In short: Three days ago and shortly after the end of a 6 month long truce between Israel and Hamas militants in the Gaza strip, Israel launched a "shock and awe" campaign on Hamas facilities in the strip. The NYT reports some 350 deaths so far, most of which are members of Hamas. Shit is going down.
In long: So there's this guy Samuel P. Huntington who wrote this book called the "Clash of Civilizations." He argues that now that the cold war is over, the major conflicts of the world will no longer be over ideology, but civilizations. Incidentally, he died today, probably out of despair that he was so damn right. There's no conflict in the world that better exemplifies the clash of civilizations than the never ending struggle between Israel and Palestine. The story of the conflict is the same story you'd expect in any instance of a foreign people being introduced suddenly and overwhelmingly somewhere and building a nation state out of thin air. You essentially have two civilizations with very different values and histories who just don't like each other much facing off against one another. The outcome is never pretty.
Mark my words, this is a conflict of civilizations between the Western and the Arab world. Why else is there such disproportionately strong interest in this one, obscure corner of the world? The Israeli-Palestinian conflict, while deadly, is far from the worst in the world. Yet, in three days, the number of articles I've seen published about the Gaza attacks easily outnumber the sum of those published about the conflict in the Eastern Congo, a war that rivals heavyweights like the second world war in bloodshed. We have no economic interest there, and if anything, our support of Israel has only hindered our rational geopolitical interest in the region. The only reason we care so much is because we see Israelis as one of us, a part of the family, a member of the West whose security is more valuable than 350, or 200,000 -- about the number displaced in the 2006 war against Lebanon -- even a million Palestinians.
There's a psychological study I read a while back that really demonstrates the power your alignment of civilization has on how we make value judgments. Basically, what these guys did was show two groups of people -- one Israeli, the other Palestinian -- the same news footage about Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Both sides came to glaringly opposite conclusions: the Israelis thought the footage criticized their efforts too harshly, while the Palestinians thought it was too supportive. The point being, there is hardly ever an objective right or wrong when it comes to this or any other geopolitical conflict. Quantitatively, the cost of the latest Israeli attack easily outweighs the half-dozen or so Israelis that have been killed between Christmas day and now. But can you really quantify the cost of living in constant fear of never ending rocket attacks? Can we blame the Israelis for foaming at the mouth from anger that a Palestinian whose personal and political anguish is, to the Israeli, distant and obscure?
Which is not to say we shouldn't try to do something about it. Being a moral relativist doesn't make me a heartless fuck. But the solution isn't to throw up your arms like a raving lunatic and bitch about Israelis or Hamas and condemn one or the other. In fact, an effective solution requires that we step outside the framework of our civilization and think creatively about solutions. In my mind, we have to consider things in the long term. Past attempts at resolving the conflict have only left behind a patchwork of broken promises, UN security council resolutions, and bitter feelings that have, if anything, hindered progress. I personally think negotiations would be much more successful if Israel had more of an incentive to achieve peace, like for example, if we stopped feeding them $50 billion in aid every year.
I don't know. This isn't my area of expertise. I was just gonna make a short post about recent events, but then I got all philosophical. Damn you Samuel P. Huntington. Of all the days in the world to die, you rotten old egghead.
Anyway, for those interested, a summary of what's going on:
So, why's this happening now? Well, the casus belli in Israel's case are the rocket attacks coming from Hamas' side of the border ever since the cease fire ended. In reality, both sides are being fueled by political considerations:
1.) President Abbas, leader of the secular, palestinian, Fatah party, wants to extend his term to five years so they would happen at the same time as Parliamentary elections. Hamas, Fatah's rival and the guys who currently control the Gaza strip, don't want this to happen. Hamas thinks it can make Abbas, who wants to negotiate with Israel, look bad by baiting Israel into an attack on the strip.
2.) Elections are coming up in Israel and the governing coalition is trailing the hard-line Likud party and their candidate, Benjamin Netanyahu in the polls. Ehud Barak of Labour and Tzipi Livni of Kadima both want to appear strong on security.
What's the ideal outcome? Depends on how you look at it, I guess. The Israelis would like it if they entirely drove Hamas out of Gaza, an unlikely scenario unless they occupied the strip, which they're wanton to do. Hamas wants to come out like Hezbollah did after the 06 war, as a regional hero. But Israel is much better prepared this time around, well, at least that's what analysts say. Either way, a cease fire will be negotiated whose terms will largely be dictated by how this conflict goes. Hamas stands to win more porous borders into Gaza and Israel might force Hamas to recognize Israel, but, well, that's not going to happen.
What's the worst that can happen? Israel will lose its fucking mind and start nuking everybody in the middle east and their mother. Seriously though, the worst possible outcome is if Israel plays the war like it played the war in Lebanon. Hamas will come out looking like the resilient warrior. It will have significantly more leverage over Fatah come election time, eliminating any chance for negotiation in the short term. In Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu will almost certainly win the election, bringing with him a much more hard line stance against Palestinian. If he does moderate his stance, as past prime ministers have, certain things the Palestinians can't do without, like a shared capital in Jerusalem, are off the table. Well, it won't be pretty.
I've been trying to read up on this recently because for as long as I could remember, this conflict has been going on and been publicized quite a lot. I have also met and have a lot of friends that are from both sides of the conflict.
I just don't get it... but I don't think I ever could unless I was an Israeli or a Palestinian who has experienced first hand what has been going on there.
On December 30 2008 19:53 Loanshark wrote: Wait, so Israel counts as the West?
Oh right you're from Afghanistan LOL that might explain it.
yes, israel is widely considered to be a part of western civilization. for example, 70% of its exports go to either Western Europe or the US.
and just to be a snarky asshole since i passed on my first opportunity with blackstar, maybe you shouldn't say dumb things unless you're sure you're right
On December 30 2008 19:55 jjun212 wrote: I've been trying to read up on this recently because for as long as I could remember, this conflict has been going on and been publicized quite a lot. I have also met and have a lot of friends that are from both sides of the conflict.
I just don't get it... but I don't think I ever could unless I was an Israeli or a Palestinian who has experienced first hand what has been going on there.
Sigh..
I can't recommend any books on the subject, but the council on foreign relations website is just an amazing resource for many subjects in international relations. also, check out these articles:
On December 30 2008 19:54 koziol wrote: its funny how those Jews live in the sea of Arabas who hates them.. seriously they should just go to other place and live in peace~
Yeah, moving a country in the 21st century is the easiest thing ever.
On December 30 2008 19:53 Loanshark wrote: Wait, so Israel counts as the West?
Oh right you're from Afghanistan LOL that might explain it.
yes, israel is widely considered to be a part of western civilization. for example, 70% of its exports go to either Western Europe or the US.
and just to be a snarky asshole since i passed on my first opportunity with blackstar, maybe you shouldn't say dumb things unless you're sure you're right
edit: fakesteve is awesome
I asked a question. A question cannot be defined as right or wrong in the sense of what you said. Statements can be true or false. Not questions.
I stated that your location could have affected your views on Israel. Because this statement concerns yourself, I don't think you can label this as true or false. A 3rd party is needed.
Maybe you should take a closer look at my post before you start talking about the supposed accuracy of it.
On December 30 2008 19:53 Loanshark wrote: Wait, so Israel counts as the West?
Oh right you're from Afghanistan LOL that might explain it.
yes, israel is widely considered to be a part of western civilization. for example, 70% of its exports go to either Western Europe or the US.
and just to be a snarky asshole since i passed on my first opportunity with blackstar, maybe you shouldn't say dumb things unless you're sure you're right
edit: fakesteve is awesome
I asked a question. A question cannot be defined as right or wrong in the sense of what you said. Statements can be true or false. Not questions.
I stated that your location could have affected your views on Israel. Because this statement concerns yourself, I don't think you can label this as true or false. A 3rd party is needed.
Maybe you should take a closer look at my post before you start talking about the supposed accuracy of it.
Your post came off with a very derogatory and condescending tone... I got the impression you weren't asking a question, but making a statement. If that is not the case, then I'm guessing English isn't your first language and this is a misunderstanding.
I hate these kind of threads, I really honestly do, there is nothing but a flame war and whole shitstorm of bashing one side or the other.
On December 30 2008 19:54 koziol wrote: its funny how those Jews live in the sea of Arabas who hates them.. seriously they should just go to other place and live in peace~
You should learn to understand the situation better instead of coming out and saying something like that.
My views of this situation are very one-sided and very pro-Israel.
On December 30 2008 19:53 Loanshark wrote: Wait, so Israel counts as the West?
Oh right you're from Afghanistan LOL that might explain it.
yes, israel is widely considered to be a part of western civilization. for example, 70% of its exports go to either Western Europe or the US.
and just to be a snarky asshole since i passed on my first opportunity with blackstar, maybe you shouldn't say dumb things unless you're sure you're right
edit: fakesteve is awesome
I asked a question. A question cannot be defined as right or wrong in the sense of what you said. Statements can be true or false. Not questions.
I stated that your location could have affected your views on Israel. Because this statement concerns yourself, I don't think you can label this as true or false. A 3rd party is needed.
Maybe you should take a closer look at my post before you start talking about the supposed accuracy of it.
Your post came off with a very derogatory and condescending tone... I got the impression you weren't asking a question, but making a statement. If that is not the case, then I'm guessing English isn't your first language and this is a misunderstanding.
On December 30 2008 19:53 Loanshark wrote: Wait, so Israel counts as the West?
Oh right you're from Afghanistan LOL that might explain it.
yes, israel is widely considered to be a part of western civilization. for example, 70% of its exports go to either Western Europe or the US.
and just to be a snarky asshole since i passed on my first opportunity with blackstar, maybe you shouldn't say dumb things unless you're sure you're right
edit: fakesteve is awesome
I asked a question. A question cannot be defined as right or wrong in the sense of what you said. Statements can be true or false. Not questions.
I stated that your location could have affected your views on Israel. Because this statement concerns yourself, I don't think you can label this as true or false. A 3rd party is needed.
Maybe you should take a closer look at my post before you start talking about the supposed accuracy of it.
Your post came off with a very derogatory and condescending tone... I got the impression you weren't asking a question, but making a statement. If that is not the case, then I'm guessing English isn't your first language and this is a misunderstanding.
On December 30 2008 21:48 Sk0 wrote: "The NYT reports some 350 deaths so far, most of which are members of Hamas.", this part is the best in ur comment...
israel will regret what it's doing to muslims, I hate israel and all their allies, they will regret all!
EPT
