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1.) You have to produce marauders as early as possible. Figure out when is the safest you can start producing marauders and do so.
This does not work (maybe in silver league?). The Protoss player need only target fire Marines and SCVs while ignoring the Marauders and using Shade to outmaneuver the Terran army. Marauders lack the DPS needed to defend effectively and, once all the Marines are dead, there is nothing to kill the Prism.
This thread is full of people suggesting vague stuff that is known to not work and saying Adept+Prism can be held effectively without suggesting a single build order.
As for all the people suggesting that the Prism is the only problem. Imagine the Prism is nerfed and has a longer warp-in time with maybe 2-3 range on pickup. Now imagine a map with a large main/natural, 8 Shades slide into your mineral line at 4:25 and start going to town on your SCVs. Oh shit, GG. Sounds like good gameplay to me. Mapmakers need even more limitations than they have already...
Plus, there are other consequences and concerns other than the Prism. Terran has to wall off or lose now, leaving Terran vulnerable to Stalkers picking away at the wall early game. Having to prep blindly for early Adept builds also will likely leave Terran open to other all ins. Even if Blizzard does something to 'balance' this stuff, it will still be miserable to play against. Just like early Oracles and window mine drops in HotS TvP. Both are 'balanced' and you know what? I don't care, they suck to play against and they suck to watch.
The Adept is far too strong early game and falls off lategame, it overlaps with the Zealot and lacks micro potential other than BS with Shade. The unit is in a horrible place.
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
4:25 is super late for LOTV. If you're walled then you should just treat it like a hellion/mine drop (where he's either elevatoring or using multiple dropships)
Both are 'balanced' and you know what? I don't care, they suck to play against and they suck to watch.
I agree
The Adept is far too strong early game and falls off lategame, it overlaps with the Zealot and lacks micro potential other than BS with Shade. The unit is in a horrible place.
Well it's probably too late at this point to make it zealot/dragoon
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4:25 is super late for LOTV. If you're walled then you should just treat it like a hellion/mine drop (where he's either elevatoring or using multiple dropships)
There are a variety of flavors. With a proxy'd robo it can hit at around 4, but that's pretty all-in. Less all-in versions hit anywhere from 4:20-5:00. And, no you don't treat it like a hellion/mine drop, whatever that means. You either have your Cyclone kill the prism (that you hopefully scouted soon enough) and take a bunch of damage, or you went for the marauder build and after your marines are focused down and Adepts run amuck through your base denying mining and killing SCVs you lose.
If the Protoss has poor unit control/messes up or the Terran does something miraculous, sure it can be held. If the Protoss doesn't ignore the Marauders, sure it can be held. But that's all beside the point...
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If you're walled in and he made a bunch of units and a dropship at home it doesn't really matter if he's terran or protoss, you treat it very similarly. I have a ton of experience playing terrans w/ 2 gates and a robo (i don't do 1 base adept-WP all ins) and if the prism didn't have 6 range and 2 second warp the adepts themselves wouldn't be considered anywhere near as powerful
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On September 21 2015 08:46 Cyro wrote: If you're walled in and he made a bunch of units and a dropship at home it doesn't really matter if he's terran or protoss, you treat it very similarly. I have a ton of experience playing terrans w/ 2 gates and a robo (i don't do 1 base adept-WP all ins) and if the prism didn't have 6 range and 2 second warp the adepts themselves wouldn't be considered anywhere near as powerful
What dropship? There is literally no way to build a dropship in time. What the heck are you talking about? Unless your talking about the Terran player staying on 1 base, not scouting, and preping for a Protoss all-in that may or may not come. Which is not reasonable. You're saying that if the Terran player does something impossible, he can hold.
Also, why do you only have 2gates? You can have 4gates, still expand, and hit around the 4:25 mark if you proxy the robo. If you don't proxy the robo, it'll hit later of course. Though depending on the map, not that much later.
What do you mean make a bunch of units? The most the Terran player can have (unless on 1base, which clearly isn't viable to do every single game) is 10-14 marines and 3-4 marauders, assuming the Protoss hits in between the 4:00:4:30 mark. Or 14ish marines and 1 cyclone, which can hold the attack... sometimes... with good fortune.
You can go either 1rax expo, into 3rax with constant Marine/Marauder producting, get the said 10-14 marines and 3-4 marauders, and lose. Or you can go for 1rax expo, with 1 more rax and a factory for a cyclone that pops out at a little after the 4:00 mark, have 14ish marines and 1 cyclone and hold, if you're lucky.
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
What dropship? There is literally no way to build a dropship in time. What the heck are you talking about?
You're walled in and your terran/protoss opponent is building units and a dropship at home and then bringing them over to your base to bypass your wall.
Also, why do you only have 2gates? You can have 4gates, still expand
2gate-nex-robo or 2gate-robo-nex takes an economic disadvantage to an expanding terran. Four is rather all-in by comparison. Four gates and proxying the robo is approaching maximusblack levels of play
It sounds like you're actually worried about something that's pretty all-in-ish. Do you have any replay in particular for it? That's not standard adept harass nor something i personally have a lot of experience with. At the very least you can scout delayed expansion because the protoss, even with a 2gate expand (which falls behind eco terran) will want to drop nexus like 20 seconds before he has any unit to deny a worker scout (and he can't deny a scan)
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What level are you talking about Bohemond? I'm asking, because I don't see what you are describing when watching MC's stream. And MC is at the top of the GM ladder in LotV. His terran opponents hold the Adept/WP aggression more often than not. So really, you must be talking about some other push, which MC doesn't know about.
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On September 21 2015 09:06 CheddarToss wrote: What level are you talking about Bohemond? I'm asking, because I don't see what you are describing when watching MC's stream. And MC is at the top of the GM ladder in LotV. His terran opponents hold the Adept/WP aggression more often than not. So really, you must be talking about some other push, which MC doesn't know about.
What are the Terran players doing? What time is MC hitting with his attack? What's he building? I don't tune into MCs stream. I explained the Terran builds I'm aware of in my last posts, as well as the unit counts they have around 4:00-4:30ish.
Like I said earlier, the OP asks for builds/advice on how to stop Adept/Prism, and a bunch of people chime in saying it can be held suggesting builds that don't work or are impossible (like Cryo) and never give any specifics.
There are, in this case many roads leading to Rome, but the general idea is, 1gate, cybercore, expo, build 1-2 adepts pre warpgate finishing, robo (either proxy or not), drop extra gates, 3-5 more depending, attack.
From the TvPs I've watched, it doesn't seem that most pro Protoss players are doing the type of all-in I'm talking about since it's a free win and they know it'll get patched out of the game.
For example, I've yet to see HuK do it. But, of course, I don't spend 25 hours a day watching LotV steams, so maybe he does it only when he knows I'm not watching. As for level, LotV GM of course...
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The BO is gate nexus into robo + 4 gates, and it hits around 4:30, and yes you can hold it, but you are usually far behind both in eco and army.
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
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The BO is gate nexus into robo + 4 gates, and it hits around 4:30, and yes you can hold it, but you are usually far behind both in eco and army.
It's not a 'hold' in my book if you are so far behind you can't win, either to a follow up all-in or a macro game.
Any replay?
Are you a troll?
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I haven't seen MC proxy a robo yet. Maybe that's the key part, I don't know. I saw Huk do some very cheesy builds (even a one base all-in) against Morrow couple of games in a row, but Morrow was stubbornly doing a CC first in all those games. I watched both streams in parallel and people in Morrow's chat were raging like mad, while it was obvious, that such aggression can not be held with a greedy build like that.
Terran players are mostly doing 1rax expo, into 3rax, however the Protoss play you are describing doesn't seem to add up. How can a P player have a robo, a WP and up to 6 gates by the time the Terran player only has 3 rax? That doesn't seem possible.
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Bunkers behind or near the mineral lines seem to help.
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On September 21 2015 09:35 CheddarToss wrote: I haven't seen MC proxy a robo yet. Maybe that's the key part, I don't know. I saw Huk do some very cheesy builds (even a one base all-in) against Morrow couple of games in a row, but Morrow was stubbornly doing a CC first in all those games. I watched both streams in parallel and people in Morrow's chat were raging like mad, while it was obvious, that such aggression can not be held with a greedy build like that.
Terran players are mostly doing 1rax expo, into 3rax, however the Protoss play you are describing doesn't seem to add up. How can a P player have a robo, a WP and up to 6 gates by the time the Terran player only has 3 rax? That doesn't seem possible.
I said, there are a variety of things I've seen. The 4gate version hits at 4:25ish when done crisply. The 6gate version hits later, obviously. It's a delayed cheese, which as I'm sure we both know, can be even more effective at times.
On smaller maps, or with close air space, the Prism can still get to the Terran base at the 4:30 mark with the 4gate version and no proxy.
I've said before, MorroW has tried a huge number of builds. Come on, man... The things I said only don't add up if you only read want to want to read rather than what's there. I don't get how '3-5 extra' gates becomes me saying 5 extra in your mind.
Bunkers behind or near the mineral lines seem to help.
You can't blindly start building bunkers all throughout your base...
EDIT: I don't want to be rude, but I'm kinda over this. It's clear that Cryo is either a troll or doesn't speak english and Cheddar, you just don't seem to be aware of the relevant builds. You've been exceedingly civil, and I thank you for that.
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You can't blindly start building bunkers all throughout your base...
Haha, it's not 'blindly'. And it's not 'throughout' your base. Plus bunkers are like 100minerals, which are salvageable.
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I've seen the 4g version and the Terran has the unit count you've described. With the higher number of gates the push hits later and the Terran has more units. In either case up to this point I haven't observed that it is a free or auto win. Maybe it is, but it didn't look like one to me in any of the games I've seen so far.
Edit: That all being said, I'm not a "Zealot" and I'm ready to believe that the Adept is too powerful in the early game in PvT. I've already said in this and the other thread that I'm completely fine with the Adept getting nerfed, as long as it doesn't get nerfed to the ground, if it gets a buff in the late game.
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Haha, it's not 'blindly'. And it's not 'throughout' your base. Plus bunkers are like 100minerals, which are salvageable.
In a game with competent players, an investment of 200 minerals + mining time on 2 SCVs for two bunkers near your mineral lines puts you very far behind. And it is blindly, since there is no way to scout the Protoss after the Adept comes out.
I've seen the 4g version and the Terran has the unit count you've described. With the higher number of gates the push hits later and the Terran has more units. In either case up to this point I haven't observed that it is a free or auto win. Maybe it is, but it didn't look like one to me in any of the games I've seen so far.
12 Marines and 3 Marauders can't beat 8 Adepts assuming any kind of decent micro. The Protoss player casts Shade, directs them to a mineral line, and while waiting for the teleport, target fires the marines. Prism pickup micro isn't even needed.
If the Terran pulls SCVs, well, we know how that'll go.
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Bohemond I've edited my previous post.
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On September 21 2015 10:03 CheddarToss wrote: Bohemond I've edited my previous post.
I think this whole misunderstanding comes from Protoss players watching Protoss streams. Good Protoss players like MC and HuK aren't going to bother doing a free win, cheese build like the one in question every single game. So, if you watch a Protoss stream you see a variety of builds, maybe with this one mixed in occasionally, maybe not.
If you watch a Terran stream, you'll see this type of junk going on constantly, and the Terran will explain what's going on in a lot of detail.
It didn't occur to me that this might be the cause of the issue until your comment about watching MC.
EDIT: I don't think the Adept should get 'nerfed' either. I think it should be removed and replaced with a Zealot buff, maybe a Stalker buff as well, though that'll be hard to balance. There just isn't a reason for the thing to exist. But, if it's going to be shoved down everyone's throats like Blizzard is probably going to do, it should be a unit that can scale into the mid/late game. There are tons of great suggestions on how to do this, so I'm betting we won't see any of them.
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