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United States22883 Posts
On January 09 2008 10:39 Seraphim wrote:I am glad all the Jaedong fanboys aren't like "OMG JAEDONG IS ANSWER TO BEESUIT PVZ - JAEDONG > BISU EZ GGNORE" Much respect Had Bisu been beaten like the Jaedong vs Stork series, I would concede that Jaedong > Bisu. The fact is, however, Bisu gave Jaedong a hell of a time that game and would never give an easy game to any zerg. Especially since it was on Blue Storm, I predict Bisu would've won a 3-2 bo5 vs Jaedong. Zergs are definitely finding answers to the Bisu build, but there's no full counter yet. And again, thanks to the Jaedong fans who see the challenge that Bisu still brought upon Jaedong. But a GG indeed Yeah, we'll just have to wait until the later rounds to see a bo5 between Bisu and Jaedong so we can declare a true winner. OH WAIT!!!
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where is Nory's thread???
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On January 09 2008 11:52 Exteray wrote: where is Nory's thread???
It's under his blog.
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where is nory's blog? lol
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On January 09 2008 10:41 OneOther wrote: The biggest factor I felt cost Bisu the game was the timing. He didn't finish JD off when he could have and eventually lost the game. lurker egg block ^_^
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im probably biased, but i thought the lurker egg block was pretty gay :O
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it's b/c you play p
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Oh, I savored the moment when bisu gg'd. <3 you Jaedong.
Tbh, I think Bisu's tactics are too reliant on the success of his harass. He couldn't effectively harass Jaedong effectively, and Jaedong, pulling out some sick plagues & macro, pulled through. His economy was never really damaged, but his harass tactics were quite useless against a Jaedong's 300 hatcheries.
I always thought of bisu as the 'pussy toss'
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i dont think zerg is weaker with less expos. I have seen several replays where july is just matching the protoss in bases, and giving them a hard time.
What i noticed however is that July had a pretty large number of drones. Though having more bases would certainly increase the mining effect of the drones, its not necessarily a rule that a zerg must keep x1.5~2 the amount of protoss bases to fight evenly.
I guess Bisu spent a lot on cannons and dragoon anticipating an eventual ultra/ling that never came. He probably did need more storms to makes his army more cost efficient. Zerg units are cheaper and I guess when both had mined about the same amount in total, Jaedong just turnt out to win.
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the problem (which happens a shit load in PvZ) is Bisu didn't kill Jaedong after all of that harrass and eventually when Jaedong got his drones back up, every single base of his was still full of minerals where as Bisu was running dry. Not only that but Bisu unfortunately wasted a good portion of units late game simply due to bad control.
Jaedong went macro heavy from the get go and loosing 10 drones at an expo every minute or 2 when you have 35 more isn't that big of a deal especially when you replenish your drone count as well as Jaedong did. Jaedong reproduced drones well and didn't loose too many overlords. Least not enough to really make Bisu's investment into corsairs a great cost. It probably came out 50/50. When it was all done and said for and after all of the harass was done. Jaedong had a bigger ground army and won.
If you guys wonder how this could happen. It's because Jaedong macro'd very nicely and him (along with Bisu's build) forced a lot of canons from Bisu. Think about it, Bisu spent A LOT of money on Cannons at 6 and although they killed a fairly large force. Bisu then rebuild all of the canons. Count the $ it costed for all of that. After all of the canons, corsairs and reavers, when the time came to start making a game winning force, his bases were running out of minerals and Jaedong's were healthy. After Bisu's initial force was killed he simply didn't have enough money to rebuild. I can't say it enough, Jaedong did a fantastic job replenishing drones. Add in some nice harassment with Lurkers, Drops, Plague and most importantly, making sure he had a larger ground army to deny any expansions at 10 and 12 and you have a very nice counter to Bisu build. Well played by both and it was a very close game. A few things different and it could have gone the other way. GG~
Overall, Bisu played his game and Jaedong beat it. Props~
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there were several battles in which bisu came behind, i think the accumulated damage cost him the game eventually:
1 losing almost all of his corsairs to hydras
2 a mass zealot attack to JD's nat, that was like 10+ zealots that killed a hatchery then died to mass hydras, it wasn't worth it
3 when JD dropped bisu's nat with a small force and used a lurker egg to stop his zealots, that cost bisu his robo, core, and some other shit while JD lost not much
4 JD's mass drop at bisu main, bisu microed very poorly there, losing 3-4 observers, a ton of zealots and a few goons to lurkers, and a few gates and pylons
5 JD's dual plague which raped bisu's army, then bisu wasted most of those plagued units over the following few minutes
6 earlier in the game, JD's drop and following attack at the 6 exp, it didn't kill the exp but it forced bisu to rebuild a ton of cannons and reinforce there, only to have those reinforcement units not be used for the rest of the game. You can see near the end how he tries to join those reaver/temp with his main army but fails due to JD's map control.
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I think the key to this game was the extra hatcheries JD put up in the beginning at the mineral only expo, it was because of this that he had the larva to up his drone count as soon as they were taken out and STILL have enough larva to pump military units. The extra larva allowed him to keep up the drone count up even after bisu continually dropped and stormed his worker lines, that I think was one of the keys to this game.
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On January 09 2008 13:27 garoth wrote: I think the key to this game was the extra hatcheries JD put up in the beginning at the mineral only expo it was because of this that he had the larva the up his drone count as soon as they were taken out and STILL have enough larva to pump military units. The extra larva allowed him to keep up the drone count even after bisu continually dropped and stormed his worker lines, that I think was one of the keys to this game. I agree. And bisu was losing a LOT on his drops.... the cost of 2 templar + shuttle is a lot more than a few drones. And when jaedong can make more drones quickly, the small loss in mining time really makes that kind of harass questionable.
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On January 09 2008 09:27 evanthebouncy! wrote: BEST GAME I'VE SEEN IN MY LIFE
For a moment I actually thought I agree to this post but then I remembered better games. Still that game was top.
I think Bisu was 1 step away from having the game but at the moment Bisu reached his hand for the cookies Jaedong mass-dropped his base and turned things over with a single strike. After that the game was (nearly?) equal so the better player would win. It turned out Bisu hadn't prepared well enough against permanent harass so he lost the game, yet not convincingly enough to say Jaedong outplayed him. It was a very hard fight for both of them.
Bisu clearly lacked army-management at some points. His defensive micro wasn't good enough and he built too many dragoons.
I think the game-deciding strike was when Jaedong had placed 2 lurkers behind Bisu's min-only (again?). In that time Bisu couldn't grow an army to save his upper left expansion.
All in all I think they both presented their own game of pure harassment. They both had their chance to gain an advantage and they both succeeded. But Jaedong had the last word.
Definitely a must-see!
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I think the timing element was crucial. Bisu was spanking JD pretty hard early game. However when the time came to turn that drone-killing and OL-slaughtering into a more concrete advantage, he failed, partly thanks to JD's perfectly timed doom drop in Bisu's main @ the gateways. Losing the corsairs allowed that to happen.
He needed to take the Protoss Army of Doooom and run over the bottom right expo. That expo kept JD in the game for so long.
Also, his unit composition, what was up with those mass dragoons? They became a huge liability as soon as defilers hit the scene, the time when 20 dragoons and cannons are shooting furiously but uselessly at a single hydralisk on the edge of a dark swarm at the 10 o clock expo was golden
More arch/reaver/DT I think would have sealed the fate when he tried to move out, they are much more immune to plague and DS.
Also, this game showed how game-breaking mass upgraded zerg basic units are and how ridiculously useful defilers are in ZvP, maybe its time to start adding a DA to the army for feedback? After all it costs 2 DTs and no research, 50 mana...
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In short:
- Harass doesn't work as well when Jaedong rebuilds drones. - Bisu lost too many units in the real battles. - Defilers. Replace Defilers with Ultras in the endgame, and Jaedon would have been mauled.
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i could not tell the upgrades from the youtube vid, but did bisu only have one forge, not even spinning at the end of the game while JD had 3 evos?
3-0-0 protoss ground force melt pretty ugly against 3-3-3 zerg hydra/crack, especially when there are moments of pure unit-clashing without any psi support as there were in this game
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let us not forget that bisu spent 1/4 of his mins on cannons, 1/4 on sairs while jaedong didnt even have a single sunken. since bisu only spent 1/2 of his cash on ground army and protoss units cost ~2x that of zerg, this make jaedong's army alot bigger.
also jaedong attacked each time with a critical mass of units at 1 location while bisu had to spread his cannons to defend every base.
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