TvP Adept play - Page 7
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KadaverBB
Germany25648 Posts
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On September 22 2015 16:56 KadaverBB wrote: Take it to PM guys, I think we've had enough bickering for a while But... But... My ego doesn't get a boost from PM debates. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20246 Posts
On September 22 2015 17:11 Bohemond wrote: But... But... My ego doesn't get a boost from PM debates. that is obvious | ||
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On September 22 2015 16:56 KadaverBB wrote: Take it to PM guys, I think we've had enough bickering for a while I actually don't mind the robust between Cyro and Boeh, but I do have something to add. Cyro is a long and storied member of this community, and while you may--okay, vehemently--disagree with him (as I have, on occasion), you are being unnecessarily combative, Boeh. You've been here a while too, Boeh, lurking, I guess (with such a low post count), but just make your argument, make it strong, and maybe leave the vitriol out? Now, you called me out--implicitly--for suggesting balance ideas. I did that because the Adept is currently broken, and the question, "How to deal with Adept play in TvP" doesn't have a good answer. I think the way to deal with Adept play is to discuss the experience, and suggest balance changes for the Blizzard TL lurkers. | ||
owlman
France58 Posts
Allright, I don't wanna sound mad at all. I just wanna have some tips and advices. But how can you counter this build with Terran? Cyclone expand always seemed to be the best opening vs any kind of protoss allins mostly warpprism adept. You grab expand before factory then techlab on the barrack and you lift the factory. After the factory you have the choice between going standard bio and adding 3 rax or going mech . Either way you should have from 3 to 4 cyclone before a 2 base warprism adept attack comes to your base . It depends how aware your are but the warpprism shouldn't warp more than one round of unit before getting killed by cyclones... GL | ||
Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On September 22 2015 23:13 TimeSpiral wrote: I actually don't mind the robust between Cyro and Boeh, but I do have something to add. Cyro is a long and storied member of this community, and while you may--okay, vehemently--disagree with him (as I have, on occasion), you are being unnecessarily combative, Boeh. You've been here a while too, Boeh, lurking, I guess (with such a low post count), but just make your argument, make it strong, and maybe leave the vitriol out? I suppose I feel somewhat provoked since he keeps misreading (to give him the benefit of the doubt) my '2's' as 1's, and has done so for many pages. I gave up on talking to him midway through, and then he started up again. After the 3rd post trying to say the same thing, it does become frustrating to have the same person misrepresent it in the same way and never acknowledge it. As I said in an earlier post, I actually thought he was just being a troll and I'm genuinely fascinated to know why he's been insisting that 4gate robo on 2bases is a 1 base build with 20 probes. I think that if a person follows his posts and keeps in mind that context of the topic, the way he's been posting has been rather surreal. Nothing he says makes any sense to me. Anyway, I appreciate the fair shake. Now, you called me out--implicitly--for suggesting balance ideas. I did that because the Adept is currently broken, and the question, "How to deal with Adept play in TvP" doesn't have a good answer. I think the way to deal with Adept play is to discuss the experience, and suggest balance changes for the Blizzard TL lurkers. I hope you don't refer to me with this. Of course I agree there's no good reply to the unit in TvP. It's been the same problem for an unreasonable amount of time, with very little acknowledgement from Blizzard. Being vocal about the issue is necessary. Though, I do think that the Adept's problem is also one of concept and design, I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed. Cyclone expand always seemed to be the best opening vs any kind of protoss allins mostly warpprism adept. You grab expand before factory then techlab on the barrack and you lift the factory. After the factory you have the choice between going standard bio and adding 3 rax or going mech . Either way you should have from 3 to 4 cyclone before a 2 base warprism adept attack comes to your base . No, you only have 1 Cyclone, it pops out 10-20 seconds before the attack hits. Maybe you can get more by skipping on marines? But then the Protoss player can just ignore the Cyclones and attack probes. I think there's a replay in this thread and I'm sure there are vods you can find on youtube. | ||
owlman
France58 Posts
No, you only have 1 Cyclone, it pops out 10-20 seconds before the attack hits. Maybe you can get more by skipping on marines? But then the Protoss player can just ignore the Cyclones and attack probes. I think there's a replay in this thread and I'm sure there are vods you can find on youtube i'm talking about a cyclone expand not a mass marine into cyclones Your 3 rd cyclone pop at around 4 min and you should have 3 barracks pumping marines ready. It works perfectly | ||
Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On September 23 2015 04:09 owlman wrote: i'm talking about a cyclone expand not a mass marine into cyclones Your 3 rd cyclone pop at around 4 min and you should have 3 barracks pumping marines ready. It works perfectly So, 1 rax > expo > factory > 2 more rax? What's the total unit count? | ||
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On September 23 2015 03:31 Bohemond wrote: I suppose I feel somewhat provoked since he keeps misreading (to give him the benefit of the doubt) my '2's' as 1's, and has done so for many pages. I gave up on talking to him midway through, and then he started up again. After the 3rd post trying to say the same thing, it does become frustrating to have the same person misrepresent it in the same way and never acknowledge it. As I said in an earlier post, I actually thought he was just being a troll and I'm genuinely fascinated to know why he's been insisting that 4gate robo on 2bases is a 1 base build with 20 probes. I think that if a person follows his posts and keeps in mind that context of the topic, the way he's been posting has been rather surreal. Nothing he says makes any sense to me. Anyway, I appreciate the fair shake. I hope you don't refer to me with this. Of course I agree there's no good reply to the unit in TvP. It's been the same problem for an unreasonable amount of time, with very little acknowledgement from Blizzard. Being vocal about the issue is necessary. Though, I do think that the Adept's problem is also one of concept and design, I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed. No, you only have 1 Cyclone, it pops out 10-20 seconds before the attack hits. Maybe you can get more by skipping on marines? But then the Protoss player can just ignore the Cyclones and attack probes. I think there's a replay in this thread and I'm sure there are vods you can find on youtube. I was referring to you, but it's possible I just misread. It seemed to me like you disliked that people were discussing balance ideas in this thread. My personal opinion is that balance tweaking is the only reasonable answer to this unit, right now. On September 23 2015 04:09 owlman wrote: i'm talking about a cyclone expand not a mass marine into cyclones Your 3 rd cyclone pop at around 4 min and you should have 3 barracks pumping marines ready. It works perfectly ^ This is interesting. We should all try it. Also, 1-base Ghost w/ cloak punishes early-game Adept play. It is very easy for the Protoss to scout this though (unless you delay it slightly, and build a second rax), but you may find that some Protoss just fall apart under the pressure. If you've never done the build, it looks something like this: - gas first - rax - second gas - orbital and tech lab - ghost academy (research cloak immediately) - build non-stop Ghosts - send first two to Protoss base, rally third two mineral line - save scans Basic concept: Ghosts fair well against Adepts head-to-head (they fucking better, lol). Cloak at the last possible minute and infiltrate the Protoss base. Focus only on sniping probes. Pay attention to their detection capabilities. If their robo is producing, get ready to scan and snipe the observer. By the time the observer pops you should have two-three Ghosts in their base. You will take the observer down very quickly. If they build an oracle, sac one of your Ghosts for an EMP, so it can't use envision. If they proxy the Stargate, and try to counter attack your mineral line, your third Ghost is waiting with an EMP. It is a micro-intensive strat intended to do game-ending damage. The game usually just ends because you kill every single probe they have. If they stay in the game, skip a round of Ghosts, drop one mule, and build a CC. They literally cannot kill you without detection, and Ghosts can snipe or EMP both forms of mobile detection, and their unit count is so low that one bunker and you're super safe. Build a few more rounds of units, attack and win (that's if they don't leave, which they always do). Like most cheese plays, if they stop you easily (this play is easy to stop, actually), and they have a Nexus, you're super dead. Just GG. | ||
Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On September 23 2015 04:25 TimeSpiral wrote: I was referring to you, but it's possible I just misread. It seemed to me like you disliked that people were discussing balance ideas in this thread. My personal opinion is that balance tweaking is the only reasonable answer to this unit, right now. Nah, I think you misread or I mistyped. And, yeah, that Cyclone expand build sounds interesting. 7 pages of posts until someone suggesting something actually suggests something reasonable. It'll hold off Oracles as well. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20246 Posts
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On September 23 2015 09:40 Cyro wrote: Because cyclone just got a huge buff Dude, really? I had no idea, thanks! My offer from the other thread still stands, btw. Regarding rushing out Cyclones. It seems okay to me as far as not dying instantly. But does anyone have any thoughts on transitions or putting on pressure. I still feel like it's pigeon holing into 1 blind build where you just sit back and hope your not getting out macro'd. | ||
StaN.de
Germany50 Posts
They are literally so OP right now that a hotfix should have been considered weeks ago, I really really don't get it. The entire XvsP-beta is totally biased by adepts and therefore we don't get reliable design/balance information at all. And I am not (or not only) talking about specific warpprism all-in builds, I am talking about every protoss army composition that has Adepts in it. Sorry for being slightly mad here, but this is what you become when you play the beta as a terran player on a dialy basis | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20246 Posts
I'm not sure of the best fix but anti light damage starting off lower and getting +2 per upgrade would probably be good; it's more of a thing in early game (1-2 base) PvT games than any other matchup. That would make it take 1.5x longer for them to kill scv's and marines but leave probes, drones, zerglings and some other important units taking the same amount of hits; i don't feel that the interaction with speedlings is bad in the general harass cases as without a warp prism it's easily taken care of by the zerg, the WP is the problem in that matchup. I'd also rather have a different upgrade to +shields on council, it's a bit weird and also contributes to the overwhelming strengh of terran once they do get a blob up with some medivacs and ghosts and you can no longer build adepts and trade well enough to stay in the game Adepts in low numbers stand out as doing pretty high damage but if you have 12 or 20 of them with the upgrade they stand around tickling a lot of stuff but taking ages to die in all 3 matchups. They also start off strong and get weaker because their damage is very stagnant while zerg gets some very hard hitters (such as ravager, lurker) capable of decimating armies, terran gets stim+EMP and adepts kinda just get more health and shuffle around behind eachother trying to get into range. | ||
StaN.de
Germany50 Posts
On September 23 2015 18:41 Cyro wrote: Adepts are seen in a disproportionate amount of games because they're strongest in low numbers so every game can (and probably will) have them (which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, pretty much every HOTS every game has Stalkers and Zerglings in the early game). I agree. I really love the idea that Protoss gets a "solid core unit". It makes the game more stable and the race less tricky/gimmicky. On September 23 2015 18:41 Cyro wrote: I'm not sure of the best fix but anti light damage starting off lower and getting +2 per upgrade would probably be good; it's more of a thing in early game (1-2 base) PvT games than any other matchup. That would make it take 1.5x longer for them to kill scv's and marines but leave probes, drones, zerglings and some other important units taking the same amount of hits; A good start, but definitely not enough. Adepts with these changes will still be better as Zealots in almost all cases. Their stats (HP, Damage etc.) and their ability are simply way too good for the relatively low costs. And there will still be the problem that Adepts are "badly" designed, as they are replacing the Zealot as a meatshield and mid-lategame harass unit. I would love to see a significant HP/Shield reduction AND a damage change (esp. vs light units). The Warpprism should be addressed as well. The incredible short warpin time of 2 seconds and the insane large pickup radius have to be considered as a JOKE. By the way: Please don't suggest to buff the zealot instead to make them used again. The Zealot is and was allways fine and appropriate for it's costs. We simply don't see Zealots anymore because Adepts are way better/overpowered for comparable costs. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20246 Posts
A good start, but definitely not enough. Adepts with these changes will still be better as Zealots in almost all cases Adepts have several weaknesses and vulnerabilities that zealots don't have. Two of the easiest examples are ghosts (2/3'rds of adept health is shields while only 1/3'rd of zealot health is shields) and damaging stuff that isn't light - zealots wreck buildings, tanks, marauders etc so they're built a lot today past the early game in PvT. Changing the shields would mitigate the first one there but adepts would still do bad damage against non-light. By the way: Please don't suggest to buff the zealot instead to make them used again. The Zealot is and was allways fine and appropriate for it's costs. Zealots got hugely buffed in Legacy. I didn't realize how much until i was playing pvp and warped in 3 zealots to defend against 3 enemy zealots. I had +2 attack and he was 0/0 - but he had charge and he won the fight. Zealots are still used quite a bit, just not in the early game. The balance has been tipped so that you're more likely to build adepts or zealots rather than stalkers now, though part of that (as i have said before) is because stalkers are kinda bad even in HOTS against some things and any unit that's even decent at those things would sometimes be built as an alternative. | ||
CheddarToss
534 Posts
On September 23 2015 19:09 StaN.de wrote: I agree. I really love the idea that Protoss gets a "solid core unit". It makes the game more stable and the race less tricky/gimmicky. A good start, but definitely not enough. Adepts with these changes will still be better as Zealots in almost all cases. Their stats (HP, Damage etc.) and their ability are simply way too good for the relatively low costs. And there will still be the problem that Adepts are "badly" designed, as they are replacing the Zealot as a meatshield and mid-lategame harass unit. I would love to see a significant HP/Shield reduction AND a damage change (esp. vs light units). The Warpprism should be addressed as well. The incredible short warpin time of 2 seconds and the insane large pickup radius have to be considered as a JOKE. By the way: Please don't suggest to buff the zealot instead to make them used again. The Zealot is and was allways fine and appropriate for it's costs. We simply don't see Zealots anymore because Adepts are way better/overpowered for comparable costs. You sound like someone who would like Protoss to be deleted from the game, given how you see imbalance in almost everything Protoss has. Try playing Protoss a bit and what you'll see is this: 1) Zealots are not fine for the cost. Only someone who is biased against Protoss can say something like that. The longer the game goes on, the harder and harder they get wrecked by mineral only units of Z/T. The "on impact damage" should be looked at. 30 was way too high, 8 is definitely too low. 2) Adepts better than Zealots? Of course, right now there is hardly any Protoss unit that is worse than the Zealot. This is why they are so under represented in PvP. 3) You can't reduce Adept's damage and also nerf it's HP/shields. As a core unit it has to be viable throughout the game. So either nerf damage or nerf HP but increase damage in mid game (upgrade). 4) The WP pick up is not the problem, it is the fast warpin. Pickup radius should be large, otherwise WP would not be effective enough in LotV. There are now new tools for every race, which make this a necessity. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20246 Posts
1) Zealots are not fine for the cost. Only someone who is biased against Protoss can say something like that. The longer the game goes on, the harder and harder they get wrecked by mineral only units of Z/T. The "on impact damage" should be looked at. 30 was way too high, 8 is definitely too low. It is a problem of scaling as zealots are melee units. I'd actually like to see a size reduction or small splash damage component to them; that would have no effect at all to engagements with small amounts of units but make them scale better. Other stuff could be tuned accordingly. 3) You can't reduce Adept's damage and also nerf it's HP/shields. As a core unit it has to be viable throughout the game. So either nerf damage or nerf HP but increase damage in mid game (upgrade). I agree, it's clearly very strong vs low numbers of units but it's also fairly useless later in the game if terran has a bio blob with some medivacs and ghosts. A couple EMP's and you'll lose your whole army while killing a small fraction of his (because of not being able to overwhelm medivacs, do any real burst damage and no longer living for any length of time with no shields). It falls off a lot when protoss is capable of making big/tech armies too; other units stand up to them better and disruptors do huge damage - i'm fairly sure they can oneshot huge clumps of adepts and that + adepts not fighting well in huge armies makes them worth building less as the game goes on. 4) The WP pick up is not the problem, it is the fast warpin. Pickup radius should be large, otherwise WP would not be effective enough in LotV. There are now new tools for every race, which make this a necessity. I think the current values are silly but 0 range isn't nearly as fun or skill based to play with. HOTS warp-in time was about 3.8 real seconds; i'd like to see 3 range and 5 seconds as actual sane and fun values rather than keeping the current stuff for 2 months and then deciding fuck it revert to HOTS like blizzard tends to do sometimes. | ||
owlman
France58 Posts
They played marine few marauder and medivac all games long, almost no mine and they didn't used any new lotv unit or buffed unit. The adept is supposed to be counter to marine so the loss seems reasonnable. Like i said earlier Cyclone opening is the answer to adept timing and overall cyclone is an extremly strong unit in TvP cos it can beat any protoss unit while beeing cost effectiv. (assuming the T abuse cyclone range) You might see this build as a pigeonhole but it was kinda the same with reaper expand in HOTS but cyclone expand is versatile cos you can defend any timing and cyclone are good harassing tools aswell. All the suggestions about nerfing adept are too harsh. Currently adept DPS vs non light is abyssal and even vs Light the dps isn't that strong (10) and weaker than a zealot. What adept need is either nerfing HP or putting shade on upgrd. The shield upgrd is bad design aswell it should be adressed and replaced by some DPS upgrd ( + shade or hp if nerfed previously) | ||
BiiG-Fr
Canada109 Posts
Just as a reminder, P build is Gate core expand into Robo + 3 gates or nexus first into gate, core, robo then 3 gates. Then drop in T base with 4 adept around 4:30 | ||
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