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On May 04 2013 00:54 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2013 00:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:31 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K. Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable? Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good. Except Protoss all-ins are way more dangerous, and perfectly reacting in such a way that you auto-win after fending him off the all-in (for instance Blink Stalkers) is considerably harder than building a Stargate and an Oracle. And no, bad builds can win even the best players in the world. Soulkey is a very good Zerg and still he lost right away to 8-8-8 against Maru, which doesn't mean 8-8-8 is a "pretty good" build. I think protoss all-ins are more dangerous because protoss needs to really go all in to pull them off. Their builds don't allow for a halfway all-in like most terran builds do because of things like mules and being able to build CCs in the safety of their base with things like bunkers. Protoss doesn't get to make a forge during an all in, so they can't sit back and macro up with cannons if they fail. I think it's a fair trade off.
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If anyone has some free time, I think it would be a cool project to comb through the post histories of Terrans complaining in this thread, and see what they thought back in the 1/1/1 days. Curious what the results would be.
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On May 04 2013 01:10 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 23:20 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 03 2013 23:18 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote:I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that. Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D) To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan. There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker. I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame. Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve. In some ways it is better, but in many ways it is worse. There is reduced variety of viable builds for Terran, which is bad. Every game playing out the same isn't fun, or even strategic, it is just comes down to better micro in the end. I wouldn't mind seeing the Nexus Cannon go and the MSC getting Energize, so Protoss can fill up their Sentries to use Hallucination for scouting and have a lot of FF for defense (FFs take a lot more skill to use than the Nexus Cannon). Eitherway, any nerf to Protoss early needs to come with a nerf to Terran mid game. Basically Protoss is stronger early in HOTS, but Terran has a stronger midgame. And the winrates show 50% each way.
The terran builds are limited now, but they are likely to grow with time as the metagame shifts. I like the safer protoss openings that don’t require an endless gas dump into sentries and a greater ability to assert map control. It is just a more interesting game and I still fear terran in the early game if I can’t figure out what they are doing. The all-ins are strong right now, but defending new all-in them has always been a struggle and takes time. And the terran mid game is fine, because it is intresting to try to figure out way to delay that third base while also defending against speed drops.
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On May 04 2013 01:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:54 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2013 00:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:31 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K. Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable? Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good. Except Protoss all-ins are way more dangerous, and perfectly reacting in such a way that you auto-win after fending him off the all-in (for instance Blink Stalkers) is considerably harder than building a Stargate and an Oracle. And no, bad builds can win even the best players in the world. Soulkey is a very good Zerg and still he lost right away to 8-8-8 against Maru, which doesn't mean 8-8-8 is a "pretty good" build. I think you are incorrect that the protoss all-ins more dangerous that the terran versions. And all all-ins are easier to preform than defend, it has always been that way. Baneling busts are not hard to preform, but it is difficult to defend without taking losses.
Just forget about him. He's making up "facts" about things that A. He has no understanding of. B. can't actually be proven in any way.
Saying things like "Protoss allins are just better" and "8-8-8 is a bad build" is a completely ambiguous cop out that you use to "prove" your argument. When in reality there is no way to actually determine if your accurate and so we can't really evaluate the truth value of your claim at all.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: Case and point is Woongjin SoS going 1 gate expand directly into a 2rax bunker rush from bomber that he scouted, not even a second thought about canceling his nexus. The next game he kills him with a 3gate (bomber lost 19 scvs to the 3gate, when sOs expanded). [/i]
I do not understand the complaints about Bomber's game against SOS from the OP.
SOS played an ultra safe build by all standards. He made a 100 gas unit and a 50 gas unit for defense and he scouted the Proxy Rax. What do you want in that scenario? How much stuff does a Protoss have to build in your opinion before they are allowed to expand without dying?
You cheese, the opponent plays safe and scouts your proxies > you lose. SOS played better than Bomber so he won. That is all that happened on that day.
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what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
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On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins.
Proxy building. Not proxy tech.
The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal.
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On May 04 2013 01:02 Plansix wrote: I think you are incorrect that the protoss all-ins more dangerous that the terran versions. How so? Terran has no viable 1-base all-in in HotS.
And all all-ins are easier to preform than defend, it has always been that way. Depends on the all-ins.
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i agree, protoss can easily kill terran with a number of all ins but the MSC makes it impossible for terran to kill protoss early on.
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On May 04 2013 01:33 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins. Proxy building. Not proxy tech. The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal.
And you defend all of them the same way. By having your MSC ready and units next to your mineral line. If this is everything Protoss players have to worry about it really isn't comparable in the slightest to protoss all-ins, who have alot more variety.
And players transition out of protoss all-ins all the time and its easier for protoss because terran has no way of punishing it thanks to nexus cannon. let's not fabricate "facts" here pls. warp prism dt expo isn't all-in either, auto wins lots of games and protoss is at NO risk.
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On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this. 2 rax was already an awful build at the end of WoL and HotS only made things worse. The build is completely non-viable against competent opponents, so you only win with it because your opponents have no clue.
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On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this.
this does not work anymore against a fast expanding protoss, im high masters and you just cant kill the protoss. Nexus cannon range is HUGE and the only options you have is to run up the ramp while the nexus cannon kills 2-3 units and then you have to deal with the units on the top of the ramp. 2rax is dead because it doesn't pay for itself anymore. Terran needs some early game options!
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Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
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On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: I want this thread to be a discussion on the topic at hand, and I'll be totally honest I dont know how you fix it without breaking another matchup. That being said Starcraft 2 needs to be both fair and entertaining at the professional level, and reasonably balanced for the scrubs playing ladder. It's important that players on both sides of every matchup have the ability to both be aggressive and at the same time use the information given to them to be defensive.
From watching Dreamhack, and then into the GSL I haven't seen a Terran player be able to execute an early attack successfully on a Protoss player, no matter the level of greed the Protoss player is abusing. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 zealots and a pair of sentries as the defense for a Protoss player heading into the 10th or 11th minute of a game. The opposite is true of Protoss players being aggressive against Terrans. I've seen Terrans lose to oracles, 2stalker mc attacks, oracle busts, four gates, blink all ins, immortal busts and even dt's.
Protoss can easily, even with minimal to no scouting information defend Terran aggression without even having to deviate from their normal build. The basic point of MSC+3 warp gates and some form of detection will stop nearly any Terran attack early on in the game, up until the mid-late. There is very little extra preparation required to stop most Terran attacks, and with good reaction time + unit positioning it's fairly easy for a high level Protoss to stop Terran aggression. Case and point is Woongjin SoS going 1 gate expand directly into a 2rax bunker rush from bomber that he scouted, not even a second thought about canceling his nexus. The next game he kills him with a 3gate (bomber lost 19 scvs to the 3gate, when sOs expanded).
The reverse is simply not true. If the Terran player is unable to scout early aggression from the Protoss player there many situations where he simply dies. The frustration however does come from one specific front, but from the multiple different ways a Terran needs to defend. Couple that with the extreme difficulty Terran has in properly scouting and figuring out what Protoss is doing. The final nail in the coffin is all the different ways a Terran needs to prepare for the various all ins a Protoss can do. Most of them require very specific setups to defend and being safe against something is hard enough even with perfect information. The case here? Polt scouting grubby's proxy oracle twice and both times being unable to defend the oncoming attacks.
Then there the greedy Protoss. If the Protoss just simply goes for extremely fast upgrades and either fast Colossus or even more scary very fast upgrades and templar the Terran player can be in a world of trouble. The case study here is Parting vs. Flash where Flash is safe against proxy oracles, scouting for anything that Parting might be hiding etc. Then Flash simply can't out micro Zealot/Archon because the upgrades Parting has are first class, Flash just dies without so much as a whimper. Now I dont want to take anything away from Parting because he proved that his builds were air tight, and he played extremely well but it was hard to watch.
The ability to read what a Protoss player is doing is also extremely difficult right now, some of the best Korean terrans in the world are struggling to get a grasp on what their opponent is doing. Hell Flash seemed confused by what Parting was going to do. 2 Pylons, 350 mined gas, a Stalker and Mothership core could easily be any build Protoss has available, from proxy oracles, blink all ins, 2stalker mc rush, dt's or a fast expansion. There is not clear indication of aggression or macro play from that particular set of buildings. Add into the mixture the randomness and lack of polish on your average ladder and things can get extremely difficult in a hurry.
The discussion point is this though. Is there an imbalance in win/lose states to TvP in the first 11-12 minutes of the game. What do I mean by this? Well simply put there is no lose state for Protoss in the early game of TvP unless the Protoss player makes a mistake regarding control/map awareness. Protoss can play a safe build and be fine against anything Terran does, assuming they react in time. Terran on the other hand has multiple lose states unless they are specifically prepared to defend them.
TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
My conclusion here is pretty simple. Early->Mid game TvP really needs to be looked at and taken seriously by Blizzard. The matchup is quickly becoming a ladder nightmare for a lot of Terran players, and in tournament play it's starting to really lean in Protoss players favour where small advantages become huge ones when you involve the best players in the world. I would love to see the sub 12 minute matchup winrates for TvP, but I dont have access to those statistics.
Please for the love of god discuss recent pro games, your own experiences etc. I'm extremely interested in games where equally skilled players compete that go against what I'm presenting here, so link and bring evidence. Most importantly discuss things with intelligence and respect.
I want to make this point clear as well, even though it is basically unrelated to the discussion of this thread. I feel that Terran has a huge advantage in late game TvP, and with the right mixture of units+great control will ALWAYS win the fights. I think that is something that is better discussed in different threads.
You're correct that there hasn't been a many opportunities for Terran to attack in recent TvP pro games. However, this is only because Protoss players aren't playing greedy enough. Once Protoss players adapt their builds to take advantage of their superior defensive position in HOTS, plenty of opportunities for Terran aggression will appear.
So, I think your worries are unfounded. In fact, in RTS games, opportunities for early game aggression inevitably present themselves as players optimize their builds.
The early game only stagnates if one race is 1) unable to scout his opponent effectively to determine what threats there are and 2) lacks troop mobility so that when he misreads his opponent his army is killed instead of retreating. Because Terran lacks neither of these (with reapers openings, scans, and the speed of MM compared to zealots and sentries) Terran will have no trouble staging attacks as the metagame develops.
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On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this.
In my experience stargate just kills that build.
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On May 04 2013 01:42 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this. 2 rax was already an awful build at the end of WoL and HotS only made things worse. The build is completely non-viable against competent opponents, so you only win with it because your opponents have no clue. 2 rax was a decent build in WoL (and used at pro level, mainly by MarineKing). But I agree that it doesn't do shit anymore in HotS.
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On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
What nonsense.
6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade?
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On May 04 2013 01:46 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate. What nonsense. 6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade? 6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove
Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here
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On May 04 2013 01:39 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:33 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins. Proxy building. Not proxy tech. The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal. And you defend all of them the same way. By having your MSC ready and units next to your mineral line. If this is everything Protoss players have to worry about it really isn't comparable in the slightest to protoss all-ins, who have alot more variety. And players transition out of protoss all-ins all the time and its easier for protoss because terran has no way of punishing it thanks to nexus cannon. let's not fabricate "facts" here pls. warp prism dt expo isn't all-in either, auto wins lots of games and protoss is at NO risk. All right, you have invalided all further arguments by saying that warp prism, DT expo is no risk for the protoss. You over estimate the power of the MSC and nexus cannon.
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On May 04 2013 01:44 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:42 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this. 2 rax was already an awful build at the end of WoL and HotS only made things worse. The build is completely non-viable against competent opponents, so you only win with it because your opponents have no clue. 2 rax was a decent build in WoL (and used at pro level, mainly by MarineKing). But I agree that it doesn't do shit anymore in HotS. Nope, it was horrible as Protoss was systematically convincingly ahead when defending properly, and could easily kill you with an Immortal bust afterwards (even if they had to cancel their expand and go 2gR expand). I know MarineKing or Polt still used it sometimes, but from memory it was mostly on TDA (no ramp at natural + scouting lottery / possibility of close spawns). Flash used it too once on EV against Bong in Proleague (link), but unsurprisingly it did not go well at all.
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