|
Master League Zerg (ex-random).
In ZvZ, for me the 10 pool is my standard opener. To me it feels like the safest way to open, in that I easily deny any all-ins that come from earlier pools, and I can force a cancel on a greedy bastard trying to pull a 15 hatch. There are some complications from 14 / 14 speedling all-ins, but I think proper baneling control will suffice, as I should eventually have a larva advantage.
My build order tends to follow:
---Overlord to enemy natural
-Drone to 10
-Pool on 10
-Overlord on 10
---Overlord in front of enemy natural opening to spot early
-Extractor Trick to 11/10
-Drone to 12/10
+ Show Spoiler +Somewhere I found this is a more efficient 10pool as you are never not producing larva since you never have 3 larva at once
-3Ling sets ASAP
-Queen ASAP
-1 more Ling when larva pops (should be at 18/18 right now)
---wait a second, then extractor trick the drone to get 1 more ling @ 19/18
*Right click enemy hatchery expansion if it is building. Force a cancel if possible
If not, poach up ramp and check for gas, spine crawlers, and lings.
+ Show Spoiler +______
***No gas, but all rest = I canceled a hatchery and should feel good. Continue to poke until spine finishes, then retreat. Drone up behind it.
***Gas, wobbling pool, only lings = gtfo because if I'm caught midmap with slow lings vs speed I'm dead. Poke around a bit if I can maybe force a spine, but really not worth it
***Anything else = He's bad, dead, or both. Or at least very much behind
________
-Expansion ASAP (usually I'll have just enough money right when queen finishes)
-1 more drone
-Gas ASAP
-Drone so hard Huk is tryin to outmiiine me... but he will nevah outmiiiine me
-Baneling nest ASAP
Scouting Timing:
IF I FEEL SAFE! (scout for hatchery rebuilding with drones following)
+ Show Spoiler +-Queen #2 at natural
-Drones
-Proceed with fast lair into muta tech.
IF I FEEL THREATENED! (scout for the lack of a hatchery)
+ Show Spoiler +-Squeeze out an extra round of drones then pump lings until scouting says other wise
-Zergling speed w/ lings
-Try not to overproduce lings until scouting confirms serious threat
IF I'M ABOUT TO GET AN IMMEDIATE @$$WHOOPING! (scout for tons of speedlings )
+ Show Spoiler +-Mass Pump Lings (try not to get supply blocked for heaven's sake)
-Morph 2-4 banelings (cry about lack of zergling speed afterwards)
-Micro like Jaedong
Here are 3 games I recently had where I got my arse handed to me. I THINK I know what I did wrong for them (maybe?), but I would like to get a second opinion.
http://drop.sc/333097
______________________________________________
Major Observed Mistake:
8:35ish. We were both even on lings, I was ahead a baneling, but since he was being aggressive he managed to slip in a couple extra drones. He was also up a queen, not that the injects were pro enough to matter. When I went out to attack his camp outside my base, not all of my lings were hotkeyed. About 10 of them went back to my natural after the initial chase, abandoning the rest to their fate. RIP
_______________________________________________
http://drop.sc/333111
_________________________
Potential Misread?
I saw 3 queens when I poked in the ramp @ 8:00. My ling lived just long enough to actually see ~5. I'm not sure that even if I had saw the extra queens, if I would have reacted any differently. This timing never even occurred to me, despite the fact that I watch TLO do this crap all the time on his stream. Of course, he might just see that he was behind in tech, and used the queens to protect himself while he got his own mutas out delayed. I'm not sure how I should have responded here.
Also, I was confused @ the overlord placement as well when he moved a bunch of them into mid map. I thought YAY free ovies!. Nicely timed attack with the creep highway. (Did he have Overlord speed? Don't recall.)
__________________________
http://drop.sc/333112
Uhh.... Missed Opportunity???
After the fact, I'm thinking that roaches are much more larva efficient than zerglings, and since we're both starved for larva @ this point, I think that those roaches may have been an interesting choice. I don't think spine crawlers would have done much since he had a good amount of lings too for his 8:00 attack. (Here I also think I should have said yolo and focused my lings at his natural on his hatchery. I was down a base by the end of it, and that may be a big error. Just wasn't entirely sure if I could get it or if his reinforcements would stop me.
Hotkey issues didn't hepl
For his second push @ 11:00, I think I should have countered instead of trying to defend. Just not sure here.
Also: wtf 14 pool 15 hatch? I did not account for that... potential hard counter to 10 pool?
_____________________________
Would like masters and grandmaster's input especially.
I don't want to change my build completely, just wondering about some potential adjustments to make.
<3
|
if you are going to do a gasless 10pool then why overlord on 10? double extractor trick before overlord and your overlord will be out when your pool is just about finished with enough money for the lings, that way you can either get a faster queen or faster hatch
absolutely no reason to overlord on 10
you say this holds off any type of all in from early pools, but really this only holds off pools pre-10 and gasless 10p, which you can still easily do with a 14p, if they gas 10p or 14/14 etc.. then you can just die, if you are doing this build because you think it is a "safe" build, then you should stop doing it, the whole point of the gasless 10pool is to deny their 15hatch and get up a hatchery faster than your opponent while denying theirs
if you are looking for a safe way to open then open pool before hatch (14p 15h, 15p 15h//16h) otherwise if they don't open 15h then you can be in a lot of trouble from right off the start of the game assuming your opponent can actually capitalize off of it (which in lower leagues sometimes they won't)
as for the 14p 15h, that is incredibly standard now and you will be facing it a lot in the future.
|
if you are going to do a gasless 10pool then why overlord on 10? double extractor trick before overlord and your overlord will be out when your pool is just about finished with enough money for the lings, that way you can either get a faster queen or faster hatch
absolutely no reason to overlord on 10
Interesting. I would have thought that it would cut into the monies since you're canceling 2 geysers and getting a late ovy, but I will check it out.
you say this holds off any type of all in from early pools, but really this only holds off pools pre-10 and gasless 10p, which you can still easily do with a 14p, if they gas 10p or 14/14 etc.. then you can just die, if you are doing this build because you think it is a "safe" build, then you should stop doing it, the whole point of the gasless 10pool is to deny their 15hatch and get up a hatchery faster than your opponent while denying theirs
by "all-in from early pools," I mean any pool earlier than a 10 pool (which I consider all-in). My idea of safe is:
making sure I'm protected against aggresion
AND
making sure my opponent is punished for greed (Ex. 15 hatch first)
So yes, I am trying to deny a 15 hatch as well aws deny early(er) aggression. 
For 14/14s (haven't seen a 10p gas yet), I CAN just outright die. I'm fairly sure this is held with banelings and control, though I have experimented with getting a second queen and blocking the ramp with mixed results. (Granted those were lower leagues so maybe...)
if you are looking for a safe way to open then open pool before hatch (14p 15h, 15p 15h//16h) otherwise if they don't open 15h then you can be in a lot of trouble from right off the start of the game assuming your opponent can actually capitalize off of it (which in lower leagues sometimes they won't)
as for the 14p 15h, that is incredibly standard now and you will be facing it a lot in the future.
wtf standard???
I really would rather not stop doing 10 pools, but from this you're saying that I'm going to be behind in A LOT of my games from it. Off of a 10 pool, is there any way to punish this (or at least break even) short of going gas then all-in off 1-1.5 bases?
Or is this another rock paper scissors scenario where the meta is turning to scissors but I'm still on paper?
|
Pool first is the standard. I believe it's what I face the most here in master league. It does have an edge against 10 pool but it is by no means a hard counter. If you go gasless 10 pool (no banes in the attack nor speedlings) grab a baneling nest first so that you can defend the incoming ling bling counterattack. I, more often than not, manage to cancel the 15pooler's natural.
|
On May 10 2013 18:48 puppylisk wrote:
if you are going to do a gasless 10pool then why overlord on 10? double extractor trick before overlord and your overlord will be out when your pool is just about finished with enough money for the lings, that way you can either get a faster queen or faster hatch
absolutely no reason to overlord on 10
you say this holds off any type of all in from early pools, but really this only holds off pools pre-10 and gasless 10p, which you can still easily do with a 14p, if they gas 10p or 14/14 etc.. then you can just die, if you are doing this build because you think it is a "safe" build, then you should stop doing it, the whole point of the gasless 10pool is to deny their 15hatch and get up a hatchery faster than your opponent while denying theirs
if you are looking for a safe way to open then open pool before hatch (14p 15h, 15p 15h//16h) otherwise if they don't open 15h then you can be in a lot of trouble from right off the start of the game assuming your opponent can actually capitalize off of it (which in lower leagues sometimes they won't)
as for the 14p 15h, that is incredibly standard now and you will be facing it a lot in the future.
Well it is more of a trade off ten pool is way safer than 14 pool against 6-7 pool builds, but against 10 pools that take the gas and 14/14-ish builds it's harder since speedlings kills slowlings and you will most certainly lose the expand.
I personally play with a 10 pool build in ZvZ, and I found out that most of the time the 8th and 10th zerglings is actually not that important whe it comes to force cancel the hatch. So I just make drones of those instead. Something that you could experiment with. If the opponent prepares well enough forthe ten pool like in the third game then you can not force cancel even with the additional 2 sets of lings. But it can always force lings which mean that you catch-up in drones. And you will initally have a larva advantage since your queen is 30 seconds earlier than the opponents.
|
I do 14/14 lot in zvz at mid-high master and its build order win against 10p no matter which variant they go if you do it right.
|
this is a build ive been playing with for a while. the timings work out perfectly once you get the hang of it.
-drone to 10/10
-10 spawning pool
-1 more drone to 10/10
-double extractor trick to 12/10
-overloard
-as your overloard hatches your pool will spawn
you will have enough money/learva for 3sets of lings
-queen
-1 more set of lings or a drone
then after that i would iether make an overloard and another queen or sometimes i would take my expo at 18/18
i think the only time ive seen this used (or a very similar build) in a tournament, the guy stayed on 12 drones and got gass for an all in. ive never seen anyone macro after it
im gonna try some stuff out then ill reply again. i have a feeling that if you make drones instead of lings this can be a safe opening vs early pools and you wont be behind in harvesters vs a hatch first. (much like the 14/14 build)
|
If you 10 pool, a 14 or 15 pool will be straight-up ahead of you unless you kill a couple of drones (which, with good control from your opponent, you won't). Occasionally you might get lucky and force a cancel on their hatch though. You're also going to have a ton of trouble vs 14/14, but that build is pretty rare now.
14 or 15 pool, 15 hatch is safe against everything, and only puts you very slightly behind against at 15 hatch (if at all).
10 pool is a good build, but it's not a "do it every game" type of build. Hell, on large 4-player maps, you might not even hurt a 15-hatch. Consider your maps when doing this build - 10 pool on Whirlwind when you scout your opponent going hatch-first in the last scouting spot is going to put you significantly behind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
