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On September 21 2015 09:59 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +Haha, it's not 'blindly'. And it's not 'throughout' your base. Plus bunkers are like 100minerals, which are salvageable. In a game with competent players, an investment of 200 minerals + mining time on 2 SCVs for two bunkers near your mineral lines puts you very far behind. And it is blindly, since there is no way to scout the Protoss after the Adept comes out.
Honestly, that math doesn't really add up. The only thing that adepts can kill is SCV's or marines. If you protect your mineral lines and your marines with bunkers. If you play patiently, pull scv's away from adepts. 2 bunkers that can be salvaged will bring you out ahead. Adepts aren't free. If you're trying to tech while holding this it's probably not going to work out.
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On September 21 2015 10:12 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 09:59 Bohemond wrote:Haha, it's not 'blindly'. And it's not 'throughout' your base. Plus bunkers are like 100minerals, which are salvageable. In a game with competent players, an investment of 200 minerals + mining time on 2 SCVs for two bunkers near your mineral lines puts you very far behind. And it is blindly, since there is no way to scout the Protoss after the Adept comes out. Honestly, that math doesn't really add up. The only thing that adepts can kill is SCV's or marines. If you protect your mineral lines and your marines with bunkers. If you play patiently, pull scv's away from adepts. 2 bunkers that can be salvaged will bring you out ahead. Adepts aren't free. If you're trying to tech while holding this it's probably not going to work out.
Watch a replay or a stream, play a game yourself. You clearly have no idea what the issues are. The number of things I can think of that the Protoss can abuse here just off the top of my head is huge, and I'm not even a good player. Remember, the Protoss doesn't have to warp in Adepts, and the 4gate build isn't all-in, and the Terran player cannot scout effectively, so for all he knows the Protoss is teching up on 2 base, getting ready for a nice macro game, and never had any intention of cheesing.
Just think, you make a wall-in at your main ramp, a wall-in at the natural with a bunker, 2 more bunkers in your mineral line, and then a few stalkers start picking away at your depot walls. You pull your marauders and a few marines to the front to stop it, and boom Prism warping in at the mineral line.
Also, what about the math doesn't add up? The bunkers cost 100 each, just because they can be salvaged later doesn't mean you weren't put 200 minerals behind when you build them...
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On September 21 2015 10:11 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 10:03 CheddarToss wrote: Bohemond I've edited my previous post. I think this whole misunderstanding comes from Protoss players watching Protoss streams. Good Protoss players like MC and HuK aren't going to bother doing a free win, cheese build like the one in question every single game. So, if you watch a Protoss stream you see a variety of builds, maybe with this one mixed in occasionally, maybe not. If you watch a Terran stream, you'll see this type of junk going on constantly, and the Terran will explain what's going on in a lot of detail. It didn't occur to me that this might be the cause of the issue until your comment about watching MC. EDIT: I don't think the Adept should get 'nerfed' either. I think it should be removed and replaced with a Zealot buff, maybe a Stalker buff as well, though that'll be hard to balance. There just isn't a reason for the thing to exist. But, if it's going to be shoved down everyone's throats like Blizzard is probably going to do, it should be a unit that can scale into the mid/late game. There are tons of great suggestions on how to do this, so I'm betting we won't see any of them. Well DK never mentioned the Adept as one of the problematic units. And given how prideful the design and balancing team has been all these years, I think it is safe to assume that the Adept is here to stay. Therefore the best we can hope for is an early game nerf to the Adept and appropriate buffs to gateway units in the mid/late game. Like you, I didn't like the Adept at first. But it has started to grow on me. It truly is a unit with a very high skill ceiling and the addition to the gateway force, which Protoss have needed all this time. Remember, without the Adept, it is not possible to cure the Protoss deathball syndrome.
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I think what they need to do is nerf the 2 second warpin on the warp prism back to like 4 seconds or so and buff the regular warpin from a pylon up a bit. Maybe like 10 seconds?
The pickup range + almost instant warpins on the Warp Prism make that adept play really strong early vs Terran. But I think the adept itself is not a god mode unit like some people in this thread are saying.
EDIT- maybe the pickup range can be a very short upgrade at the facility or something.
Early game it's definitely a bit strong... Mass Stalker/Adept and just Blink into their base then use the warp prism to "blink" back the hurt units.
I honestly haven't lost with this strategy.
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But if they do this, they'll have to buff Protoss's mid-late game because it's just too weak. Disruptors are not good vs good players.
Right now I'm finding all my games as P to be "do a ton of harass damage early or lose slowly."
I don't like that.
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Worth noting in all this balance discussion: DK has repeatedly said that they are thinking of moving Adepts to armored. Everyone saying there is no balance problem with adepts is ignoring DK's own acknowledgment that the Blizz team is working on rebalancing them. Armored adepts will be a fairly huge nerf for TvP (marauders) and will make PvP more than just adept spam (only counter to adepts was more adepts).
TLDR: you can't say that adepts are balanced when DK and blizz have acknowledged balance issues and are working on fixes for them (armored).
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On September 22 2015 03:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Worth noting in all this balance discussion: DK has repeatedly said that they are thinking of moving Adepts to armored. Everyone saying there is no balance problem with adepts is ignoring DK's own acknowledgment that the Blizz team is working on rebalancing them. Armored adepts will be a fairly huge nerf for TvP (marauders) and will make PvP more than just adept spam (only counter to adepts was more adepts).
TLDR: you can't say that adepts are balanced when DK and blizz have acknowledged balance issues and are working on fixes for them (armored).
Yes you can. The Warp Prism greatly enhances the Adept. Adepts alone are not a problem.. it's adepts + warp prism that is the issue for Terran. The Warp Prism basically ensures that they WILL get into your base, which makes walling etc. useless againt them. So they're basically guaranteed to do economic damage unless the Terran rushes out a viking or two.
The Huk/MC vs MMA/Bomber game on Terraform from the finals showed what a perfect defense looks like.
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The Warp Prism greatly enhances the Adept. Adepts alone are not a problem.. it's adepts + warp prism that is the issue for Terran.
The pickup range + almost instant warpins on the Warp Prism make that adept play really strong early vs Terran. But I think the adept itself is not a god mode unit like some people in this thread are saying.
The only kind of Warp Prism nerf that could solve the problem is a large build time increase or moving it up the tech tree.
As I, and others both here and elsewhere, have pointed out numerous times, there is no way (apart from a Cyclone rush after the recent patch) to have enough units to defend 8 Adepts without taking critical damage. 3 Marauders and 12 Marines don't do it. The cyclone only works if you scout the Prism right away and kill it quickly with lock-on + marine fire.
It's not that the Adept is some 'god mode unit' (straw man much?), it's that due to its effectiveness vs. marines and its high hp combined with how many (8) can be in your base at the 4 minute mark, the Terran player does not have enough units to defend except with one build that doesn't always work. No amount of feelings, opinions, or personal thoughts on the issue are going to change that
Adding to the problem is the fact that the Terran player cannot scout effectively and must prepare for the attack whether or not it's coming.
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On September 22 2015 03:06 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 03:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Worth noting in all this balance discussion: DK has repeatedly said that they are thinking of moving Adepts to armored. Everyone saying there is no balance problem with adepts is ignoring DK's own acknowledgment that the Blizz team is working on rebalancing them. Armored adepts will be a fairly huge nerf for TvP (marauders) and will make PvP more than just adept spam (only counter to adepts was more adepts).
TLDR: you can't say that adepts are balanced when DK and blizz have acknowledged balance issues and are working on fixes for them (armored). Yes you can. The Warp Prism greatly enhances the Adept. Adepts alone are not a problem.. it's adepts + warp prism that is the issue for Terran. The Warp Prism basically ensures that they WILL get into your base, which makes walling etc. useless againt them. So they're basically guaranteed to do economic damage unless the Terran rushes out a viking or two. The Huk/MC vs MMA/Bomber game on Terraform from the finals showed what a perfect defense looks like. No, it's not just the warp prism. With the cancelable teleport you get constant free scouts and threats the terran has to react to. And they're just super effective against bio. You see adept teleports being used to teleport right on top of a larger army supply, stimmed, medivac supported terran bioball. That's a big red flag that the stats are out of whack.
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well, in my experience
to hold with fast expands, you still need to wall off the main and add a bunker at your natural. Adding multiple barracks before higher tech is great, you can also add widowmines. This should let you hold of the initial harrass pretty well.
Arent adepts armored now? Marauders should be good?
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On September 22 2015 03:21 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +The Warp Prism greatly enhances the Adept. Adepts alone are not a problem.. it's adepts + warp prism that is the issue for Terran. Show nested quote +The pickup range + almost instant warpins on the Warp Prism make that adept play really strong early vs Terran. But I think the adept itself is not a god mode unit like some people in this thread are saying. The only kind of Warp Prism nerf that could solve the problem is a large build time increase or moving it up the tech tree. As I, and others both here and elsewhere, have pointed out numerous times, there is no way (apart from a Cyclone rush after the recent patch) to have enough units to defend 8 Adepts without taking critical damage. 3 Marauders and 12 Marines don't do it. The cyclone only works if you scout the Prism right away and kill it quickly with lock-on + marine fire. It's not that the Adept is some 'god mode unit' (straw man much?), it's that due to its effectiveness vs. marines and its high hp combined with how many (8) can be in your base at the 4 minute mark, the Terran player does not have enough units to defend except with one build that doesn't always work. No amount of feelings, opinions, or personal thoughts on the issue are going to change that Adding to the problem is the fact that the Terran player cannot scout effectively and must prepare for the attack whether or not it's coming.
This is all great except for where I refer you to a game in which the Terran defended it perfectly and won very convincingly.
Vikings may be necessary early to fend off the Warp Prism. If you wall off at your main ramp they can't get into your base any other way. And since they don't shoot up your Vikings are safe to kill the WP.
I suggested a small nerf to Warp Prism warpins because it gives T a chance to take out the WP before more adepts are warped in. But I think the problem is Terrans are trying to play to similarly to HotS. They're used to being the aggressor early vs P.
Maybe in the LotV meta, Terran has to turtle the way Protoss did vs T in WoL/HotS.
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This is all great except for where I refer you to a game in which the Terran defended it perfectly and won very convincingly.
Do you refer to the Huk/MC vs MMA/Bomber game on Terraform?
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On September 22 2015 03:30 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 03:21 Bohemond wrote:The Warp Prism greatly enhances the Adept. Adepts alone are not a problem.. it's adepts + warp prism that is the issue for Terran. The pickup range + almost instant warpins on the Warp Prism make that adept play really strong early vs Terran. But I think the adept itself is not a god mode unit like some people in this thread are saying. The only kind of Warp Prism nerf that could solve the problem is a large build time increase or moving it up the tech tree. As I, and others both here and elsewhere, have pointed out numerous times, there is no way (apart from a Cyclone rush after the recent patch) to have enough units to defend 8 Adepts without taking critical damage. 3 Marauders and 12 Marines don't do it. The cyclone only works if you scout the Prism right away and kill it quickly with lock-on + marine fire. It's not that the Adept is some 'god mode unit' (straw man much?), it's that due to its effectiveness vs. marines and its high hp combined with how many (8) can be in your base at the 4 minute mark, the Terran player does not have enough units to defend except with one build that doesn't always work. No amount of feelings, opinions, or personal thoughts on the issue are going to change that Adding to the problem is the fact that the Terran player cannot scout effectively and must prepare for the attack whether or not it's coming. This is all great except for where I refer you to a game in which the Terran defended it perfectly and won very convincingly. Vikings may be necessary early to fend off the Warp Prism. If you wall off at your main ramp they can't get into your base any other way. And since they don't shoot up your Vikings are safe to kill the WP. I suggested a small nerf to Warp Prism warpins because it gives T a chance to take out the WP before more adepts are warped in. But I think the problem is Terrans are trying to play to similarly to HotS. They're used to being the aggressor early vs P. Maybe in the LotV meta, Terran has to turtle the way Protoss did vs T in WoL/HotS.
If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that going for early vikings is one of the worst replies available. You can't afford to invest that much in tech. Unless you suggesting staying on 1 base for a long time, not scouting, and hoping the Protoss player doesn't macro?
Now, as to the game you refer me to. As you talking about the Red Bull Battle Grounds Grand Finals? This one? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_Red_Bull_Battle_Grounds:_Washington
A game where the Protoss team goes for a macro opening and then takes a bunch of damage because they have bad pylon placement in their main base?
What does that have to do with Adept all-ins in 1v1 games?
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I really don't understand what kind of Protoss players they have in their testing teams. They craft tools that clearly will make offensive strats broken and then say "hey, huge boost to the defensive case !" (talking about the 2 sec "defensive" warp time, forgetting ofc to mention it affects prisms too). The warp-in "nerf" was such an absurd boost to warp prism play... Once again, splitting energy and warp-in power would have solved the same issues without giving birth to the problems we're facing right now, but at that point they seem to love their wanky solution too much. Same with pylon overcharge btw, who thought it wouldn't be used on proxy pylons ? We should really get Has as a beta tester so that they at least try to design Protoss as a race that doesn't just rely on early game deception and shenanigans.
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The Adept is here to stay, and I like that, and am interested to see what kind of changes they settle on. It is clearly too strong a unit for when it shows up in the game. And since the thread is "Adept Play" I think it's fair to include the Warp Prism (WP) in this conversation.
TvP, Early Game - They should consider changing the bonus damage to light. 3-4 shots to kill an SCV or Marine is probably where it needs be. Especially if it is going to stay at the incredibly tanky 90 health 90 shields. Right now it takes 3 marines ten volleys of focus fire to kill one Adept. With basic Adept micro, it is basically impossible for un-stimmed marined to kill Adepts. - Marauders are currently ineffective as well, even with concussive shells. And I normally don't like doing this, but if you build marauders and an oracle flies into your base it's just game over. - Helions are ineffective because the Adept can just fight it and win. - Rushing to cyclone is bad. - Starport fairs no better versus Adepts. What, Banshees? Lulz.
The Shade Shade canceling should probably be looked at as well. Not sure what the mechanism should be here, without it getting too complicated, but maybe a threshold at the very end, where you can't cancel in the last 1 second, or whatever, and a slight delay on the cancel, so if you do initiate a cancel, a noticeable tell animates the shade. This would help prevent some of the coin-flip nonsense in Adept vs. Adept battles.
The Warp Prism I've seen a lot of people discussing this, and so far, I really like the idea of energy-based warp-ins. For one drop ship to--essentially--scale infinitely in capacity is a little much, even for Protoss.
The warp-in is too fast. Don't know what the right speed is. But it's not what it is now, lol.
The pick-range ... dear god. This is basically Blink. So now, you're in my base, with a super-fast offensive pylon, and now every unit near the WP has Blink? It's just extremely difficult to defend.
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On September 22 2015 04:25 TimeSpiral wrote: The Warp Prism I've seen a lot of people discussing this, and so far, I really like the idea of energy-based warp-ins. For one drop ship to--essentially--scale infinitely in capacity is a little much, even for Protoss.
The warp-in is too fast. Don't know what the right speed is. But it's not what it is now, lol.
The pick-range ... dear god. This is basically Blink. So now, you're in my base, with a super-fast offensive pylon, and now every unit near the WP has Blink? It's just extremely difficult to defend. Agree with everything. Energy based warp-ins would solve so much, I've been advocating for that for ages.
I'll tell you what the right speed is, it's 5 sec with energy and warp-in power split.
I won't even talk about the pick-up range, I could get rude.
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I'm strongly against nerfing pick up range and shade too much, for the simple reason that these things provide these units with a very good skill separation. A bad player can not profit from either of these, a good player will utilize them to great effect. This in my opinion is exactly what Protoss needs, more micro skill and less a-move. Nerfs should hit the a-move case, meaning that they should reduce dmg, range or the warp in time. The shade canceling with delay and animation could be good, but I can't tell w/o play testing it first. In LotV there are now many convoluted mechanics for Protoss, like the new chrono, the new warp in with separate rules, and I really don't like that. I prefer elegant solutions. Therefore I'm leaning towards straight nerfs to stats.
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On September 22 2015 04:41 CheddarToss wrote: In LotV there are now many convoluted mechanics for Protoss, like the new chrono, the new warp in with separate rules, and I really don't like that. I prefer elegant solutions. I could have written that.
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WP play with adepts is pretty dumb, they have so much HP, they are easy to drop micro, and will usually do great economic damage going for SCVS (PvT) with minimal losses due to the aforementioned points.
If Terran drop early Protoss have Pylon Overcharge, tanky units, FFs, defensive warp ins, and observers to scout incoming drops, everything is reactive and good reaction will allow the Protoss player to come out on top defending drops. If a Protoss uses a WP to drop adepts and reinforce the Terran player is forced to keep the army back in base, build bunkers for drop defense, build vikings to deal with the WP etc.
Drop harassment should be just that, harassment. It shouldn't be a game winning strategy always used just to punish the many, many mistakes a Terran player can make dealing with them. I hope this is fine tuned soon because it feels very much like Hellbat drops when they dominated every match up just because they were the most cost efficient way to win games.
The cost for P vs T in each situation allows Protoss way too much time and power in the match up. With almost guaranteed economic damage when executed correctly, there is no way for Terran to come out on top in anything beyond mid game battles after taking an econ hit. A good sized army of zealots and adepts just takes far too long to kill, regardless of what is doing damage alongside it.
It is a massive shame that there is little time left, as I really think ghost could be worked on here. Give them an ability to slow down/freeze (just some kind of CC with limited radius) and make them a decent defensive unit that isn't so awkward to get (they have no real power or purpose unless supplementing a big bio army or massed late game). I don't know though, the current TvP I have been having have been terribly boring because everyone just throws adepts at mineral lines and it is dull.
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If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken.
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