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On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken. Add to that +2/+2 upgrade scaling and they retain usefulness throughout the game and stop sucking in the late game.
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On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken.
'If it's really that broken?'
I thought it wasn't broken and you had proof in the form of a VOD? I thought you knew of a pro game where it was perfectly defended. I thought rushing out a Viking that can't kill a Warp Prism before it unloads and warps in units was the solution!
What changed man? Don't wuss out on me now! Stand up for what you know is true! (Or suggest a solution that everyone knows isn't viable, then claim the attack was defended in a game where the attack never occurred, and then ignore the person who pointed it out.)
This is all great except for where I refer you to a game in which the Terran defended it perfectly and won very convincingly.
You even called me out for ignoring your point, man, don't ignore my reply to that! Where is your honor?!?!?!?! Did you reference the wrong game by mistake? Did you lie on purpose hoping no one would check? Did you mistake Protoss macro play for an Adept all-in? Did you mistake the Terran widow mine drop for an Adept drop? I'm living in suspense here! I can't take it!
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken.
It's not though, if anything the WP pickup range is
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DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it.
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On September 22 2015 07:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken. It's not though, if anything the WP pickup range is
You don't even know the builds. You talk nonsense about 2gate robo and 1 base all-ins, which have nothing to do with the build that's a problem for Terran players. You claimed the Terran player could have a medivac out and a bunch of other ignorant junk.
The Protoss build in question has been stated several times in this thread. What do you suggest the Terran player to do counter it? You have yet to suggest any type of useful anything. You merely repeat over and over that the Terran player can hold. The closest you came to a suggested build is when you said something out the Terran player getting a 'dropship,' which can't be done in time unless you skip out on marine/marauder production which, obviously, isn't the answer.
Either suggest an actual build + composition for the Terran player or admit your ignorance. The most stuff the Terran can have is either
1) 12ish Marines, 3-4 Marauders - Not enough stuff, Protoss target fires the marines and SCVs while ignoring the Marauders since they don't do enough damage, and either cripples the Terran econ or outright wins.
2) 14ish Marines, 1 Cyclone - If scouted early enough the Cyclone can kill the Prism after the recent patch. But it's very dicey since you have to react instantly and have the Cyclone in position. Obviously, this just isn't possible on a large number of maps.
And no one in this thread claiming this attack can be held has even bothered to try and address the fact that the Terran player can't know if the attack is coming because the Terran play cannot scout effectively. Forcing the Terran into at best one or two builds every single game, assuming the attack could even be held, which it can't.
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On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it. I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all
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When I realise there is probably just a bit more than one month of beta left... Is it conceivable to have two patches a week until beta goes down to prepare release ?
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
You don't even know the builds. You talk nonsense about 2gate robo and 1 base all-ins, which have nothing to do with the build that's a problem for Terran players. You claimed the Terran player could have a medivac out and a bunch of other ignorant junk.
Man go back and read the posts. I was talking about adept harass (with wp) and how protoss would typically do it from 2 gates. I said "dropship", not medivac, referencing the warp prism. You're confusing so much stuff up and getting mad over nothing.
If you want to discuss a specific all in involving an adept and prism you can, just don't mix it up with the standard adept harass openings or discussion from other people relating to that. We were not talking about proxying a robo and building 4-5 gates on a 20 probe economy.
address the fact that the Terran player can't know if the attack is coming because the Terran play cannot scout effectively
I've never seen the all in before (need to watch the rep you posted) so i can't comment yet other than terran can easily scout standard adept harass openings. Crazy all-ins are another matter but you have free reign in his base until 40 seconds after the timing for a 2gate opening so you can rule that out for sure and you have scans if he's really going that hard (proxy robo, 4-5 gates, few probes). You have to understand that terran has the best early game scouting of any race in the game so that's not likely to be a big problem unless the all-in is ridiculously powerful and not even semi-reasonably stoppable
If that was the case i do wonder why i have not seen it in the last 20 pvt tournament games as money is on the line and it would have been a free win.
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On September 22 2015 07:53 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it. I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all
Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game.
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself.
Just open 2gate before cyber (gateway build time is longer than cyber core) and grab a mothership core after 2 or 4 adepts if it's an issue for you. Watch his gate counts and chrono usages until 5-15 seconds after the cyber finishes
losing to a lot of stuff myself, adepts before warpgate timing is not one of them
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On September 22 2015 07:59 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +You don't even know the builds. You talk nonsense about 2gate robo and 1 base all-ins, which have nothing to do with the build that's a problem for Terran players. You claimed the Terran player could have a medivac out and a bunch of other ignorant junk. Man go back and read the posts. I was talking about adept harass (with wp) and how protoss would typically do it from 2 gates. I said "dropship", not medivac, referencing the warp prism. You're confusing so much stuff up and getting mad over nothing. If you want to discuss a specific all in involving an adept and prism you can, just don't mix it up with the standard adept harass openings or discussion from other people relating to that. We were not talking about proxying a robo and building 4-5 gates on a 20 probe economy. Show nested quote +address the fact that the Terran player can't know if the attack is coming because the Terran play cannot scout effectively I've never seen the all in before (need to watch the rep you posted) so i can't comment yet other than terran can easily scout standard adept harass openings. Crazy all-ins are another matter but you have free reign in his base until 40 seconds after the timing for a 2gate opening so you can rule that out for sure and you have scans if he's really going that hard (proxy robo, 4-5 gates, few probes)
Read the original post of this thread
No one except you has ever talked about 2gate builds in this thread. No one has brought up 'adept harass' except you. No one cares about 2gate builds. They are not the problem. Why are you bringing up 2gate builds?
If you want to discuss a specific all in involving an adept and prism you can, just don't mix it up with the standard adept harass openings or discussion from other people relating to that. We were not talking about proxying a robo and building 4-5 gates on a 20 probe economy.
Yes we were talking about building 4 gates, the proxy is optional, especially if close by air. That is all this has ever been about. I said that the all-in build can't be held. You said it could and the problem is the prism not the adepts. I responded asking you what build a Terran can use to defend against the all-in and you start talking about 2gate builds.
The 4gate robo build in question is done on 2 base with a healthy probe count. You have no idea what the build is.
I've never seen the all in before
Read that. You just wrote that. Read it again. You've never seen the build before? I've been trying to tell you that since yesterday. Holy balls, progress. You have no idea what you're talking about. Read this, okay?
On September 21 2015 03:53 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +The Prism/Adept attack cannot be held without rushing out a Cyclone, and even then it's dicey. That's not true and if it was, it would be a prism problem, not adept problem. Prism 6 range pickup and 2 sec warp are too powerful together.
I've never seen the all in before
How do you know what I said isn't true if you've never even seen it before by your own admission?
Why even bother chiming in to a discussion about a build you've never even seen? The problem is that there is no way to effectively hold off the attack, since the Terran player cannot build enough units in time. Except with one build that only works if you get lucky.
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
I responded asking you what build a Terran can use to defend against the all-in
I didn't respond to that specifically and the convo (when i say "we") isn't about you and me specifically when there are like 5 people posting. It's a discussion about balance, not an argument to be won
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On September 22 2015 08:03 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 07:53 ROOTFayth wrote:On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it. I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game.
If they keep the pylon overcharge, there's no reason for armored adepts for PvP at least. I think the pylon charge pretty much solves the adept issue, with 2-3 pylons on your mineral line if they shade in there they pretty much lose them for free and you get a big advantage. I see a lot more people opening the double stalker first now, it's better for pressure and proxies.
And you probably should be able to FF the shades too, which would even further solidifies it.
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On September 22 2015 08:22 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +I responded asking you what build a Terran can use to defend against the all-in I didn't respond to that specifically and the convo (when i say "we") isn't about you and me specifically when there are like 5 people posting. It's a discussion about balance, not an argument to be won
No one in this thread other than you has at any point claimed there to be a balance issue regarding 2gate robo builds.
The OP is about the 4gate robo. I was posting about the 4gate robo. You told me I was wrong about the 4gate robo and then just now said you don't know what the build is.
Just admit you misunderstood and move on and stop making posts like this:
On September 22 2015 07:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken. It's not though, if anything the WP pickup range is
When it is clear that there is a problem beyond the Warp Prism as has been explained by several people several times in this thread and has been talked to death elsewhere.
I didn't respond to that specifically
I said it couldn't be held, you said what I said isn't true. I have the quote of you saying that in my previous post. I asked with what build can the attack be held. If this is supposed to be a discussion and not an argument to be won, please answer my question from the other day.
You've said multiple times that the attack can be held, and I've asked how many times. I'm asking again, how do you hold the attack?
That's the question the OP asked. That's the question I'm asking. And it's a question MorroW has asked many times. You've said the attack can be held, now please enlighten us. The question of how to hold the 4gate robo build is the topic of this entire thread.
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
On September 22 2015 08:29 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 08:03 Tiaraju9 wrote:On September 22 2015 07:53 ROOTFayth wrote:On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it. I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game. If they keep the pylon overcharge, there's no reason for armored adepts for PvP at least. I think the pylon charge pretty much solves the adept issue, with 2-3 pylons on your mineral line if they shade in there they pretty much lose them for free and you get a big advantage. I see a lot more people opening the double stalker first now, it's better for pressure and proxies. And you probably should be able to FF the shades too, which would even further solidifies it.
I agree, had some people send the first few pairs of adepts in, sac them and end up losing 4 adepts for 3 probes. Then you have 6 units vs 2 before warpgate is done
Because of the scan range change, stalkers can actually attack adepts and fall back and then attack again and the adept will never be able to fire, you can do this even with small numbers of both units. It's literally impossible for me to test on the beta though because i have a 170 ping to the only beta server and there's an extra delay added on that by sc2 engine, giving me a quarter second lag on unit commands (which breaks stalker vs adept and phoenix vs muta)
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On September 22 2015 08:32 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 08:29 Beliskner wrote:On September 22 2015 08:03 Tiaraju9 wrote:On September 22 2015 07:53 ROOTFayth wrote:On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it. I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game. If they keep the pylon overcharge, there's no reason for armored adepts for PvP at least. I think the pylon charge pretty much solves the adept issue, with 2-3 pylons on your mineral line if they shade in there they pretty much lose them for free and you get a big advantage. I see a lot more people opening the double stalker first now, it's better for pressure and proxies. And you probably should be able to FF the shades too, which would even further solidifies it. I agree, had some people send the first few pairs of adepts in, sac them and end up losing 4 adepts for 3 probes. Then you have 6 units vs 2 before warpgate is done Because of the scan range change, stalkers can actually attack adepts and fall back and then attack again and the adept will never be able to fire, you can do this even with small numbers of both units. It's literally impossible for me to test on the beta though because i have a 170 ping to the only beta server and there's an extra delay added on that by sc2 engine, giving me a quarter second lag on unit commands (which breaks stalker vs adept and phoenix vs muta) Don't adepts have this nice thing called a shade that allows them to run past stalkers?
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
On September 22 2015 08:39 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 08:32 Cyro wrote:On September 22 2015 08:29 Beliskner wrote:On September 22 2015 08:03 Tiaraju9 wrote:On September 22 2015 07:53 ROOTFayth wrote:On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it. I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game. If they keep the pylon overcharge, there's no reason for armored adepts for PvP at least. I think the pylon charge pretty much solves the adept issue, with 2-3 pylons on your mineral line if they shade in there they pretty much lose them for free and you get a big advantage. I see a lot more people opening the double stalker first now, it's better for pressure and proxies. And you probably should be able to FF the shades too, which would even further solidifies it. I agree, had some people send the first few pairs of adepts in, sac them and end up losing 4 adepts for 3 probes. Then you have 6 units vs 2 before warpgate is done Because of the scan range change, stalkers can actually attack adepts and fall back and then attack again and the adept will never be able to fire, you can do this even with small numbers of both units. It's literally impossible for me to test on the beta though because i have a 170 ping to the only beta server and there's an extra delay added on that by sc2 engine, giving me a quarter second lag on unit commands (which breaks stalker vs adept and phoenix vs muta) Don't adepts have this nice thing called a shade that allows them to run past stalkers?
Sure but
1; useless offensively when the stalkers are stood in the mineral line next to 2 pylons, a MSC and a bunch of probes, you have no way to deal damage
2; using shade offensively to commit to a fight early game is a pretty bad idea unless your army is stronger. Stalker can still micro back and run faster if you do that; you're the one that can't retreat.
3; vulnerable to poking as you can't shoot back. Been in the situation a bunch of times where i have 5 adepts and a guy has 4 stalkers and there's the choice of either waste MSC energy or let him fire for free on adepts/probes. If you stnad there he'll shoot you, if you run at him then he'll kite and never take a hit and if you run away, he'll attack your other stuff. If you mix in stalkers and have way less stalkers than him, you're still vulnerable
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It's really sad how players how many players have posted comments in this thread, started by a guy asking for help, saying what he's asking help dealing with can be dealt with and yet have never bothered to explain how. They just derail the thread into talks about balance (after saying the they're a solution they're aware of, but never sharing it) and random discussions about PvP in a thread called 'TvP Adept Play.'
Imagine, if during the HotS beta for the week the Reaper had been given HP regen and LoS up cliffs but still had +damage to light, some poor Protoss player had posted on the forums asking 'How to survive Reapers in TvP,' only to be greeted with a horde of Terran players saying 'It's no big deal man, just like, build units. It's no big deal at all. What? You're asking for an actual build suggestion? Well, I'm not going to tell you. But it's no big deal trust me. Now, let's talk about TvT.'
All these guys just want their cheap ladder wins and don't care about what good for the game. They'd rather grab a few free wins in the beta and tell other players that their experience isn't true and that they can totally hold an attack that they're saying they can't hold without ever suggesting how to hold it. Because some ez winz in a beta mean more to them then the good of the game.
You know what? Your feedback matters, especially in beta. This Adept/Prism has been in the game for patch after patch. If no one complains, it won't be dealt with quickly. And the longer it takes to be dealt with, the less time there will be to fine tune whatever changes need to happen.
A single post here on TL a while back got the ball rolling on a bunch of changes that ended up having a huge impact on SC2. It probably helped save some players careers. Imagine if everyone in the community were like Dino or Cyro instead of theDWF, and had the attitude of 'I don't know what the build your referring to is, I've never even seen it before, but I know more about it than you do.'
What would we have? We'd have 2011 Reaper play every single TvZ and 1-1-1 killing Protoss players left and right. You guys just want cheap wins, not great games. If you wanted more than that, before posting in a threat by a guy asking for help, just to tell him he doesn't need help, you might look into the situation, even a little. But no, we have a guy claiming he has a VoD of a defense, that turns out to be a VoD of a game without the build in question even being used and another guy that comes out with this kinda of junk:
On September 21 2015 03:53 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +The Prism/Adept attack cannot be held without rushing out a Cyclone, and even then it's dicey. That's not true
And then:
I've never seen the all in before
How does he know if my statement isn't true, if he's never seen the build before by his own admission?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit He just doesn't care. He just want things his way, and to hell with 1/3rd of the player base and to hell with good games for viewers. If he likes a unit, even if it breaks the game, he wants it to stay. He won't even bother watching a vod, he just covers his eyes and ears and repeats over and over that there's no problem.
That's the kind of attitude that helped keep BL/Infestor around.
And then there are guys suggesting you build bunkers blindly throughout your base. I don't even know what that's about...
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
He was not talking about your crazy 1 base adept all in with proxied robo.
Protoss can just go fast expand so safely to get the economic lead.
I'm in LOTV beta at high platinum
You brought up an entirely different game situation - seriously, you have the next level BS here. You're not in the thread to help the OP; you're here to complain about a specific opening that's similar in looks but not at all the same to what OP is asking for and make balance comments about how your all in can't be held, terran can't scout etc at pro level. An eco build with 2gates, a nexus and a robo at home doesn't play out anything like a 1 base adept all in with a proxy robo and i never gave comments or sought to give comments about that because it's not what was in discussion (from the OP or other posters) or relevant at all until you brought it up afterwards.
I have given some advice for the situation that OP was in (going back several pages), as have several others - you just sit around and constantly attack people, completely misinterpreting posts to do so if you have nothing to use. It's pretty much impossible to respond to you or anyone else here without saying something that will get an angry post from you, nobody else is arguing here.
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On September 22 2015 15:56 Cyro wrote:He was not talking about your crazy 1 base adept all in with proxied robo. You brought up an entirely different game situation - seriously, you have the next level BS here. You're not in the thread to help the OP; you're here to complain about a specific opening that's similar but not at all the same to what OP is asking for and make balance comments about how your all in can't be held, terran can't scout etc at pro level. I have given advice for the situation that OP was in, as have several others - you just sit around and constantly attack people. It's pretty much impossible to respond without saying something that you will attack in turn which is why i sat out of the thread for a while in the first place.
Why do you think I'm talking about a 1 base build? I am not talking about a 1 base build, I've never said 1 base. As said by me and others here, the build is on 2 bases, with 4gates and 1robo (proxy optional) and hits with 8 Adepts at around a little after 4:00 to 4:30. That is the build that people are upset about. That is the build that MorroW says can't be beat.
Here's a link to the 4th page of this thread where this was all made very clear: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/495123-tvp-adept-play?page=4
I have just gone over all your posts and I have seen no suggestions or advice from you on how a Terran player can defend this attack. Only vague statements about how it can be stopped, but no actual suggestion. Perhaps I am mistaken? Since I seem to have missed something, please quote the post where you have a suggestion. If I am wrong about this, I will acknowledge it.
You might have noticed that CheddarToss and I had a fine conversation and found plenty of common ground. My frustration with you is that you repeat the same statements over and over without answering any questions and talk about builds other than one in question.
I try to be very straight and to the point and acknowledge things head on. If I am mistaken about anything in this post, I believe it is all clearly formatted and unambiguous enough that you may easily demonstrate it.
EDIT: You seem to have edited your post since I quoted you and added some detail. Once again, I am confused beyond words at your continued talk about 2gate builds and 1 base builds. What has lead you to believe that these are under discussion? I'm sure a 2gate robo build is an excellent build to go into the mid-game with. But once again, it is the 2 base, 4 gate build described numerous times in this thread that has been giving Terran players grief for many patches now.
You also talk about me bring up different game situations and BSing. I have been talking about a 2 base, 4 gate robo build from the very beginning. The build is well known, and what I always assumed was under discussion. As I've said before, I don't think I've seen anyone else in this thread talk about 1 base builds, or 2gate builds. I've never had any desire to talk about those builds and wish you'd stop bringing them up.
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