised games, but perhaps he just played another game of Brood War, while his opponents were doing everything in their power to win. Coupled with his tendencies to focus more on his own game, and letting his opponents take the initiative, and not caring that much about disrupting their flow of the game, his relative lackadaisical approach to high pressure games may have caused what I perceived to be his lack of success compared to his pure gaming abilities.
2) TvZ balance
Nobody can debate that the level of execution was higher during the professional era. However, even before the introduction of the late-mech strategy, the terran race as a whole were doing fine against zergs as a whole. There were numerous periods where the imbalance approached an 6:4 ratio in favour of terran, even when we set the minimal time frame to a year to gain sufficient data. Even during 2009, when there were non-stop zerg versus zerg finals, and Flash lost terribly to ZerO and SoulKey during practice when he tried out pure bionic play against them, the terran race was basically even against zergs in terms of overall statistics.
Of course, there is always the argument that the level of balance shifts according to the level of the players. Jaedong was almost untouchable if you tried to win versus him with conventional standard bionic play on reasonably balanced maps. However, I would argue that Jaedong had mastered the execution of that match-up to a higher degree than any other zergs, and terran players had mastered the execution of pure bionic play. When Light played standard bionic games versus Jaedong, he would often push Jaedong to the limit, and sometimes manage to outmuscle him in a pure multi-tasking battle in this most intensive battle of mechanics (the demands of an intensive bionic game versus zergs often yielded the highest eAPM numbers from both sides of the race).
For example in team melee, or micro/macro UMS played by the professionals, you'll see how frightening effective well managed bionic troops can be even against the might of Jaedong's mutalisks with other professionals taking care of the base.
In my eyes, the TvZ match-up right before the rise of late-mech wasn't broken (sure, if you take into account the balance of the other match-ups, zergs being even against terrans would make them over-powered in the overall scheme of things, but a 50/50 split in a match-up is as fair as it gets in terms of balance for the match-up specifically, and makes that match-up a battle of skill and execution). A terran player with the mechanical mastery of all things related to bionic play (basically an upgraded version of Light) would have been fine versus Jaedong in my opinion. It would have been an even split.
Late-mech allowed terran players to have less mechanical demands, as well as having the strategical upper hand, and I think ZerO is right in saying that terran players of today don't even come close to having the standard bionic abilities when they were fighting for their lives to have a 50/50 balance versus zergs. If terran players of today incorporated some of the bionic play seen in the professional era, as well as abusing the meta-game advancements that happened since then, the match-up will be broken beyond repair (unless we see another huge meta-game advancement from the zerg side), in my personal opinion.
3) The styles of various top zerg players.
Almost all zergs seem to agree with this, the spectrum is as follows.
Jaedong-EffOrt-ZerO/SoulKey
4) Aztec is a good map for zergs.
I don't think Aztec is a map that is built for zergs. Rather, it is a map that kills terrans. There are so many features about this map that makes it difficult for terrans against both zergs, and even harder protoss. It's a very good map for protoss in general. I don't think they made this map to help zergs. We know how much the people behind the scenes hate ZvZ.
I love ZerO. He was my second favourite zerg during the modern era of Brood War even when EffOrt became the centre of attention with his miraculous 3-2 victory over Flash. If you go over my past history, years back, you'll often see me gushing at ZerO's late-game ability. I was less of an EffOrt fan, probably because ZerO was on the other side of the spectrum, and during Jaedong's relative decline in skill (not in absolute terms, but relatively speaking, he was so much more ahead it wasn't even funny) during the very end of Brood War, ZerO had some aspects of the zerg race mastered better than Jaedong. EffOrt was a different kind of beast, very talented with his clever zergling movements and on-the-spot decision making and mind games, and won games probably left his opponents thinking "Wow. I just got played."
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Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits?
A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/512299-top-10-earners-of-july
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post 
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465 Posts
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On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote:Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits?A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited. This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50. But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2. But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/512299-top-10-earners-of-julyThe amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally). Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money. And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them. And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them. There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
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United States11390 Posts
Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard.
Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player?
A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it.
Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard.
Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect.
Jaedong: That’s right.
Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other.
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Always been a fan of Zero! I wished they did interviews like this years ago
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On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote:Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard. Show nested quote +Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player?
A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it. Show nested quote +Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard.
Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect.
Jaedong: That’s right.
Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other.
Jaedong actually has one of the smallest hands out of any professional gamers. His hand measures at 18 cm, which is quite smaller than the average figure 20.7cm for all Brood War professionals. FanTaSy, Rumble, and PuSan have some of the biggest hands, with hands that measure at 24 cm.
The more look into the career of Jaedong, the more amazed I am of the rigours he must have went through to overcome the numerous unfavourable conditions he had to start off with.
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On January 05 2017 11:59 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote:Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard. Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player?
A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it. Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard.
Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect.
Jaedong: That’s right.
Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other. Jaedong actually has one of the smallest hands out of any professional gamers. His hand measures at 18 cm, which is quite smaller than the average figure 20.7cm for all Brood War professionals. FanTaSy, Rumble, and PuSan have some of the biggest hands, with hands that measure at 24 cm. The more look into the career of Jaedong, the more amazed I am of the rigours he must have went through to overcome the numerous unfavourable conditions he had to start off with.
How are the players hands measured? I want to measure my own hand as a relative reference point for comparison.
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On January 05 2017 14:21 Atom[Bomb] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 11:59 Letmelose wrote:On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote:Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard. Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player?
A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it. Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard.
Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect.
Jaedong: That’s right.
Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other. Jaedong actually has one of the smallest hands out of any professional gamers. His hand measures at 18 cm, which is quite smaller than the average figure 20.7cm for all Brood War professionals. FanTaSy, Rumble, and PuSan have some of the biggest hands, with hands that measure at 24 cm. The more look into the career of Jaedong, the more amazed I am of the rigours he must have went through to overcome the numerous unfavourable conditions he had to start off with. How are the players hands measured? I want to measure my own hand as a relative reference point for comparison.
https://www.piliapp.com/actual-size/cm-ruler/
I actually have no idea, but I'm taller/have bigger hands than most of my friends (who are Korean), so I don't think it's just wrist to the ends of your third finger. Perhaps they are the measurements of the absolute maximum reach you can create with your hands from your thumb to your ring finger. I can manage 23 cm.
As another option, it could be the reach from your little finger to your thumb, which makes sense as that's probably the way in which professional players set up their hotkeys (with their little finger on control, and their thumbs on the bumbers). I can manage 22 cm this way. This is probably the most likely measurement.
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On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote:Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard. Show nested quote +Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player?
A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it. Show nested quote +Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard.
Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect.
Jaedong: That’s right.
Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other.
Can you link to the JD/flash interview?
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Zero does a pretty good drawing of himself after all! Who knew.
Great Article.
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Awesome interview. ZerO self portrait may be the coolest thing ever!
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On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote:And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them. There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
You´re right. Im unsure what would be the best option here. Maybe a Kespa Merchandise Store. A DVD Collection of past Seasons. Ways to directly support teams or players through the stream like that Balloon System.
Like yourself i never really paid for the streams i watched. Kinda feels bad now.
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United States11390 Posts
On January 05 2017 14:54 skern49 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote:Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard. Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player?
A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it. Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard.
Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect.
Jaedong: That’s right.
Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other. Can you link to the JD/flash interview?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/111390-translation-interview-with-jaedong-and-flash
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Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why?
A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be.
Thank you Zero. We always knew TvZ was vastly imbalanced matchup, especially in the Kespa days. Flash should be required to give back some of his awards.
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Brilliant interview, one of the best ones by far. Don't worry ZerO, I think I'm going to get kicked to military this year too if I won't make a plan to escape again 
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On January 05 2017 11:35 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote:Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits?A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited. This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50. But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2. But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/512299-top-10-earners-of-julyThe amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally). Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money. And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them. And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them. There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post There are three types of people in Brood War. 1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for. 2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller. 3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
On your second point, sAviOr was quoted spreading his matchfixing ring to allow low-earning players to actually make more money from the game, given how elements that weren't related to their skill (such as looks, as mentioned many times by Britney) were used to keep them off A-teams or keep them from televised games. Looking at type-b's story in particular, facts supporting this theory seem to add up.
On January 05 2017 11:58 iSometric wrote:
Always been a fan of Zero! I wished they did interviews like this years ago
Blame the Korean presentation being aimed towards women.
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On January 05 2017 20:14 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 11:35 Letmelose wrote:On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote:Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits?A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited. This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50. But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2. But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/512299-top-10-earners-of-julyThe amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally). Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money. And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them. And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them. There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post There are three types of people in Brood War. 1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for. 2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller. 3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me. On your second point, sAviOr was quoted spreading his matchfixing ring to allow low-earning players to actually make more money from the game, given how elements that weren't related to their skill (such as looks, as mentioned many times by Britney) were used to keep them off A-teams or keep them from televised games. Looking at type-b's story in particular, facts supporting this theory seem to add up. Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 11:58 iSometric wrote:
Always been a fan of Zero! I wished they did interviews like this years ago Blame the Korean presentation being aimed towards women.
Let me see if this adds up. So I guess he was trying to give more financial support to XellOs as well, the rookie terran player who was struggling to make his impact on the scene since making his debut in 2001, considering how he tried to make him participate in match-fixing. Or how he took the time to contact players from other teams, such as STX SouL, in order to save the struggling career of Hwasin (the best paid member of the team). I guess Hwasin must have been a pretty ugly dude who only got his sick salary off being by far the best terran player ever, and managed to sustain his living thanks to sAviOr. He must have been a very kind, and loving person to his fellow professional gamers, and must be adored by everyone for his wholesome personality.
How deluded are you to believe the excuses of the guy who used his personal connections to bring down the careers of not only his teammates, but players from other teams? Do you know how many people he asked to be involved in match-fixing? Do you really think that he targetted people without much interest from the betting sites? You do realize how match-fixing works right? In what universe can sAviOr's actions be explained by how he wanted to help the financial circumstances of low-earning players? Do you even realize how many careers of low-earning professional players were ruined by the match-fixing incident?
I don't even know what sAviOr said, but all of the things I have said were proven in court. If whatever crazy excuses sAviOr came up made you believe in his sociopathic justification of his actions, good for you, but I know what every single streamers on Afreeca had to say on sAviOr as a person, not just his involvement in the match-fixing, and I know every details of what he actually did that were proven to be guilty in the court of justice. It doesn't add up. If sAviOr really said that about his motivations for being involved in match-fixing just to save his own face in front of the thousands of fans who still desperately wanted to worship him as a hero, then he must be more sociopathic than I initially thought.
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"Today, he is just like a cute little brother. A cute brother who is uglier than me."
Hehehe
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465 Posts
On January 05 2017 11:35 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote:Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits?A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited. This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50. But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2. But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/512299-top-10-earners-of-julyThe amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally). Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money. And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them. And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them. There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post There are three types of people in Brood War. 1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for. 2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller. 3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
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EPT
