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On September 23 2015 21:18 owlman wrote: Like i said earlier Cyclone opening is the answer to adept timing and overall cyclone is an extremly strong unit in TvP cos it can beat any protoss unit while beeing cost effectiv. (assuming the T abuse cyclone range) You might see this build as a pigeonhole but it was kinda the same with reaper expand in HOTS but cyclone expand is versatile cos you can defend any timing and cyclone are good harassing tools aswell.
Show me how to defend with cyclones vs comitting adept attacks, its not possible. The cyclone dps/speed is too low to kill the warpprism fast enough.
Cyclone's are ..
... slow & very "fat". They can easily being traped by forcefields and are too slow to hunt down oracles or warpprisms. ... very very bad for scouting (compared to the reaper) ... expensive and gas-intensive ... slow producing ... very bad without intensive micro and/or somewhat harder to use
The problem with early/heavy factory play in general is, that you have to invest a lot and that your bio army will be significantly smaller. Also keep in mind that a more diversified army composition for terran is very bad: reduced mobility, more/expensive infrastructure needed, hard to micro all the different units appropriate, double the amount of upgrades (bio + mech) needed.
Sooo, good luck with your double gas techlab factory!
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
Show me how to defend with cyclones vs comitting adept attacks, its not possible. The cyclone dps/speed is too low to kill the warpprism fast enough.
They just buffed the AA attack.
... very very bad for scouting (compared to the reaper)
Reaper usually arrives in base about 3-5 seconds after the first Adept finishes, it's not very good for scouting any more
I've seen little cyclone play before this recent buff but i doubt they're reliant on vehicle attack (just like liberators are not reliant on air attack)
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Cyclones have roughly the same speed as stalker + 14 range or so. And stalker can snipre WP or oracle with good position it takes less than 3sec for 4 cyclones to kill the WP = 1 warpin like i said in my small guide beforehand.
Did you ever try ? i guess no
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No, because I never had 4 (!!!!) Cyclones instantly in position (!!!) vs a early warpprism attack. Sorry owlman.
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The best you can do at 4:35 is 8 marines and 2 cyclones with an expand after factory
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
if you had 4 cyclones you could just kill the adepts no way to get them early with a good opening. Just 1-2 cyclones before were already a good response before they buffed the AA attack so i expect them to be much better at threatening a prism
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4:20 LOTV time 12 marines 3 cyclones the 4th one is up around 4:50. (expand is taken just after starting OC) You supposed to be on 2 bases not 3 or 4 or w/e so your army should be in your base, that's enough to kill the WP if it come too close. Don't forget that the WP has to stay iddle at least 4 sec to warp any units. Anyway DK will nerf offensiv warping back to 5 sec that's so obvious so the problem will be even more solved
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Thanks owlman for your gold league advice. Now go and play Heroes of the Storm or League of Legends please!
User was warned for this post
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yeah i guess that's pointless to give solution to angry kids like you , cya
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Do you have a replay, plz?
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I don't like to give away my pro strategies lolol, but the cyclone talk is overwhelming that I felt the need to share my thoughts. If protoss is going 1 rax fe instead of getting the 8 marines and 2 cyclones by 4:35 you need to be pushing at 4:20 with 2 TANKS 1 scv and 8 marines. FYI... I take my CC after fac.
The reason for this is because of the new photon overcharge the tank is no longer out ranged by a giant nexus cannon and you actually have the ability to pressure.
As i'm pushing out I build an ebay to get a turret back home and to build 1 turret or more if needed with the 2 bunkers i will build with my 8 marines and 2 tanks. I personally like to play mech so i'm transitioning into 2fac starport with ghosts afterwards, but it could easily be adapted for bio.
NOTE : I play random, so to be honest it's not often that I roll TvP, but lately when I have this is what i've been doing and it's worked pretty well for me. I hope it helps
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yeah I'd be curious, I used to not do the wp adept all in because I wanted to learn late game pvt but it just seems too hard for protoss to win past the adept bullshit, I've been doing it lately and nobody held it so far
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On September 24 2015 03:38 Ouija wrote: I don't like to give away my pro strategies lolol, but the cyclone talk is overwhelming that I felt the need to share my thoughts. If protoss is going 1 rax fe instead of getting the 8 marines and 2 cyclones by 4:35 you need to be pushing at 4:20 with 2 TANKS 1 scv and 8 marines. FYI... I take my CC after fac.
Guess me, I tried, but first tanks are totally useless against adept (shadow form: hello tanks!), without 1 medivac per tank (yep that sounds wierd) , and second point I never managed to teleport my army from my base to protoss expand, so you need 30 to 40 more seconds before getting raped with this push.
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On September 24 2015 03:43 BiiG-Fr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 03:38 Ouija wrote: I don't like to give away my pro strategies lolol, but the cyclone talk is overwhelming that I felt the need to share my thoughts. If protoss is going 1 rax fe instead of getting the 8 marines and 2 cyclones by 4:35 you need to be pushing at 4:20 with 2 TANKS 1 scv and 8 marines. FYI... I take my CC after fac.
Guess me, I tried, but first tanks are totally useless against adept (shadow form: hello tanks!), without 1 medivac per tank (yep that sounds wierd) , and second point I never managed to teleport my army from my base to protoss expand, so you need 30 to 40 more seconds before getting raped with this push.
Maybe on 4 player maps, but maps like terraform you can quickly reach the natural with little resistance. Dont siege up while walking across the map. 4 adepts wont kill 2 tanks and your marines, just dont' lose any marines and make sure the tanks take the damage. They can be repaired once you set up the bunkers.
Marines gain extra range in the bunkers and with tanks hugging them the protoss would have to sacrifice all their adepts just to kill the tanks and then the 2 bunkers are still there.
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and how do you kill the warp prism with 10 adepts in ur base
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On September 24 2015 04:05 ROOTFayth wrote: and how do you kill the warp prism with 10 adepts in ur base
I guess at that point it becomes a base trade and you can just unsiege and walk into the protoss main base and start building bunkers and turrets.. Snipe the robo first or the pylon charging it so they can't get any immortals out. float over to your defenses and go from there..
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
Even people like Cyro are starting to come around
I have not changed my opinions on the adept or liberator. We were never on the same page about pretty much anything discussed though because you was not clear at first and misinterpreted several things that i said
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On September 24 2015 08:04 Cyro wrote:I have not changed my opinions on the adept or liberator. We were never on the same page about pretty much anything discussed, though because you was not clear at first and misinterpreted several things that i said
I said people like you, not you. I.E. people who were stubbornly claiming that there was no problem with the Adept even after all this time. Obviously, I can't speak for you.
Also, I've offered to donate 100 bucks if you explain in an honest and clear manner where I was unclear and mislead you, and explain why you insisted on talking about the wrong build even after being told repeatedly by several people what was being discussed. Why not take this opportunity to raise money for your favorite charity while one upping an asshole on TL? It'll be fun and for a good cause.
I did misunderstand one of your posts, I admit, because it was so bizarrely irrelevant I preformed too much mental gymnastics trying to make sense of it in the context of the thread. I should have read it more carefully and I apologize. Had I done so, I would have realized that you had no idea what you were talking about much sooner.
User was temp banned for this post.
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^ Well that escalated quickly, lol.
IDEA for the Adept's Shade Had a conversation with my brother last night, my Archon partner, and we were discussing the Adept and how it's Shade ability causes so many problems. Maybe I should read all of Theo's post before I continue (but it's just so long! That's what she said ... okay, done.).
It seems as though a fair Adept count in an engagement has the ability to remove, or greatly reduce positional advantages for the opponent. Specifically, a Full-Frontal Attack by the Protoss can quickly turn into a Full Surround, or Pincer. This is accomplished by shading through the enemy army, and popping up behind it. The advantages of a Full Surround or Pincer don't need to be explained (but if you do need an explanation, you can read the post in my signature), but there is another feature at play here: The Protoss army loses no--or a negligible amount of--DPS by instantly transforming a frontal attack into a full surround.
A few thoughts ...
- Shade Canceling Threshold and Animation Tell: If the Shade lasts 6 seconds, you can only cancel it within the first 4 seconds (don't know the exact timings now). If you cancel the Shade within the threshold, the Shade animation changes slightly to indicate that it will not transfer.
- Friendly Shading Only: The Shade cannot pass through hostile units. This seems like a no-brainer, right?
- DPS Dampening: maybe activating the Shade, and transfering to the Shade location could impose a brief delay before the Adept could continue attacking. The fact that it can move, attack, and maybe instantly teleport at huge ranges, without missing a shot just seems like a bit much. Eh?
Unfortunately, these are design suggestions, and I think the design ship may have sailed already : /
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