EPTwill become an /in if game has not started by Friday
Newbie Mini Mafia XLIII
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
will become an /in if game has not started by Friday | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 20 2013 07:30 geript wrote: NMM XLIII is now over. Dandel Ion has won. I will start up a new NMM game for anyone who wants to join. + Show Spoiler + Ace will coach mafia gg go next? | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 20 2013 10:32 Aquanim wrote: Is someone who is jailed by the Yellow Ranger (roleblocker) informed that they have been roleblocked? I know they are not informed if they are saved, but what about the roleblock itself? The role description doesn't specify. Never mind, I read the setup notes spoiler and the answer is yes. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
/in | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
| ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 22 2013 20:16 Spicydinosaur wrote: This would be my fourth game. I played 2 newbie games and Les Mafia. Thought it was 3 games max, regardless of type. I'd play if a mod gives an ok. The OP states: This game is open to players with 3 or fewer games on this forum. You have three games, so this game is open to you. This is my fourth game too  (The wording is a little confusing, it's true). | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 12:30 FirmTofu wrote: Quoted Player List for reference: We still have yet to hear from Onegu, fyfy, Alakaslam, and LoneMeow. You wound me. Regarding claims I'm of the opinion that the Nosy Neighbour/Alpha 5 should claim now. This role is similar to a Miller in that it isn't useful for town at all, and could seriously backfire if they are watched/tracked/whatever by a townie. I don't see any downside to a Nosy Neighbour claiming, the worst case is that they play obvtown, get shot, and draw a shot away from actual town power roles. The biggest reason a Nosy Neighbour should claim now is that it eliminates the possibility of a scum fake-claiming it later if he is caught shooting/using a PR on someone. If we establish that a Nosy Neighbour should claim now, anyone claiming it later is caught scum. Obviously, scum can claim Nosy Neighbour so whoever claims it isn't confirmed town by any means. No other power roles should claim, that would be daft. (However, scum should feel free to claim their roles.) Regarding scum Current scumread is Chromatically for two reasons. 1) I don't like the feel of his initial posts. Making troll-cases to get the game rolling is fine, I have no objection to that in as of itself, but there's a certain nit-picking quality to his posts that feels wrong to me. On June 24 2013 11:13 Chromatically wrote: Well, it's hard to decide whether the "hey" part or the "everyone" part is scummier. Really a toss up. What could you possibly expect me to explain? You're taking this awfully seriously. Why did you take so long to reply if you were in the thread? Trying to read something into someone not posting for five minutes is ludicrous. 2) He's been doing a lot of asking other people for their reads while offering nothing even approaching one of his own. ##Vote: Chromatically | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 13:33 Hurricane Sponge wrote: The argument against NN/ Alpha 5 claiming as it was explained to me in this thread is that it won't take a shot away from the power roles, but in fact do the opposite. Mafia might keep him around all game and take shots at the OTHER people since there is now a higher % chance that they are Power Roles. But what if our Parity Cop claimed NN! Brb WIFOM Hell. (That was joke.) There are apparently a lot of other reasons NN should not claim now, but I'm not in the best position to elaborate since they are not my thoughts. That's certainly a possibility, but I think it's more important that we deny scum the opportunity to fakeclaim Nosy Neighbour later. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 13:36 Onegu wrote: As I have said before he provides a buffer to protect other blues, if there is a tracker for scum and it is likely and they know who nn is they can look to find other blue roles. Who cares if scum claim NN later we kill them anyway. If something wierd happens and the only explanation someone can give is I am NN we lynch them. All NN reveal does now is take away what little protection blues have. It's more likely that town (with two possible track/watch roles) will be misled by an unclaimed Nosy Neighbour than scum. I'd prefer to know that anyone claiming it later is scum than to have scum know that one particular person does not have a PR. Scum generally prioritize shooting strong townies over blue-sniping anyway, and if a claimed Nosy Neighbour (who is thus likely town) plays a strong towngame they are FAR more likely to be shot. tl;dr The advantage to town derived from scum not knowing who the NN is is tenuous at best and in my opinion non-existent. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
| ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 14:10 hzflank wrote: My take on this: NN claiming is a bad idea as they are likely to be lynched day 1, which ensures that a town is lynched day 1. I come to this conclusion because the person claiming NN may be scum, but even if they are not they do not have a useful town power role and the NN might harm the town later. For me, the day that an NN claims is the day that an NN is likely to be lynched. What. Just... what. If somebody claims Nosy Neighbour day 1, they aren't counterclaimed, and they aren't scummy, there is NO REASON to lynch them. If somebody is a Nosy Neighbour, they are MUCH MORE LIKELY to harm the town if the town doesn't know they are (likely to be) the Nosy Neighbour. Making scum claim Nosy Neighbour day one (which would be brave) or not at all is the optimal play. If we later have the choice between lynching two people who are NN or scum and we lynch the wrong one then we just lynch the scum the following day anyway. And if scum claims Nosy Neighbour at Lynch-or-Lose, which is not unlikely, we have to guess right or lose. I think that a day 1 NN claim would benefit the scum more than the town. Hurricane suggested the day 1 NN claim already and a few other people said it was a bad idea, but did not give Hurricane too much of a hard time for it. now you are making the same suggestion, which is a suggestion that will benefit scum, and I assume that you also do not think that you will get a hard time for it. Oh, I didn't agree with Hurricane's plan either, at least not the part about directing town roles such as the tracker. Players with PRs should basically always direct their powers at their own discretion. I was going to give you a hard time for voting for Chromatically as I do not agree with your first point about his initial posts. I think your second point is correct although he has said he might soon make a case (but it's against me!). Still, I find the regarding claims section of your post very scummy. Even if you think I'm wrong about the Nosy Neighbour claim, what about that makes me scummy? You need to explain this more. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
| ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:09 FirmTofu wrote: I know Aquanim wanted me to comment on Chromatically, but I would rather address his suggestion to have the NN roleclaim. Let's have a look at how a roleclaim would play out for scum and town separately so it is easier to visualize. Event: NN roleclaims Scum Information Set: Know who the NN is with a rather high degree of certainty Town Information Set: Could be an NN or could be scum faking NN. Learn absolutely nothing. Just based on the information that each side gains, we can see that scum takes a clear lead instantaneously. They will choose to avoid the NN if they have a Tracker and can proceed to eliminate one person from the long list of priority targets. Town remains confused as to the NN's alignment and ends up in a shitty situation. If you can find a way to resolve this issue, Aquanim, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I have you pegged as scum. First, scum is unlikely to claim NN day 1 for fear of being counter-claimed. Somebody who claims NN is obviously not confirmed town, but they're considerably more likely to be town. I have personally never seen a day-one miller claim (analogous to a NN, with different investigative rolls) end up being scum, and plenty end up being town. A miller/NN who is thus likely town and can thus play a strong, town-leading role is a HIGHER PRIORITY for scum to kill than a possible bluesnipe. Also, a day-one NN claim avoids two possibly disastrous situations later on: 1) An actual NN being seen visiting someone and being lynched for it. 2) Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. Auto-lynching any NN claim is bad for in the first case, treating NN as town is bad in the second case. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes both of these. The gain in information which scum gets from a day-one NN claim IS NOT SIGNIFICANT. Even IF scum has a tracker, a NN claim reduces their pool of players to track by something like 10% (I haven't done the math but it's about that). And like I said, if the NN plays a good town game he becomes EVEN MORE IMPORTANT for scum to shoot. Scum knowing not to track the NN is less valuable than town knowing not to track him. I'm tired of trying to beat sense into y'all about this, and I'm tired of y'all calling me scum over a difference of opinion about game theory. Someone man up and vote me over this trash or start playing the game properly. On June 24 2013 16:15 Onegu wrote: I agree with this the first person who wrote about NN made me feel noob town, but the second person to post after hearing what was said against it is very odd/scummy. The other guy's plan was bad for other reasons. In this case, however, I am right, the rest of you are wrong, and I am trying to persuade you of that. I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time though. My case. On Chromatically. Opinions please. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:48 FirmTofu wrote: As for Chromatically... Your case is extremely weak. Addressing your point 1), you are going off a bad feeling. Feelings don't cut it for me. I need evidence to make a move. I suppose that's a fair enough position to hold. I've personally found that my reads based on 'feelings' are often more accurate than those where I carefully assemble 'evidence'. This doesn't feel to me like the town Chromatic which I played with in Newbie XXXIII. Addressing point 2), it seems quite town to me because it's forcing lurkers to talk. Talking is good for town, so I see this move as something a townie would do. Asking questions is a town-y kind of thing to do, I agree. However, in my mind it is only significantly town-y when there is an actual plan behind those questions. By comparison, Chromatic was asking pretty generic questions without any real point or follow-up. Asking other people for their reads while having shared none of his own does not sit well with me. There are a few other things that make me think Chromatically is town. He was the first person to point out the foolish aspects of Hurricane's poorly thought-out claim. What incentive would mafia have to steer town in the right direction? Pointing out that some plan or another is stupid before anyone else does is a really cheap way of accumulating town-cred without committing to anything. Someone was going to shoot that plan down either way, so a scum player would have nothing to gain from not shooting it down. All this being said, I think that what he's done so far could plausibly be explained by a town mentality as well as a scum one. If he comes back tomorrow and starts playing a good town-game I'll be looking to lynch somebody else. For the meantime, though, my vote and intention stays. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:59 Onegu wrote: It is better to vote for lurkers who have posted one time and stopped then to vote for someone who hasnt posted anything because they will most likely get replaced or modkilled. It is even better to vote for people who have posted some stuff but haven't been useful, since you'll probably get a reaction out of them (and others) which will help you find scum. Voting a lurker doesn't accomplish much at this point in the day. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 17:55 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I'll drop the whole NN thing if people feel like we're getting off-track with it, but it seems like we're in a holding pattern while we wait for inactives to defend themselves. Regarding the NN Claim: This is a part of the game I clearly don't understand the far-reaching implications of. Addressing point #2, specifically: "Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes (this)." Is the value of preventing a mafia NN claim later in the game more than the benefit of having a real NN around to counter-claim it in the moment, catching the scum in the act? (This assumes the remaining townies have pegged the real NN as more town than the first claimant). Do not get discouraged- I would like to hear your thoughts on this subject, and it's important to emphasize that people make up their own minds on this matter as there is likely at least 1 scum trying to steer public opinion in the 'wrong' direction on this issue. You seem to have already convinced FirmTofu, and this is the kind of matter we can get Town Consensus on now in the early game. The trouble with relying on a Nosy Neighbour counter-claiming later on is that we have no guarantee that there is even a Nosy Neighbour in the game. If there isn't, and scum fake-claims it, they get away scot-free. Sure, we could lynch an uncounterclaimed Nosy Neighbour, but enforcing a claim of it day 1 avoids considerations of "did he only claim it to avoid a lynch?". If there is an actual NN, and scum fake-claims it, then they get counter-claimed and lynched, which is OK. Also, if there is a Nosy Neighbour and they are forced to claim at LYLO, then scum can counter-claim and leave us with a 50-50 chance (which might be a lot better than what they faced before). Since scum would probably only claim NN if it was a choice between a fakeclaim and being lynched, if the NN claim is not available to them they're just as dead (if not more) than if they were counter-claimed anyway. Thus there is no advantage to leaving a NN claim till later in the hopes of counterclaiming a fakeclaim. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
| ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 18:55 fyfy wrote: I don't know why I'm being voted day 1 when I haven't posted anything yet, I'm sure this kind of behaviour is exactly what the scum wants us to do. I'm sorry if there's no meta on me cause this is my first game and I would like to have my first game where I am not dead the first day. I can honestly assure everyone that I am town and killing me is a bad idea. EDIT: I know I sound scummy but I guess that's what you're all going to have :/ You're being voted because FirmTofu wasn't man enough to put his vote on somebody he thought would talk back. Don't worry about it, just read the thread and let us know who you think is suspicious. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on what's happened in the game so far sometime in the next few hours. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 20:43 Chromatically wrote: Aqua, are you scum? Both of these things are towntells. Explain to me the scum motivation in getting discussion rolling early day 1, which was OBVIOUSLY the reason that I pressured Spicy (and it worked). Sorry, if you thought that it was "ludicrous", but it doesn't make me scum and you know it. Oh, I don't have a problem with you starting the discussion - but the way in which you chose to do it made me feel uneasy. Calling somebody out for leaving for five minutes? Really? A very slight gut read was really all that ever boiled down to. If you wanted to know about someone, you could just asked me. I'm not just going to randomly post reads if I'm not going to push for their lynch, but I'll definitely tell you what I think of someone or who my scumreads are. Why wouldn't you ask me for my scumreads if you wanted them? Probably because that's not actually what you want at all. Someone else asked me for scumreads, and I posted mine right below your post, but you haven't reacted to that at all. Does this point still stand even after I've posted my scumreads? Or did your opinion not change at all for some reason? Those reads were pretty weak, I'd like to see more from you. No, it didn't feel like either of them, but I don't expect your scumgame to be the same as XXXI - you have learned a lot since then, I think. I am very, very uncomfortable with you, Aqua, because you are usually very town from your first post. This game, you've done a lot of shitting up the thread with stuff about claims and NNs. I kept getting asked about and called scum over the NN stuff, I would really have preferred for that not to drag out the way it did. tl;dr I had uneasy feelings about you but I feel a lot better after reading this post. My vote was fundamentally to draw reactions from you (to clarify my read) and other people, and to start some meaningful discussion (I don't think anything is accomplished in a thread until somebody's thrown down a vote). Go find some scum. ##Unvote | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 25 2013 00:06 Onegu wrote: Umm what does TL;DR mean? too long; didn't read. I've been using it to indicate the summary of my longer posts. | ||
| ||
