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Russian Federation4333 Posts
BISU VS JAEDONG SPOILER!!! . . . . . . . . . . .
I finished watching the game between Bisu and Jaedong and I still cannot figure out how Jaedong managed to win the game especially in such a dominating fashion.
Let's recap the key events of the game: Bisu: Flawless sair/reaver/dt harass reminiscent of vs GGPlay in OSL. Safe expanding at 6 o'clock, min only, and eventually 10. Pumping ground army from unscratched 4 base econ. Denied Jaedong's 12 o'clock expand attempt twice.
Jaedong: Failed attack at 6. Failed drop at 6 with failed followup attack at 6. Semifailed drop at main. Sair intercepted drop at mined out nat doing little damage. Multible probing attempts to assault heavily defended min only resulting in heavy unit loss.
Looking at those event it is obvious that Bisu has the game in the bag. Jaedong wasted so many units from a battered econ. I was sure at that point that Bisu, anytime now, would roll out with his ground army and run over one of Jaedong's bases.
Then, Jaedong casts 2 perfectly placed swarms on Bisu's army . He follows up with an attack on 10 which failed (twice) although Jaedong took out cannons and many of Bisu's units. Jaedong also trapped a group of goons in between the attacks. After that, for no apparent reason, Bisu's army vanished. I will no forget the moment when Jaedong walks into Bisu's undefended 10 o'clock with 30-40 hydras and razes it to the ground. (Bisu JUST at the moment of his army's disappearance ran out of minerals at 6 and was running out at the min only). He GG ed moments after as Jaedong's swarm headed toward his min only.
Jaedong somehow... outmacroed Bisu, but with such inferior economy? Where was Bisu's army when 10 was getting overrun? I hope that more experienced forum members will shed light on how Jaedong was able to come back and win the game.
Was it the plagues that severely weakened Bisu's army? Was it the loss of those 2 gates during the main drop that hindered his macro? Was it the heavy goon investment or the double tech (dt+reaver) harass in the early game? Or did God come down from the heavens and stop that zeal/goon/ht just as he stopped those marines in Savior vs. Iris game 5 @ Araknoid?
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Video please?
Edit: Nvm I found it
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If i remember correctly, bisu lost almost all his corsairs to hydra, which allowed jaedong to seize map control and use drops. Having drop option enabled Jaedong to get agressive at multiple places and keep bisu on the defensive. (that was of the top of my head, everyone should watch this game a couple of times, PvZ is such a complex mu)
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On January 09 2008 06:15 il0seonpurpose wrote: Video please?
Video is on youtube.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNg68U1liz0"]link[/url]
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Calgary25950 Posts
My post in Nony's thread:
I can't explain to myself how Jaedong even got ahead. Every little harassment that Bisu did netted an advantage. He was at even bases for the majority of the game with tons of workers. He invested a bit into static defense, but it traded with Jaedong's drop so that isn't an issue.
You say he lost because he didn't move out quick enough, and I agree, but I can't explain to myself why this happened. Typically Protoss is behind in bases, and he needs to mvoe out in order to prevent being outmacroed in the late game, but that didn't happen in this case. Jaedong didn't display any particularly game-breaking micro in any battle, so that wasn't it. I wouldn't imagine that Jaedong had better macro than Bisu, so I doubt Bisu was saving minerals. Bisu's army was a little Dragoon heavy, but not so much that it should cause him to lose.
Both players start even. The opening builds were even. Bisu killed a lot of workers with harassment (+BISU). They were even bases (+BISU). Jaedong had that midgame drop that killed a few Gatways and a few more units that it should have, but also had the drop on 6 that pretty much failed (+JAEDONG, +BISU).
How does Jaedong come out ahead? I didn't see the upgrades, but I doubt that was much of a factor. Is the terrain on the map imbalanced? I really am quite confused, Bisu had a huge army and Jaedong's army seemed to be dwindling in the midgame, and suddenly late game Bisu cannot keep up, despite being even based. If I'm Protoss and I'm even based with Zerg, and every time I do a harass I'm killing more than I'm losing, there should be no incentive for me to move out, I should only get farther ahead by turtling and harassing until Zerg decides to expand again. I can't explain to myself how this happened, I'll have to watch the VOD again.
Anways great commentary Nony; It taught me a lot of overarcing game concepts, as well as little things (why Jaedong buried the Dronse at his main but not his second expansion against Reaver drops). Thanks.
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Overall, Bisu was just sloppy with his army.
He lost quite a bit to the doom drop in his main, he just ran his zealots into a large hydra/lurker force.
The plagues got a ton of his army, and when hydras attacked his base at 10, a ton of goons just melted to the hydras under swarm. Bisu also lost a plagued group of zealots and HT's to a very small zerg army soon after.
At this point bisu's army is almost entirely goons, many are plagued. His late game unit choice wasn't good considering jaedong was using hydra/ling/lurker only and reavers probably would have been a lot stronger than goons.
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i really think defilers with plague on a maxed army is better than using ultras, as well as using drops. ultras are too costly unless u are outexpanding him by like 2 bases and have damaged him.
thats my opinion,
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I thought there was too little HTs in Bisu's army. When zerg likes drops, uses mostly hydra + some lurkers HTs are a must.
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hydra lurker contain even with hive, swarm, mass drop, plague, the future of zvp.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Yeah, I was suspecting that it was the plagues that doomed Bisu's main army. Those 2 plagues covered like 90% of it and after he lost the majority of it defending 10, he was just unable to rebuild an offensive force in time. The momentum swung dramatically into Jaedong favor after. Man I knew plagues are underused in PvZ! Now we just need queens ensnaring sair/shuttle to spell apsolute GG on the Bisu build.
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the thing is, when i was watching the game, it seemed like JaeDong played Zerg the right way.
zerg mines minerals slower from each base, thus, later in the game, it is as if the zerg has more minerals than the protoss does.
Also, JD had ~.5 bases more than Bisu throughout the game.
Bisu lost a small amount of units many times throughout the game. Like when he went with 12 zealots to JD's nat and razed the nat. Although the Hatch was gone, if JD survived to the late game, he would have more minerals because only the drones, not the minerals died.
So essentially, Bisu traded units for a temporary econ advantage that would be nullified in the late game. Killing drones is 50 minerals if u think about it from a whole game point of view.
Basically, to sum it up, Bisu killed drones, but JD had 5 hatches for the first part to repump drones and make units. For some reason, Bisu's army that whole game looked really small and i attribute that to his constant harass. Drops cost money. (which is what people keep failing to see). When JD survives to the late game, because of how Protoss mines, bisu's cash flow becomes really small because his minerals run out, while JD has a bunch of patches so that his minerals don't run out.
Lastly, Bisu had almost no archons, giving JD a good advantage with Zerglings.
Defilers are imba. Cracklings are imba.(which is why i'm switching to zerg)
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United States1653 Posts
I was honestly quite confused as well. I thought Bisu had the game in the bag, but then his army just... vanished after his first blob. Where did all his cash go?
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2 plagues almost got all of bisu's dragoons, then later on with swarms and hydras the dragoons melted away.. >_>
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On January 09 2008 06:49 Musli wrote: I thought there was too little HTs in Bisu's army. When zerg likes drops, uses mostly hydra + some lurkers HTs are a must. Agreed.
I just watched the game, and I have to say I think Bisu definitely wasn't playing his A-game here. There were a lot of holes in his macro, and his strat wasn't very effective as well. I don't know why he decided to go mass goons again (thinking back to GGPlay game), if he was planning a timing attack, his timing was WAY off. :/
I think the one of the main reasons Bisu lost was because despite doing constant harassment on Jaedong, he didn't really do any serious damage, and also despite Jaedong failing his drops on Bisu earlier in the match, his drop didn't even have that many units to consider Jaedong as behind. Bisu's harrassment didn't do a serious blow enough and the map didn't allow him a direct attack on Jaedongs base, so Jaedong was able to get his macro+hive tech going and dominate the game.
Basically, I think the main reason Bisu lost was in order for his strategy to work he has to deal a considerable amount of damage via harassment to the zerg before he gets his econ up, because the map doesn't allow the Protoss to just defeat the zerg with a massive Protoss ball of death. In other words, I think it was the map (and in part how Bisu hasn't adapted to it). Zerg definitely has the advantage here due to their mobility. Major props to Jaedong for how he handled all of Bisu's harass though.
And yeah, going back to Musli's quote, Storm would've seriously fucked up all those hydras.
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You say Bisu was ahead in eco, but in then end both had mined 4 bases dry. So they must've spent roughly the same amount of minerals. While Bisu didn't suffer much eco damage he took no advantage of his momentary income surpluss either.
I personally think his main army did too little for too long. It was awesome how he fought off so many attacks and raided so often with only a handful of units. But he had 2 groups of zeals and a group goons standing around for minutes. I guess he wanted to be safe, but in that case it was Jaedongs who was safe. The needle attacks just didn't do enough damage. And losing shuttles, reavers, templars and sairs doesn't help.
Of course the terrain didn't help Bisu. Open space is bad for toss as far as I'm concerned. On both maps he lost the PvZ win percentage is less than 40% I think. That's pretty sucky.
So, in no particular order: Terrain Lack of main force aggression Jaedong's macro skills Jaedong's defiler usage Bisu's army mix
I have seen Toss fall time and time again because they had too many goons. People need to learn that goons are really not all that awesome. A templar/zeal combo is better. Just run from the lurkers with speed zeals and storm them. Archons reach critical mass eventually. Oh well, Bisu played awesome in my opinion anyway. I think a best of 5 with more balanced maps it would be a pretty even fight. I would love to see that.
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On January 09 2008 06:56 TheTyranid wrote:Yeah, I was suspecting that it was the plagues that doomed Bisu's main army. Those 2 plagues covered like 90% of it and after he lost the majority of it defending 10, he was just unable to rebuild an offensive force in time. The momentum swung dramatically into Jaedong favor after. Man I knew plagues are underused in PvZ! Now we just need queens ensnaring sair/shuttle to spell apsolute GG on the Bisu build.
i think it was 3 plagues i could be wrong,
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I have absolutely no comment on this game. Because it was just out of my league. Wow Jaedong!
and the only thing I can say about people talking about Bisu's bad micro/terrain/losses/harassments, etc. It doesnt freaking matter.. NOTHING matters! it is Bisu against a ZERG!
Its like blaming the terrain on a game like Boxer vs a Zerg on boxer's prime... there is no excuse.
Jaedong is the man
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Why Jaedong buried the Dronse at his main but not his second expansion?
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I think the game was more Bisu losing than Jaedong doing anything really spectacular.
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I agree with provius post in that it seemed like Bisu had it. Meaby Bisu forgott for one crucial moment to produce units, but that is almost unthinkable. One thing that you have to have in mind is that Bisu build meny corsairs and cannons. Jaedong dident build meny sunkens and not even all that meny scourge on the other hand he had to produce some extra overlord. Jd mostly produce low tech - units throu the entire game. Very strange. I wish they give us the replays file it would probleby straight things out.
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