s1mple twitter bad attitude - Page 3
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Muffloe
Sweden6061 Posts
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
<3 s1mple | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On February 11 2016 18:43 Ragnarork wrote: I quite remember well the 2011-2012 era of TL SC2. It's not that far. And I know I'm not the one who felt a difference after the Liquid - Curse merge. I'm not really judging that, just that I preferred the approach (or at least what I saw as) the TL Pro from 2011-2012. Is that still hilarious? How does that feel exactly? Maybe I'm completely blindfolded and don't really realize what I imply with that, but that's how I feel nonetheless. Well alright, I was around in 2011-2012 but maybe I wasn't paying attention to how sanitized the discussions were back then. I remember the days before 2010 when TL was a lot less politically correct and frankly a lot more interesting. But fine I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Either way like I said before, there's a cultural disconnect between the West and Ukraine, CS people in these countries, especially the younger ones with few ties with the our sponsors, frequently put their foot in their mouth because it's not viewed as as wrong out there. Surely you have to understand that our aversion toward sexism doesn't go without saying. We've developed a keen eye for it, and he hasn't. Youth + Eastern Europe shenanigans. Give him time and if he can't help it then drop him, but don't flip the fuck out. If you instantly want people from other countries to adhere to Western norms you've must have never been in a big city! Takes time. | ||
MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
Thorin goes on about how the worst thing TL can do is teach him english because he can then start cussing and badmouthing in english and will actually be able to comprehend him (haha). + Show Spoiler [clip of that part] + He was obviously joking, but his point about cultural differences was spot on (I thought) at the time (I have worked with a lot of people who have moved to the US from eastern europe). Anyways this reminded me of those few funny minutes because -not only was it hilarious, but- it wasn't that hard to see some issues coming up. Specially since the topic of s1mple is currently so hot and is essentially under a giant microscope. With that said I don't think it's a big deal, I am not even sure this has to do with that culture change, as much as him just being young. I think a warning would be enough. edit:added the youtube clip + Show Spoiler + | ||
NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
In real sports you would potentially fine the player but I dont think thats going to happen here. Just my 2 cents. Also about the role model idea of some people and the video posted. Ofcourse he not paid to be role model but being a person of public interest and you certainly are if you are an active progamer in CSGO or any game that gets to the public will and should hold you responsible for what you say. Now if you don't act on your player bashing on female competitors (in this case) you are basically either not giving a single fuck OR you are backing your player. This ofcourse can be a team choice but when sponsors of those big teams get to know it might not be a team but a business choice. Personally as team and as sponsor I would not want to back up that player nor have him on my team. | ||
Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
For us this is a matter we take very seriously. His tweet is not acceptable and absolutely not something we can condone. In gaming there are lots of problems with the treatment of women and we should all be doing our best to make the environment better not worse (this does not mean you can't be critical). We've engaged in conversation with s1mple about all of this. After addressing the problems with his tweet we followed up by going through the process of talking to him for several hours, going over player training, cultural differences, social media behavior, etc. Honestly, there was a lot of understanding from s1mple both to the issue at hand, as well as how serious we are taking this. In the end he is focused on how to get better about it. As part of this process we have opted to give s1mple an official warning notice, as what happened is very clearly against our code of conduct (that he signed as a part of his player agreement). Hopefully we can leave this behind us and look positively with an eye on the future. | ||
Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On February 10 2016 22:32 sertas wrote: if he said the exact same thing about a male team people wouldnt even react, double standards much Even if true this is a really dangerous argument to make as the meaning of the statement doesn't carry over when you change the subject. It just becomes something entirely different. | ||
Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
If you can make him understand then all is good, but I wouldn't count on it too much. | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On February 12 2016 05:02 NarutO wrote: I think the only acceptable move for this and for Teamliquid is indeed banning him from the team. In real sports you would potentially fine the player but I dont think thats going to happen here. Just my 2 cents. I'm getting increasingly annoyed with that very TL-ian tendency to not ever want to give second chances, regardless of the attenuating circumstances. What's with that harsh punitive attitude toward everything? He said something shitty, he's getting punished and he has a formal warning, what's the big deal? I like the video MassHysteria linked. He talks about how the Na'Vi guys, not tied down by western sponsorships, will say very inflammatory stuff to each other, but no one cares because it's in Russian and Ukrainian. Keep that in mind, understand that s1mple is young and different culturally, allow him to transition. Outright asking for a "ban" is absurd. | ||
TheEmulator
28072 Posts
On February 12 2016 05:35 Roggay wrote: I am not a fan of the ultra pc attitude and I don't think it was that big of a deal, but then again I can understand it from a business point of view and that a brand cannot tolerate this or not take any actions. If you can make him understand then all is good, but I wouldn't count on it too much. He's fairly young so I can see him trying to fix his attitude, especially since it's his career on the line. A little bit of maturity and IRL experience does a lot. If he was like 30 then yea I wouldn't count on it. | ||
Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
It is important to adjust your language, even if your message remains the same, depending on who you talk to. Complaining about political correctness, and the change of teamliquid.net from a small core community to a gaming- and e-sports industry staple, in my eyes is just refusing to adapt to the times. It's not 2007 anymore. | ||
NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On February 12 2016 05:38 Djzapz wrote: I'm getting increasingly annoyed with that very TL-ian tendency to not ever want to give second chances, regardless of the attenuating circumstances. What's with that harsh punitive attitude toward everything? He said something shitty, he's getting punished and he has a formal warning, what's the big deal? I like the video MassHysteria linked. He talks about how the Na'Vi guys, not tied down by western sponsorships, will say very inflammatory stuff to each other, but no one cares because it's in Russian and Ukrainian. Keep that in mind, understand that s1mple is young and different culturally, allow him to transition. Outright asking for a "ban" is absurd. Young and different culturally. Excuse me if I am wrong but when I did travel to places beyond my cultural knowledge I either informed myself or in that case it would simply be sufficient to not act like a dick. Also if you would have read my statement I believe putting a fine on the player would put out a clear statement towards the public as well. 'Given an official warning' might just leave the issue unadressed. Also I am all for second chances but I am also a person who believes that you hold responsibility for your actions. In that case I believe it should have been a harder punishment from Teamliquid. So; this has nothing to do with TL-ian tendency. As another example Starcraft related: http://i.imgur.com/5PK9au3.png While Kane wasn't nice I believe Naniwa's response should have got him a ban in the WCS season as rules clearly allow such measurement. Ofcourse you can disagree there as well but I simply believe some things cross the line and a warning isn't sufficient. You dont need to like that opinion NOR do you need to agree but you also made no point that would result in me changing my opinion and I am usually very open to change my mind if someone brings up valid points. Edit: For all it counts I believe for his comment he could be from another culture and simply not being stupid or putting at least 1 second of thought into his tweet would have avoided all of this. | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On February 12 2016 06:30 NarutO wrote: Young and different culturally. Excuse me if I am wrong but when I did travel to places beyond my cultural knowledge I either informed myself or in that case it would simply be sufficient to not act like a dick. Also if you would have read my statement I believe putting a fine on the player would put out a clear statement towards the public as well. So when YOU, a German man (presumably) traveled to places beyond your cultural knowledge, YOU did what YOU felt was sufficient, and YOU think everyone should be held to your German standards of etiquette. I don't think that's fair. As for fining players, that may be a good solution for these things in the future if they had some sort of clauses in the contract where these kinds of things would lead to some monetary penalties, but I don't think we're there. 'Given an official warning' might just leave the issue unadressed. Also I am all for second chances but I am also a person who believes that you hold responsibility for your actions. In that case I believe it should have been a harder punishment from Teamliquid. The fact that it "might just leave the issue unaddressed" doesn't mean it's bad. If the issue is unaddressed and s1mple does it again and it still goes without tangible sanctions then you'll get to complain, but until then I think this is fair. Strike one, odds are the kid just has no conception of what's considered sexism in the West (it's very different... like seriously it's a different ballpark entirely). Now he knows, let's see where it goes. Edit: For all it counts I believe for his comment he could be from another culture and simply not being stupid or putting at least 1 second of thought into his tweet would have avoided all of this. Look look, from my perspective it just looks like you're incapable of externalizing any of this, you have your set of norms and you think the rest of the world understands the word as you do. Young people in the CIS region simply don't have the filters that you do. However what I'm criticizing here is largely that you're blowing this outrage completely out of proportion and you're calling for a ban which is just not a punishment that fits the "crime" so to speak. If you think his tweet is shitty I agree with you but there's nothing to gain from handing out the harshest punishment at the first offense. Try to be reasonable -_-. I had a Pakistani exchange student at my place for a few weeks and let me tell you there were some cultural differences. Some people would've taken offense to the shit he did. What's the point of that, do you not understand how being raised differently in a completely different society might lead to these weird things? And I feel the need to stress that I don't think it exonerates him, but if he'd said that in Ukrainian while in a CIS-based team, none of the sponsors would have batted an eye. | ||
iXphobos
Germany1464 Posts
On the other hand i think this is his 3rd or 4th second chance now, so ... | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On February 12 2016 07:54 iXphobos wrote: I think i'm fine with giving him a second chance. On the other hand i think this is his 3rd or 4th second chance now, so ... First time when tied to the Western CS scene, no? Go translate Na'Vi's comms and you'll see they're on their billionth' chance. | ||
Faruko
Chile34164 Posts
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porkRaven
United States953 Posts
On February 12 2016 07:54 iXphobos wrote: I think i'm fine with giving him a second chance. On the other hand i think this is his 3rd or 4th second chance now, so ... I bet you're the type of person who wouldn't vote for trump. You don't want america to be great again. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 12 2016 09:28 porkRaven wrote: I bet you're the type of person who wouldn't vote for trump. You don't want america to be great again. The bait is strong with this one. The post could melt steel beams. | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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