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Italy2575 Posts
...wtf was this qualifier? so bad...
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On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. Just checked: he did. The only game he lost was on KSS, the map he didn't go 3 rax reaper on.
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Wait liquipedia says Bo7. Did that change?
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On November 14 2016 04:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wait liquipedia says Bo7. Did that change?
Official bracket says bo3.
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Italy2575 Posts
On November 14 2016 04:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wait liquipedia says Bo7. Did that change? ...everything was reduced to bo3... bah...
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On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game.
I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in.
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On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive
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On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT.
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On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses.
That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map).
On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in.
I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind).
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On November 14 2016 04:37 CynicalDeath wrote: ...wtf was this qualifier? so bad... It's probably also only a matter of time before it turns out nobody got paid.
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On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Quick question because I'm curious: what maps do you veto in ZvT, because the matchup seems impossible on Frozen and Galactic, yet I always see you playing on one of them each series.
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On November 14 2016 04:51 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Quick question because I'm curious: what maps do you veto in ZvT, because the matchup seems impossible on Frozen and Galactic, yet I always see you playing on one of them each series. frozen and dasan are even worse than galactic
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On November 14 2016 04:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map). Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind). You should be veto'ing galactic process anyway. Terrans either going to 3rax or 2 base tank push. Both are extremely hard to hold.
I never play it in tournaments.
On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Solar didn't. He just made them into ravagers, got the utility he could out of them, and transitioned to ling bane when he saw T was going bio.
It isn't easy and I think it's bullshit but I don't think it's a "reaper" issue. It's a "Zerg has really punishing game design and people flip their shit at any suggestion to give Z the same treatment as T.
On November 14 2016 04:42 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT. I'm more for messing with reapers over TvT than ZvT. But like I said, it's not about taking zero economic damage. It's about not overcommitting to the defense. Which is extremely challenging.
Normally Z has really good scouting but when gas is being sunk into defense, it means OL speed is harder to get and scouting has to be done with a slowverlord. gl there Z.
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On November 14 2016 04:52 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:51 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Quick question because I'm curious: what maps do you veto in ZvT, because the matchup seems impossible on Frozen and Galactic, yet I always see you playing on one of them each series. frozen and dasan are even worse than galactic I'm surprised you veto dasan since you're so damn good with mutas in ZvT.
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On November 14 2016 04:57 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map). On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind). You should be veto'ing galactic process anyway. Terrans either going to 3rax or 2 base tank push. Both are extremely hard to hold. I never play it in tournaments. Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Solar didn't. He just made them into ravagers, got the utility he could out of them, and transitioned to ling bane when he saw T was going bio. It isn't easy and I think it's bullshit but I don't think it's a "reaper" issue. It's a "Zerg has really punishing game design and people flip their shit at any suggestion to give Z the same treatment as T. Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:42 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT. I'm more for messing with reapers over TvT than ZvT. But like I said, it's not about taking zero economic damage. It's about not overcommitting to the defense. Which is extremely challenging. Normally Z has really good scouting but when gas is being sunk into defense, it means OL speed is harder to get and scouting has to be done with a slowverlord. gl there Z. the problem is the follow up attack with 2 medivacs hit right when you're going into lings/ling upgrades. ive held 3rax losing no more than 2 lings and making only 4 ravagers and still lose handily
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On November 14 2016 04:57 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map). On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind). You should be veto'ing galactic process anyway. Terrans either going to 3rax or 2 base tank push. Both are extremely hard to hold. I never play it in tournaments. Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Solar didn't. He just made them into ravagers, got the utility he could out of them, and transitioned to ling bane when he saw T was going bio. It isn't easy and I think it's bullshit but I don't think it's a "reaper" issue. It's a "Zerg has really punishing game design and people flip their shit at any suggestion to give Z the same treatment as T. Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:42 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT. I'm more for messing with reapers over TvT than ZvT. But like I said, it's not about taking zero economic damage. It's about not overcommitting to the defense. Which is extremely challenging. Normally Z has really good scouting but when gas is being sunk into defense, it means OL speed is harder to get and scouting has to be done with a slowverlord. gl there Z.
Saying that you should just veto Galactic Process is the admission of a problem not a solution. It's not just a problem with the maps either--each new map rotation introduces a fairly consistent stream of 3-rax reaper maps. Paladino Terminal is probably the best 3-rax reaper map yet.
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On November 14 2016 05:01 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:57 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map). On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind). You should be veto'ing galactic process anyway. Terrans either going to 3rax or 2 base tank push. Both are extremely hard to hold. I never play it in tournaments. On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Solar didn't. He just made them into ravagers, got the utility he could out of them, and transitioned to ling bane when he saw T was going bio. It isn't easy and I think it's bullshit but I don't think it's a "reaper" issue. It's a "Zerg has really punishing game design and people flip their shit at any suggestion to give Z the same treatment as T. On November 14 2016 04:42 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT. I'm more for messing with reapers over TvT than ZvT. But like I said, it's not about taking zero economic damage. It's about not overcommitting to the defense. Which is extremely challenging. Normally Z has really good scouting but when gas is being sunk into defense, it means OL speed is harder to get and scouting has to be done with a slowverlord. gl there Z. the problem is the follow up attack with 2 medivacs hit right when you're going into lings/ling upgrades. ive held 3rax losing no more than 2 lings and making only 4 ravagers and still lose handily No arguments here. It's extremely powerful and my win rate in ZvT is awful. If they do nerf it I'm not gonna say a word.
But I do see Zergs at pro and below holding it and coming out ahead. It's just, like Solar424 said, really fucking hard to scout and know how much defense you need and what the followup is while simultaneously playing a game of "if I mess up it's over".
On November 14 2016 05:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 04:57 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map). On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind). You should be veto'ing galactic process anyway. Terrans either going to 3rax or 2 base tank push. Both are extremely hard to hold. I never play it in tournaments. On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Solar didn't. He just made them into ravagers, got the utility he could out of them, and transitioned to ling bane when he saw T was going bio. It isn't easy and I think it's bullshit but I don't think it's a "reaper" issue. It's a "Zerg has really punishing game design and people flip their shit at any suggestion to give Z the same treatment as T. On November 14 2016 04:42 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT. I'm more for messing with reapers over TvT than ZvT. But like I said, it's not about taking zero economic damage. It's about not overcommitting to the defense. Which is extremely challenging. Normally Z has really good scouting but when gas is being sunk into defense, it means OL speed is harder to get and scouting has to be done with a slowverlord. gl there Z. Saying that you should just veto Galactic Process is the admission of a problem not a solution. It's not just a problem with the maps either--each new map rotation introduces a fairly consistent stream of 3-rax reaper maps. Paladino Terminal is probably the best 3-rax reaper map yet. I'm saying I'm vetoing it anyway because the tank push on the third is so fucking irritating to play against that I'd rather deal with it on KSS than Gal. The 3rax is just icing on the burnt cake.
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On November 14 2016 05:08 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 05:01 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:57 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map). On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind). You should be veto'ing galactic process anyway. Terrans either going to 3rax or 2 base tank push. Both are extremely hard to hold. I never play it in tournaments. On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Solar didn't. He just made them into ravagers, got the utility he could out of them, and transitioned to ling bane when he saw T was going bio. It isn't easy and I think it's bullshit but I don't think it's a "reaper" issue. It's a "Zerg has really punishing game design and people flip their shit at any suggestion to give Z the same treatment as T. On November 14 2016 04:42 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT. I'm more for messing with reapers over TvT than ZvT. But like I said, it's not about taking zero economic damage. It's about not overcommitting to the defense. Which is extremely challenging. Normally Z has really good scouting but when gas is being sunk into defense, it means OL speed is harder to get and scouting has to be done with a slowverlord. gl there Z. the problem is the follow up attack with 2 medivacs hit right when you're going into lings/ling upgrades. ive held 3rax losing no more than 2 lings and making only 4 ravagers and still lose handily No arguments here. It's extremely powerful and my win rate in ZvT is awful. If they do nerf it I'm not gonna say a word. But I do see Zergs at pro and below holding it and coming out ahead. It's just, like Solar424 said, really fucking hard to scout and know how much defense you need and what the followup is while simultaneously playing a game of "if I mess up it's over". Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 05:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:57 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map). On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind). You should be veto'ing galactic process anyway. Terrans either going to 3rax or 2 base tank push. Both are extremely hard to hold. I never play it in tournaments. On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Solar didn't. He just made them into ravagers, got the utility he could out of them, and transitioned to ling bane when he saw T was going bio. It isn't easy and I think it's bullshit but I don't think it's a "reaper" issue. It's a "Zerg has really punishing game design and people flip their shit at any suggestion to give Z the same treatment as T. On November 14 2016 04:42 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT. I'm more for messing with reapers over TvT than ZvT. But like I said, it's not about taking zero economic damage. It's about not overcommitting to the defense. Which is extremely challenging. Normally Z has really good scouting but when gas is being sunk into defense, it means OL speed is harder to get and scouting has to be done with a slowverlord. gl there Z. Saying that you should just veto Galactic Process is the admission of a problem not a solution. It's not just a problem with the maps either--each new map rotation introduces a fairly consistent stream of 3-rax reaper maps. Paladino Terminal is probably the best 3-rax reaper map yet. I'm saying I'm vetoing it anyway because the tank push on the third is so fucking irritating to play against that I'd rather deal with it on KSS than Gal. The 3rax is just icing on the burnt cake. then the terrans arent doing it properly. kelazur is better with the build than byun (saying this having practiced many games vs byun for blizzcon) and i have not won a game in months vs him when he does it
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On November 14 2016 05:12 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 05:08 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 05:01 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:57 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map). On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind). You should be veto'ing galactic process anyway. Terrans either going to 3rax or 2 base tank push. Both are extremely hard to hold. I never play it in tournaments. On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Solar didn't. He just made them into ravagers, got the utility he could out of them, and transitioned to ling bane when he saw T was going bio. It isn't easy and I think it's bullshit but I don't think it's a "reaper" issue. It's a "Zerg has really punishing game design and people flip their shit at any suggestion to give Z the same treatment as T. On November 14 2016 04:42 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT. I'm more for messing with reapers over TvT than ZvT. But like I said, it's not about taking zero economic damage. It's about not overcommitting to the defense. Which is extremely challenging. Normally Z has really good scouting but when gas is being sunk into defense, it means OL speed is harder to get and scouting has to be done with a slowverlord. gl there Z. the problem is the follow up attack with 2 medivacs hit right when you're going into lings/ling upgrades. ive held 3rax losing no more than 2 lings and making only 4 ravagers and still lose handily No arguments here. It's extremely powerful and my win rate in ZvT is awful. If they do nerf it I'm not gonna say a word. But I do see Zergs at pro and below holding it and coming out ahead. It's just, like Solar424 said, really fucking hard to scout and know how much defense you need and what the followup is while simultaneously playing a game of "if I mess up it's over". On November 14 2016 05:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:57 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:38 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. Did Kelazhur 3-rax reaper on Frost? Probably since it's the only opener he knows how to do in this matchup, otherwise he loses. That's a good point. I was just asking because he always 3-rax reapers on Frozen Temple, Galactic Process, Apotheosis, whereas he doesn't always 3-rax on Frost (which is admittedly not as good of a 3-rax reaper map). On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. I don't agree with that. On Frozen Temple or Galactic Process, even with a perfect response the terran will still be incrementally ahead due to the ability to freely get 3 cc double engineering bay behind it. Frost is a nicer map for zerg due to less cliffable areas, so I think a zerg playing perfectly should be ahead on it, and on Apotheosis the terran needs to do more damage due to the necessity of proxying the 3-rax (also it's Apotheosis so the terran is fundamentally behind). You should be veto'ing galactic process anyway. Terrans either going to 3rax or 2 base tank push. Both are extremely hard to hold. I never play it in tournaments. On November 14 2016 04:42 Scarlett` wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. if you go roaches and defend them without losing a single unit you still arent significantly ahead; and then you have to play roach into hive Solar didn't. He just made them into ravagers, got the utility he could out of them, and transitioned to ling bane when he saw T was going bio. It isn't easy and I think it's bullshit but I don't think it's a "reaper" issue. It's a "Zerg has really punishing game design and people flip their shit at any suggestion to give Z the same treatment as T. On November 14 2016 04:42 Solar424 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 14 2016 04:34 Solar424 wrote: Something needs to be done about reapers. This is absurd. Terran shouldn't be able to apply this much pressure with so few units while macroing up at home. You don't even need Byun's micro to do it either: this map pool just requires you to have enough of a brain to spam out grenades. The difficulty is gauging just how much you need to defend. If you do successfully defend then Terran is really behind. The rub is you have to defend in two ways. You have to prevent the obvious economic damage and you also have to avoid taking indirect damage by making too many units to defend. Solar last night showed a perfect response by having just enough to prevent reapers from getting any work done and droning like crazy behind it. Terran was super far behind because of it and just couldn't keep up in the late game. I'm not gonna complain if reapers get nerfed but at the same time I think they're just a symptom of an underlying problem. Terran has incredible offense, defense, and micro units. They're the complete package. Other races have issues in one of those regards. Zerg can't get aggressive in the early game without being all in. Well the problem is Zerg can't scout Terran's base because you need all units back at home to defend, and overlords can just get picked off easily. I've seen games where the Zerg takes literally 0 damage to reapers and still loses because they had to commit to defensive units and just died to a tankivac/marine push. Reaper grenade needs to be nerfed or removed outright because right now it's ruining ZvT and TvT. I'm more for messing with reapers over TvT than ZvT. But like I said, it's not about taking zero economic damage. It's about not overcommitting to the defense. Which is extremely challenging. Normally Z has really good scouting but when gas is being sunk into defense, it means OL speed is harder to get and scouting has to be done with a slowverlord. gl there Z. Saying that you should just veto Galactic Process is the admission of a problem not a solution. It's not just a problem with the maps either--each new map rotation introduces a fairly consistent stream of 3-rax reaper maps. Paladino Terminal is probably the best 3-rax reaper map yet. I'm saying I'm vetoing it anyway because the tank push on the third is so fucking irritating to play against that I'd rather deal with it on KSS than Gal. The 3rax is just icing on the burnt cake. then the terrans arent doing it properly. kelazur is better with the build than byun (saying this having practiced many games vs byun for blizzcon) and i have not won a game in months vs him when he does it I don't have the heart to argue against what you're saying because I too deal with it and know how frustrating it is.
What gives me motivation to believe is seeing other zergs stop it. I know if I practice and I study them I can do it too. But maybe Blizzard will listen and nerf it before then.
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Reapers do seem a little strong right now, I agree. You definitely can hold against it, but it means no room for error and even if you play perfectly, you aren't really ahead at all either!
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