EPT[N] Sicilian Mafia Style
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Vivax
21965 Posts
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Vivax
21965 Posts
"What's all this mess about, sarge?" "Somebody killed RoL, we are looking for the killers" "But sarge, they have no reason to hide." "Well, they also killed Ver, and they want to kill us and each of these shouting idiots." "That changes everything then. What's the course of action sarge?" "Do you see what these people are doing? They hold onto every little bit of evidence they can find, always looking for anything that could be interpreted as scummy, and the longer it takes them to find something they can use against someone else, the more laughable their accusations become, until eventually, a poor soul gets lynched for being the loudest and most passionate about his wish for vengeance." "Wow sarge that's so interesting, what do you call it when they do that?" "Day one, idiot. We should start observing people closest to the scene of the crime. Look over there, do you see that dirty Hippy?" "What about him?" "He is trying to be helpful, wants to invite people to his trailer to talk with him privately, and claims that it's dangerous to talk to the killers." "But sarge, pulling the killers into a conversation is exactly what we want." "Precisely, the hippie thinks of avoiding threats, not finding the killer. Note him." "Done; sarge, who is that shouting guy?" "Seems like a Doctor, tryhard, and innocent, he clearly wants to find the killer. We shouldn't bother about what he wrote so far and keep going our own ways, that guy is not one of them." "The hippie and kholly seem to be of different opinion." "More is foul about the hippie than just his smell. Kholly speaks of a trap, I don't know what he means and he doesn't explicate it. Write down." "Aye, sarge. Look, there's a stoner among them too." "Jesus, not that guy again. He's always so hard to rule out among the suspects. I just hope that he'll try to be useful during this case. Might want to take him out tonight." "I'd never have imagined you were into stoners, sir." "I'd never have imagined you were a brain amputee. I mean to kill him. Don't ask." "Sir.." "Shut up, I skipped the others, look, right on the last page, there's the guy who thinks he's Rambo, he talks in a lengthy way about his intentions, apologizes for his future absence. He claims that the guy with the huge amount of cookies is a killer and wants to talk to him privately, but he doesn't directly ask him questions there. He rather uses it to justify his choice to invite him to a private discussion, and the scumread takes a secondary spot in his post." "I agree. It looks like he's simply trying to find something to talk about rather than stick to what should be important, had he the intention to find the killers. I got it. During the day we take out the hippie and especially the Rambo and the special squad will get rid of that pesky stoner." "Standard police work, Guido. But remember who gives the orders here." ##Vote StrongAndBig | ||
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Vivax
21965 Posts
The guy I masoned claimed that he did something somewhat scummy on purpose to draw reactions. I'll tell you who I'm masoned with and eventually more about our exchange once I've talked a little more to him and see if he gives his consensus. I stick to my opinion that S & B is scum, and I think that his first post is all you need to catch him. From a PM with the other guy: In the specifics, as I should already have mentioned, his post looks forced, lengthy. He touches on a variety of topics showing a certain intent of stretching the amount of content he writes about them. Especially the "noob player" one hit me as scummy. I see no motivation to write about that stuff unless you look specifically for things to talk about with the sole purpose of talking about something. Add his early apologies for inactivity to it as a cherry on top. In a game where many hadn't posted at the time your own inactivity shouldn't be a huge concern for you, it is a nice strategy for scum to adopt though (albeit being often ineffective), but since mostly it comes at no cost, there is no harm in scum trying to gain leeway by claiming to be busy. I kinda had half a feeling to post a list too but I feel like I should stick to what's relevant: Talking about scum. S & B has clearly put in more effort since, and I don't see anything scummy in his posts since the first (but I'll surely reread them to make sure). If he's scum he's currently putting in effort in a way that doesn't suggest he could be. That doesn't automatically undo the previous reasons, too often have I fallen for the mistake of lessening the importance of earlier actions as the game progresses (which I think is a general fallacy everyone is subject to). Other guy who looks bad is SlOosh for his defensive reactions and lack of followup. I'll be up for lynching him and encourage him to post more ASAP. To put it simply: I don't see any intention of finding scum in his posts yet, but he reacts quite happily to accusations. I be readin' more now. Any questions to me should be directed to constable Guido first. | ||
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Vivax
21965 Posts
Scumreads/suspects during this post: SlOosh/Oats/Ve @wiggles: Did you read my second post? It does not seem like it. Anyway I think you might be getting too caught up in my language. Do you disagree with my reasons for finding oatsmaster, sloosh, or VE scummy? Or just with the way that I phrased it and the fact that I decided not to pm oats right away? Cause the latter doesn't make much sense as a reason to suspect me. Scumreads/suspects during this post: SlOosh/Oats/Ve/Vayne @DrH if you get a chance can you tell me why im on your scum list? Scumreads/suspects during this post: SlOosh/Oats/Ve/Vayne/Malongo Can you look at my filter for my accusations/suspicions towards other people than oats and tell me what you think, do they support the me-being-scum narrative. Scumreads/suspects during this post: SlOosh/Ve/Vayne/Malongo But i've tried to discuss these points with wiggles and explain where i was coming from, do you have any comment on that? is there even a point in trying to engage with you given that you're continuing to critique my first post and ignoring everything else i've done since then, but i'm still apparently your main top scum read? What you notice from this is that S & B hardly pursues SlOosh and Vayne since his initial suspicion. I don't understand how his preferences form, and if I compare it to thread sentiment, he seems to follow it (which is rather subjective and is a point I don't necessarily want to rely on as main argumentation, I'd have to find every post talking about Vayne and compare it to his post timings, but it's more or less what I gained from the timeline of events). Mainly though, S & B is very concerned with people suspecting him, he regularly attempts to draw responses from people he didn't claim to be scummy in his opinion, which clearly shows a defensive mindset. His main concern should be to get information from his scumreads or getting them lynched, instead, he prefers to spend more time finding reasons from non-scumreads to have him as scumread. The nature of some of the questions also shows a subtle hostility: "Why should I even talk to you, I already defended myself" being the last example. I'm curious as to where he stands with SlOosh and Vayne now. As answer to S & B: I saw your response, but I think it missed the point. IIRC Wiggles himself touched upon that post not adressing the main cause of our suspicions. | ||
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Vivax
21965 Posts
Vivax do you think Layabout is scum? It kinda sucks for me to say this right after he called me scum cause it might look like I suspect him out of spite, I can only give you my word that this is as objective as possible after reading his filter upon your request: Fair chance. He has the sort of theatrical posting at times I associate with scum play screw it I Shall go to the saying "polarised" and being useless* isn't enough for the effort you have spent *although he hasn't been useless he has simply yet to start scumhunting also if i thought you were scum then i would push to l_ _ _h you. and a lack of assertiveness that is usually visible in his town play. I don't really see his "line of suspicion" in his posts. He really wants to kill Vayne. He asks Rayn a question. Asks VE a question. Now he wants to lynch me but wants to delay the reasons. All the while mixing in some rather pointless questions about mechanics and statements about time that lacks of a problem solving intention. Although I wouldn't use that as an argument in itself, but it refines the overall picture. Even someone like kush can show traits of townieness that make his other derping not very concerning, in layabout it doesn't fit in a good way. Btw I'm masoned with VE (who is the hippie I was referring to). Currently awaiting a reply but it would probably be wise to post our conversation since he's up for lynch. He told me he's working on something though so I'm waiting for that. I might donate him a few posts, although I've offered to post in his name instead (Housing the posts of multiple players in one post is actually a good strategy to economize on posts, a mason "central node" can take care of that) I've been masoned by someone else as of recent. Will reveal more information when I think it's appropriate. Other stuff I noticed while looking @ OP: Have you ever imagined what would happen if real mafia sat down with rival families and played a game of mafia, to the death? Rather than endless bloody struggles, the dons of Sicily have decided to settle their ancient and irrelevant scores by playing the most appropriate game of all. Success will land you riches, honor, and a steak dinner with the Pope, but failure may lead to swift burial. But beware, the supervising godfathers are short-tempered and quick to cut down loose-mouthed fools. Anyone who is likely to talk too much in mafia is likely to blab to the law. I might just be overinterpreting flavor, but with 6 mafia and closed setup, is it queer to think that there are two mafia factions of 3 players each given the high number of mafia? It's something that, should it hold true, I suspect could be revealed upon death of a mafia member (assuming there are different families). It might also not be revealed, leading to secret mafia wars being held behind the back of an unknowing town. This is rather irrelevant for scumhunting atm but I wanted to put the thought out there cause I found it thrilling. | ||
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Vivax
21965 Posts
By the way, I fully endorse an ace lynch, that's exactly how I would see him playing scum in the early stages of such a big game. Marked with an # means they're from me. 1: + Show Spoiler + Date: 7/17/13 02:30 You're #1 of 2. What's funny about your posting style is that Chezinu is actually smurfing in this game. I agree with you about DocH. What I did was a reaction test, I wanted to see what people had to say about me suspecting DocH. I think the most interesting reaction was from Vayne - no reaction whatsoever, in spite of being under direct attack from the person I claimed to be suspicious of. I'm not sure what to make of kholly. He seems to be ignoring everyone but DocH atm which makes it hard to draw conclusions. Oatsmaster is being derpy but I think he's town....tentatively. He's too quick to call anyone who disagrees with him scum to be scum imo. Kush on the other hand...I have a serious problem with the lack of Kush derp. As town he's not one to be told how much to post, much like Oats, and he'd be bucking the restriction just as Oats is doing. Except, unlike Oats, Kush had nothing to add to the game in the early stages...not even a play accusation. I think Kush might be scum...but I'm waiting on actual content to bring it to the thread. Hapa/Yamato are probably town...but their absence is odd. They're either PMing exclusively or they're just watching and waiting...which frankly is out of character for both of them, but I could just as easily see them changing their play due to the setup as town. I was hoping at least one of them would PM me, but alas I'm not as important as most. Ultimately, I could see one of them being scum, but not both, but I think for now that both are town. I don't see what everyone else seems to see regarding slOosh. Those are my thoughts so far. I've read everything and if I didn't mention something you wanted me to mention, let me know. I'm just kinda observing for the time being because I'll blow my posts if I get into a shouting match with Oats (which is the inevitable conclusion of me coming back into the thread XD) #1: 7/17/13 04:22 + Show Spoiler + It's cool you're masoning me, you're my first PM contact so far. I'm currently saving my ability up for a possibly good moment. I'm thinking about masoning kush to get a better read on him, my experiences in Hydra II with him weren't all that bad, in our qt, I'm somewhat confident one can push him to usefulness and readability but one needs to incentivize him. Before I proceed with more actions in the thread I prefer to wait until it's likely that every scum has posted, barring any interesting developments. We can't exclude the risk that someone simply forgot about the game given how long it took to take off. I can actually buy your explanation for having faked your play so far, simply cause you'd likely be more capable than that as scum. This isn't valid on its own, but given your explanation and early contact I think it's compatible with that version. I still have to evaluate you properly. I'm interested into knowing about: - Your choice of masoning me. - Why you don't mention S & B. In the specifics, as I should already have mentioned, his post looks forced, lengthy. He touches on a variety of topics showing a certain intent of stretching the amount of content he writes about them. Especially the "noob player" one hit me as scummy. I see no motivation to write about that stuff unless you look specifically for things to talk about with the sole purpose of talking about something. Add his early apologies for inactivity to it as a cherry on top. In a game where many hadn't posted at the time your own inactivity shouldn't be a huge concern for you, it is a nice strategy for scum to adopt though (albeit being often ineffective), but since mostly it comes at no cost, there is no harm in scum trying to gain leeway by claiming to be busy. I actually wish to win you for the S & B cause, so it would be nice if you could deliver me an own analysis of his contributions, or find any points you agree/disagree with. ______________________________________________________________________________________ Moving on to your reads: Vayne: I'm not sure what to make of him myself. There's something else about him other than what I have mentioned, but I would like to better understand what you think makes his non-reaction scummy. Kholly: Kinda shit choice (=DrH) for a scumread, but seems quite bold. Townie points. Kush: Yeah, but man, it's kush, expect nothing and everything. If I PM him and drag him into a chat I'll probably be able to get a decent read on him. Oats: He knows how he has to act to appear town...but probably can only act like that in earlygame. I'll be able to give a better judgment as time progresses. I'm confident I can do that. Of Hapa and Yamato I'd be at most concerned of Hapa, less of yamato, but I can only judge them by a first impression so far and prefer to keep myself back with a judgment so far. I know yamato has a high opinion of Hapa and hence it's likely they're masoned imo. SlOosh. Well, as you wrote the message I didn't see anything excessively scummy, but with his comeback I see stuff that is somewhat scummy. I think you wrote the PM before he wrote this [July 17 2013 03:53] reply, so I'd like an updated opinion on him based on that, and if you think what I think. #1 addendum 7/17/13 16:04 Can you explain what you found odd about Vayne in your first PM please? 2: + Show Spoiler + Re: SnB I'm not sure how I feel about SnB - I want to see more from him. That's the short version. He COULD be scum, but I don't think there's enough to condemn him in this thread yet. I think your reasoning feels like nitpicking his playstyle rather than observing actual scummy behavior. I'd like your thoughts on Malongo. He's been ignored by several players who should know better imo and I find that quite disconcerting. As I said in thread, he's obviously reading the thread (he tried to donate posts to DocH) yet he's not sharing any reads publicly and he's really just floating in the background of the game. This is exactly the sort of play I expect from scum in this game. kholly is playing in a similar manner, but again as I said in the thread, he's at least giving an opinion and taking a stance. I had a kind of knee-jerk reaction to Wiggles post because I didn't like his conclusions, but he's still kinda leaning scum to me. He's my weakest read by far though...I'm not interested in lynching him today anymore looking over the thread. I chose to mason you because I figured in PMs you wouldn't be roleplaying the way you did in thread so I wanted an avenue to read you without the veil of roleplaying. Get actual opinions rather than my own interpretations of what they might be...that sort of thing. #3 with reply 7/18/13 04:44 + Show Spoiler + Original Message From VisceraEyes: I'm not as engaged as I need to be. I'm going to put aside time for this soon. XD Original Message From Vivax: VE, there are a lot who would like to see you dead, what do you think are you doing wrong? Also, pretty funny how you told Oats to go screw himself lol. 3 addendum from VE: Date: 7/18/13 04:45 As a funny aside, I now only have one post left with which to state my case against Malongo and alleviate suspicion on me. Wish me luck. There are some more recent ones, but they're secondary for the moment, will post if necessary. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ I'd lynch SlOosh, ace layabout and S & B before VE pretty much, although I need to do a reread on SlOosh still, as announced. Kush voted SlOosh btw. Layabout doesn't remember what he wanted to do with his lynch targets, usually a sign of not-caring. IN NESTED QUOTE: On July 18 2013 06:14 layabout wrote: gumshoe i picked out the point which you were being dickish to me over, cus you know, i dont like that VE always posts like that and i never said i thought he was scum, your points sucked so i thought i should point it out. On July 17 2013 06:00 layabout wrote: I really want to kill vayne. Why sign up to a pm game if you are not going to use them? They benefit town the vast majority of the time. | ||
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Vivax
21965 Posts
And rereading SlOosh, I actually feel dumb cause he got heavily misrepresented at the start by Rayn/Hapa/FirmTofu, that doesn't change the fact that he lacked a scumhunting effort until his comeback into a thread with the sentiment to lynch VE. SlOosh should have some more time to show if his scumhunting is genuine. Nevertheless, I think ace should be lynched today,, or anyone being a lurker. This "leave it to the blues" attitude is like a virus of stupidity that spread through the forums at some point. There is no fucking point in not lynching someone who is either actively useless or detrimental, or openly mocks town, especially Day 1 when there's a high chance of crapshooting. VE claimed america, he claims dayvigi, so leave him alive, or you're dumb or scum. Enough said, now ladies and gents, please switch to someone like ace. Scum's ideal D1 strategy is to keep their head low. Tendentially, you can't easily shit over someone who doesn't post anything you could use against him. And if you try to lynch him, the "leave it to the vigs" jubjubs come out of the holes to call the policy lynch decision bad, when it's simply a legit way for scum to play (to the point of being considered a policy lynch). | ||
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Vivax
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I'm asking VE to forward PMs to you. It would REALLY REALLY be nice if he stayed alive, not just for that, but cause his claim is too weird to be fake imo. Please, everyone consider voting ace, even Malongo is fine for me, or kush. Just pick someone that we really won't miss. I picked ace cause he defied town openly, his whole posting is a joke, I received word that he is in another game at the same time, and he acts like he's stupid in this one, just to fuck off. It's not policy, it can easily be scum playing in a way that leads anyone leading their lynch ad absurdum cause of this policy lynching prejudice. | ||
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Vivax
21965 Posts
Lynch is in an hour, I think. Gonna work through DrH's points then, after getting an own impression of FT's filter first. | ||
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I think the lurker policy lynch is always a good one to consider. Although they may not necessarily be the best lynch, they do serve the purpose of setting up the lategame well. We don't want our endgame to suffer from inactivity and these types of lynches should prevent that. Perhaps we could also consider policy lynching people who repeatedly post one-liners. That sort of behavior is largely non-beneficial and we should send a message to everyone that we are not going to tolerate it. I'm expecting you to deliver. Which of the lurkers/ace-style-posters would you pick? Tentatively putting out ace and malongo out there for you to give me an opinion on, would be appreciated thanks. On July 18 2013 07:18 FirmTofu wrote: If he truly is dayvigi, why can't we ask him to prove it by shooting a lurker? Why doesn't he shoot Ace? I don't see his role claim absolving anything unless he can prove it. He told me he can only shoot 12 h before lynch, target dies at lynch. Would you take the risk of disrupting a marv-me-VE mason circle and losing a vigi instead of giving him the chance to prove himself tomorrow? At this point obviously you unvoted him, but at the time you had shown reluctance. Here's your fix for your reply, lil junke  ##Donate: 1 post to FT | ||
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Vivax
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MZ is a fine target as well. Basically anyone with low activity is someone I would kill given this D1 situation. Need to think again about killing the presumed Chezinu though, even though I ddidn't agree with his claimed suspects, at least he put in more effort than someone like ace. I'd probably not pick him for policy lynching today over all other alternatives. | ||
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21965 Posts
On July 18 2013 09:08 layabout wrote: If VE claims dayvig on day1 to save himself from the lynch shouldn't he fire at his scumread? If he is town then scum know about his role and as town we don't back off of a lynch because the person roleclaimed before we kicked the block from under they feet so that the noose would bite into their neck and cut the supply of air to the lungs and oxygen to the brain. a last minute claim does not a townie make particularly a non-confirmed confirmable claim. #donate 1 post to vayne cus having no posts is stupid if something happens Shouldn't you read your scumread's filter if you were town? That would help answering part of your question. Still no statement regarding your Vayne blooper so far. | ||
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Vivax
21965 Posts
Dropping my last vote on S & B cause there's a decent chance he gets lynched too, afaik. With WIggle's and DrH's support it should be possible. I'm not sold on lynching SlOosh so soon either, I only see him as decent and realistic alternative to VE. Lynching VE is simply and utterly stupid cause he can prove his claim tomorrow, during the day. Why should he fakeclaim something as abstruse and hard to fake as america. Call it WIFOM, but it will be ezpz to see if he's lying or not tomorrow. Launch nuke, wait for mod confirmation, and maybe there's someone with an anti nuke out there. You're also risking to disrupt a me-ve-marv mason "wheel". If you plan on staying on the VE wagon, you should really think thrice about what you're doing. At worst we give 1 scum another day to live before he gets lynched for sure. @ Layabout I mentioned how his role mechanics work in an earlier post, as he had explained to me in a PM. You seem to be unaware of those, hence you're not reading my filter. You still show no intent in pushing me, you're instead trying to justify a switch to VE now that you have a wagon available, apparently. | ||
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#Donate: 2 to VE 2 to DrH 2 to FT 2 to gumshoe Not sure if this is possible but look it up before you post maybe. RoL said something of a restriction I think. | ||
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I'd rather see VE talking a little more and DrH and FT tunneling some more. Nothing against you gumshoe, but you're low priority in this constellation. | ||
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Every townie who had voted VE should be ashamed and sheep people who actually know how to make good decisions in this game. For all I know though, his whole bandwagon could be made of scum and/or traitor. Not a single guy I can be sure of being town on there. Lynch layabout, S & B, ace please. | ||
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Vivax
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I'm just posting to tell you that you all suck. You are simply bad. You should look for another game to play cause you keep wasting my time with your decisions. Open your eyes, S & B is scum. Also, marv is scum. And there are a lot of people who didn't post shit and went ignored. Ace openly mocks us with his play, and posts justin timberlake shit. Trust helps in rare occasions, alright? | ||
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I think I'll do that too. That's why you should all go to hell, leave me alone. | ||
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My last two posts were made to look bad. One contains a crumb, the other I wrote to somewhat hide the crumb, The thing is, Hiro, the traitor, masoned me D1 (and after initial suspicion I ended up giving him a townread for him essentially uncovering an inconsistency/mistake in VE but not using it to push for his death. Anyway, I was afraid I would die tonight cause of the lack of people pushing for my lynch, so I gave Hiro all my logs of a conversation with another mason partner with which I had communicated extensively, to post them in case I die To guarantee that the logs were legit I sent Hiro this PM: To: HiroPro [ Profile | Buddy | Report ] Subject: Crumb Date: 7/19/13 08:56 For eventual post-death of the two of us, I need you to post logs between me and *snipped* to show what we worked out in the chat. I left a crumb for you so people can trust your post. Sup newbs. I'm just posting to tell you that you all suck. You are simply bad. You should look for another game to play cause you keep wasting my time with your decisions. Open your eyes, S & B is scum. Also, marv is scum. And there are a lot of people who didn't post shit and went ignored. Ace openly mocks us with his play, and posts justin timberlake shit. Trust helps in rare occasions, alright? I don't know if Hiro joined the mafia in time for him to handle all we discussed to them, but I don't think so (cause I think Hiro would have flipped mafia tonight if that were the case). I suppose he masoned me D1 assuming I had a chance of being scum after my first post that could be considered fluff. Here's our PM's, there has been chat conversation but we both fucked up @ saving those logs. Original Message From HiroPro: Hi, I masoned you. Mind telling me who the hippie was? Or was it viscera? Original Message From HiroPro: I just finished reading the game. Yea, I haven't been around until now. I masoned you because you seem to have actual content to discuss but haven't posted a whole lot in the thread. I'm not entirely sure what Viscera is doing right now :/ He doesn't seem to be reading the thread. I dunno why nobody else has realized lol, but the post of Malongo's that Viscera is talking about doesn't even mention sloosh - it's about Meapak. And I know viscera hasn't bothered reading mz's post because if he had, he would have realized exactly what was "needlessly polarized" about it. Original Message From HiroPro: Not really. He's just weird right now. I'd kill sloosh right now. Original Message From HiroPro: I don't think he's mafia. I don't mind talking about him in thread - talked about it a little there. Original Message From HiroPro: Do you know gumshoe? Is he just an idiot or did he actually just slip up in the thread - read my last couple of posts on him. Original Message From HiroPro: Hm?I'm talking about this post of gumshoe's: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19212104 in my last two posts. not about layabout. vote's part of it. mainly the way his opinion on viscera seems really strange: at first it's like slightly suspicious+questioning =>then it's starting to think he might be town=> followed by full-blown scum read=> followed by voting for firmtofu? and this is all in a 2-minute period. Original Message From HiroPro: I don't think that has anything to do with why I'm suspicious of him. Like I'm reluctant to get into an argument with him, because there's nothing he can say to defend himself even if he is town. I just think it's a lot more likely that mafia makes inconsistencies like that and can't remember who to vote for. Like it was kind of funny when he was like yea no motive besides blunder. Like no shit motherfucker, I think you fucked up. The only reason not to lynch him right now is how active he is right now. Yes, ace's posting is pretty bad. But I don't really expect anything from him though since we're already so far into the day and he's in another game. Original Message From HiroPro: story of every game :/ just have to wait with those guys. I'll probably mason someone out of mz/wiggles/marv/ace d2 to see what's up. and hopefully someone vigs kush. sandroba hasn't even posted anything lol. he's probably mafia too if he just shows up and drops some drivel. Thing is, in the chat, Hiro came to similar conclusions as me and the other mason as to who the scumteam are. I don't know if he tried to join them though, I think he'd rather have waited for a better moment to do that He claimed that most, if not all of scum, were on the VE wagon D1, with exception of yamato and Oats. I agreed pretty much with exception of Oats who I wasn't sure about, and who actually has moved into scummish territory for his inactivity I associate with his scumplay. For today, I think we should lynch kholly. It's Chez, and it plays like mafia, and if he doesn't, he plays for mafia. ##Vote kholly | ||
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On July 19 2013 23:07 strongandbig wrote: Anyway voting tofu. The case is good enough that I don't need to 100% believe the cop claim to at least vote tofu for now. ##vote: firmtofu Which case do you like most? What arguments do you find particularly persuasive? Asking this cause I'm interested in knowing how your read evolved and based on what arguments. @ Rayn Didn't notice the cop claim when I wrote that post. I'm however very distrusting of ace. I prefer to wait for Tofu first and then work through his posts again before giving a judgment. | ||
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