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On September 20 2015 22:55 KT_Elwood wrote: None of you will change the stats. Most of you are completely biased.
Yes WP got buffed hard. The PickUprange even feels stupid, its almost like blink,, the offensive WarpIn is too strong. Its a 200 Mineral DoomDrop.
It will get nerfed.
Parasite Bomb, Corruptor Ground attack and Liberator are too strong too.
Maybe it's the pickup range, which is too strong, but I'm not sure. To me the 2 sec warp in with the WP feels more broken. At the time the 16 sec WG nerf was introduced and WPs given a 2 sec warp in, many people were warning that this was not a good idea. It will probably get nerfed, because w/o the option to warp in more Adepts instantly, they don't seem strong. Especially vs Zerg.
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On September 20 2015 22:43 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 22:21 brickrd wrote:On September 20 2015 20:41 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:38 mishimaBeef wrote: I think adept shield upgrade wrecks HotS-style mmm bio and terrans need to do something fresh. But Blizzard is looking into exploring the adept upgrade. the upgrade doesn't look to be the problem as much as how early it can hit with very little commitment for the P. It pidgeonholes TvP early game too much to be a sound unit. same in pvz. it's essentially the new blink sentry, a stable mass gateway style that forces a single tech route from zerg and whoever gets the macro advantage wins the fight and the game. not a matter of balance but of diversity in styles. speedling commitments are a waste, which is a real shame because even against blink sentry speedlings were relevant, and lings are an iconic part of the fast paced swarm style of zerg. i just don't understand why they're a tank. i'm fine with the idea of adepts being good harass tools, but when it's literally impossible to dps down an adept by the time two of them are in your mineral line (not to mention teleporting into it) it seems wrong that they get 3-5 guaranteed worker kills as long as they're targeted properly. the skill play in the ability is a joke right now because they have so much sustainability that it's cost effective even if you don't execute well And how is that different to a speedling runby? I've lost more probes than I care to count to speedling runbys, which also don't require skill on the Zerg player's part and do damage even if he doesn't micro the them at all. speedling runbys are hard countered by walls, don't happen at the beginning of the game (unless you do zero scouting), the lings always die, simcity and warpins can mitigate the damage (counterplay), etc. etc. zerg can't wall adepts out and physically cannot dps them down that early in the game while the damage is done, the only counter is massive drone pulls and lost mining time
you don't really seem to even understand what i'm talking about
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Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago.
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On September 20 2015 23:03 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 22:43 CheddarToss wrote:On September 20 2015 22:21 brickrd wrote:On September 20 2015 20:41 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:38 mishimaBeef wrote: I think adept shield upgrade wrecks HotS-style mmm bio and terrans need to do something fresh. But Blizzard is looking into exploring the adept upgrade. the upgrade doesn't look to be the problem as much as how early it can hit with very little commitment for the P. It pidgeonholes TvP early game too much to be a sound unit. same in pvz. it's essentially the new blink sentry, a stable mass gateway style that forces a single tech route from zerg and whoever gets the macro advantage wins the fight and the game. not a matter of balance but of diversity in styles. speedling commitments are a waste, which is a real shame because even against blink sentry speedlings were relevant, and lings are an iconic part of the fast paced swarm style of zerg. i just don't understand why they're a tank. i'm fine with the idea of adepts being good harass tools, but when it's literally impossible to dps down an adept by the time two of them are in your mineral line (not to mention teleporting into it) it seems wrong that they get 3-5 guaranteed worker kills as long as they're targeted properly. the skill play in the ability is a joke right now because they have so much sustainability that it's cost effective even if you don't execute well And how is that different to a speedling runby? I've lost more probes than I care to count to speedling runbys, which also don't require skill on the Zerg player's part and do damage even if he doesn't micro the them at all. speedling runbys are hard countered by walls, don't happen at the beginning of the game (unless you do zero scouting), the lings always die, simcity and warpins can mitigate the damage (counterplay), etc. etc. zerg can't wall adepts out and physically cannot dps them down that early in the game while the damage is done, the only counter is massive drone pulls and lost mining time you don't really seem to even understand what i'm talking about You should watch VIBE's stream. There is also counterplay to Adept harass. 3 hatch is a bit risky now, which is good. Get gas and zergling speed earlier. That shuts down Adept harass completely, as VIBE has demonstrated numerous times on his stream.
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Speaking of TLO vs Choya, for the overcharge topic (wrong thread I know) he also had a nice counter to Choya pylon overcharging his 3rd. He just counter attacked with a small force of ling roach ravager and concentrated on killing pylons at Choya's 3rd base wall. Since he had used energy and minerals attacking Zerg's 3rd, Choya's defense was poor so early in the game. It was kind of overwhelming, like I would be surprised if you can pylon overcharge a Zerg's 3rd ever after watching that.
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On September 20 2015 23:09 Blacklizard wrote: Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago. two adepts oneshot drones...
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TLO vs adepts... he is doing it again on his stream right now. I think he lost 3 workers to 4 adepts. Not bad.
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On September 20 2015 23:14 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 23:09 Blacklizard wrote: Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago. two adepts oneshot drones... This LotV, a new game. Don't expect the same greedy play to work every time. Adapt your strategy to the new game. I already told you what works at the top of the GM (VIBE). Get gas and speed and you will come out ahead.
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On September 20 2015 23:17 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 23:14 brickrd wrote:On September 20 2015 23:09 Blacklizard wrote: Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago. two adepts oneshot drones... This LotV, a new game. Don't expect the same greedy play to work every time. Adapt your strategy to the new game. I already told you what works at the top of the GM (VIBE). Get gas and speed and you will come out ahead. you're literally making shit up dude, i didn't say anything about my build lol. i'm talking about fast adept harass openers, not midgame runbys. don't use strawman arguments and put words in my mouth, it makes you seem like an inattentive conversationalist
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On September 20 2015 23:15 Blacklizard wrote: TLO vs adepts... he is doing it again on his stream right now. I think he lost 3 workers to 4 adepts. Not bad. Yeah, I'm watching it right now. TLO did a Roach/Ravager counter attack and won rather easy.
Edit: TLO won yet another game. Lost maybe a handful of drones to 4 Adepts, countered with a Roach/Ravager push and did some damage. And ended the game with a follow-up pure mass roach push.
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On September 20 2015 23:19 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 23:17 CheddarToss wrote:On September 20 2015 23:14 brickrd wrote:On September 20 2015 23:09 Blacklizard wrote: Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago. two adepts oneshot drones... This LotV, a new game. Don't expect the same greedy play to work every time. Adapt your strategy to the new game. I already told you what works at the top of the GM (VIBE). Get gas and speed and you will come out ahead. you're literally making shit up dude, i didn't say anything about my build lol. i'm talking about fast adept harass openers, not midgame runbys. don't use strawman arguments and put words in my mouth, it makes you seem like an inattentive conversationalist Whatever you say, friend. This is a game with asymmetric race design. It is hard for Blizzard to give all the races the exact same tools to work with, without the races feeling the same, but with other "skins". You will just have to deal with it, that Protoss can now pressure you early. Pro Zerg players can obviously deal with it, as demonstrated by VIBE, TLO and many other players. Copy their builds and you will be fine. Or keep whining for no reason, if that makes you feel better.
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On September 20 2015 22:12 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 22:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it. Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily) Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want? Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race.
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On September 21 2015 00:22 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 22:12 CheddarToss wrote:On September 20 2015 22:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it. Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily) Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want? Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race. Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash.
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On September 21 2015 00:27 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 00:22 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 22:12 CheddarToss wrote:On September 20 2015 22:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it. Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily) Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want? Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race. Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash. P becoming the race that only get cheap wins in the early game but can't stand the test of a long game would be the worst thing ever. Ofc nerfs would have to be compensated in some ways, but all I know for sure is that the adept can't stay like this, and I said the day they introduced that long range pick-up thing that the warp prism would have to be nerfed at some point.
I'm all for P getting tools to be threatening early on, but not broken tools.
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On September 20 2015 23:01 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 22:55 KT_Elwood wrote: None of you will change the stats. Most of you are completely biased.
Yes WP got buffed hard. The PickUprange even feels stupid, its almost like blink,, the offensive WarpIn is too strong. Its a 200 Mineral DoomDrop.
It will get nerfed.
Parasite Bomb, Corruptor Ground attack and Liberator are too strong too.
Maybe it's the pickup range, which is too strong, but I'm not sure. To me the 2 sec warp in with the WP feels more broken. At the time the 16 sec WG nerf was introduced and WPs given a 2 sec warp in, many people were warning that this was not a good idea. It will probably get nerfed, because w/o the option to warp in more Adepts instantly, they don't seem strong. Especially vs Zerg. So that we can agree on something, yeah the 16/2 warp-ins was a bad idea. I've been advocating for a total split for ages now (pylons provide energy for buildings, warp prisms/warpgates/Nexi provide warp-in power) but there is close to zero chance they go back on that now.
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I'm glad we agree at least on something. I would also prefer Adepts or warp in (WP) to be toned down in the early game in exchange for buffs to all gateway units in the mid/late game. But I don't think DK is gonna do that. Maybe it was best, after all, to make WG a Twilight Council research and buff gateway units accordingly. But DK never wanted to try that out. I feel that that would have fixed most of the issues the Protoss race has.
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On September 21 2015 00:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 00:27 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 00:22 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 22:12 CheddarToss wrote:On September 20 2015 22:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it. Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily) Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want? Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race. Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash. P becoming the race that only get cheap wins in the early game but can't stand the test of a long game would be the worst thing ever. Ofc nerfs would have to be compensated in some ways, but all I know for sure is that the adept can't stay like this, and I said the day they introduced that long range pick-up thing that the warp prism would have to be nerfed at some point. I'm all for P getting tools to be threatening early on, but not broken tools.
Have we forgotten the early days of WoL where Terrans would 1/1/1 Protoss game after game after game and there was nothing Protoss could do about it until nerfs/buffs/strategy changes?
The game is still young and people are still learning how to play it. If something is clearly broken Blizzard will fix it.
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I dont like that adepts are a hardcounter to certain units but have no hardcounter early. I dont think they should two-shot marines and workers and i think they are too strong vs hellions and reapers as well. And their tunneling through units is peculiar to say the least, as it takes out a major micro-component, especially against early harass. Their anti-armored however could use a buff. For a unit that can't hit air and should be a core component in the army they can feel quite helpless if you dont bring heavy antiarmor support.
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United Kingdom20247 Posts
On September 21 2015 01:08 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 00:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 21 2015 00:27 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 00:22 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 22:12 CheddarToss wrote:On September 20 2015 22:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it. Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily) Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want? Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race. Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash. P becoming the race that only get cheap wins in the early game but can't stand the test of a long game would be the worst thing ever. Ofc nerfs would have to be compensated in some ways, but all I know for sure is that the adept can't stay like this, and I said the day they introduced that long range pick-up thing that the warp prism would have to be nerfed at some point. I'm all for P getting tools to be threatening early on, but not broken tools. Have we forgotten the early days of WoL where Terrans would 1/1/1 Protoss game after game after game and there was nothing Protoss could do about it until nerfs/buffs/strategy changes? The game is still young and people are still learning how to play it. If something is clearly broken Blizzard will fix it.
It wasn't even nerfed/buffed that much (a few small tweaks like 20% range increase on immortal, forced new meta) and that was a case of die on 1 base or die at your natural. It's not at all like adepts are killing terrans and forcing them to do only 1 specific opening to then still lose like 60% of games.
Adepts are not some super powerful all-in unit. Warp prism is broken, that's pretty obvious but adepts alone are not.
They're relatively easily defendable if you're playing defensive and aiming not to fall behind protoss much in economy (rather than expand ahead of the toss) and get worse as you get into the game, they are literally unusable against a midgame bio army (ever notice how people revert to chargelots+tech as soon as you get a few ghosts? Adept is 2/3'rds shield)
Adept is mainly strong in few numbers, they're very effective when you have 2-8 of them. They're strong defensively or offensively against low unit counts and being all aggro terran HOTS-style 3-4 minute medivac drop is not the way to play against a protoss who's playing safely any more - that only worked well when on even economy because unupgraded gateway units were bad.
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On September 21 2015 01:34 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 01:08 DinoMight wrote:On September 21 2015 00:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 21 2015 00:27 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 00:22 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 22:12 CheddarToss wrote:On September 20 2015 22:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it. Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily) Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want? Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race. Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash. P becoming the race that only get cheap wins in the early game but can't stand the test of a long game would be the worst thing ever. Ofc nerfs would have to be compensated in some ways, but all I know for sure is that the adept can't stay like this, and I said the day they introduced that long range pick-up thing that the warp prism would have to be nerfed at some point. I'm all for P getting tools to be threatening early on, but not broken tools. Have we forgotten the early days of WoL where Terrans would 1/1/1 Protoss game after game after game and there was nothing Protoss could do about it until nerfs/buffs/strategy changes? The game is still young and people are still learning how to play it. If something is clearly broken Blizzard will fix it. Adepts are not some super powerful all-in unit. Warp prism is broken, that's pretty obvious but adepts alone are not. They're relatively easily defendable if you're playing defensive and aiming not to fall behind protoss much in economy (rather than expand ahead of the toss) and get worse as you get into the game, they are literally unusable against a midgame bio army (ever notice how people revert to chargelots+tech as soon as you get a few ghosts? Adept is 2/3'rds shield) Adept is mainly strong in few numbers, they're very effective when you have 2-8 of them. They're strong defensively or offensively against low unit counts and being all aggro terran HOTS-style 3-4 minute medivac drop is not the way to play against a protoss who's playing safely any more - that only worked well when on even economy because unupgraded gateway units were bad.
MorroW and several other players have tested it to death. The Prism/Adept attack cannot be held without rushing out a Cyclone, and even then it's dicey. The only alternative is staying on 1 base for a very long time which isn't a real alternative. I'd like to add that the attack is nearly impossible to scout and can be macro'd out of easily.
Even with a nerfed Prism, any map with a large area in the main/natural will be vulnerable to this kind of cheese. The Protoss doesn't have to kill the Terran, just target firing down some marines while shading into the mineral line will do enough damage.
A couple stalkers can be warped in if the initial attack fails to break down the Terran's wall. If Terran sends too many units, Prism dropping/warping in at the mineral line again.
The problem isn't just the Prism, the problem is that a Terran player cannot handle a few Adepts getting into his base in the early game. They are too effective against Marines and Terran's other early game options can't kill them fast enough because their HP is too high.
I think it's sad that biased players like this can't see far enough past their cheap ladder wins to realize that their own race is the one that gets hurt by this kind of stuff. I play Terran, and I've never defended window mine drops. There are few things more dissapointing than tuning into Proleague hoping for great games only to see one of your favorite players insta-win after killing 30 probes with a couple mine drops (yeah, that's really happened multiple times in Proleague: 6-8 mines, 1 bad probe pull by toss, 30 dead probes, game over).
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