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I'm about rank 30 masters protoss and thought this pvt opening may interest some player who want something new to try. I've never made a guide before but will definitely correct any problems pointed out. I'm not sure if this build could work at higher levels, but it may be worth learning for variety in tournament series.
Concept:
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This build easily stops a proxy rax rush, the stalkers come at about the time a fast reaper would arrive, and even if it the rush does no damage, protoss can be very greedy with probes immediately after. It's important not to probe scout since the build is safe against anything I've run across and protoss will see entire terrans base at about 5m 30s anyway.
Clarification based on questions - This build punishes any terran opening that does not have a bunker or fast factory. A 2rax without bunker results in at least 5 scv kills. (that said, most terrans scv scout the double gateways and will appropriately make a bunker)
The delay in probe production and delay in expansion (when compared to a 1 gate cy core fast expand) is offset by 2 things:
1. This poke gets better scouting than a probe that will usually only see a marine and no gas or a marine and gas. This poke see's entire terran base around the 5 minute mark.
2. This poke kills at least 1 scv and/or delays terran mining time in every game I've used it on.
Build:
+ Show Spoiler +9pylon, chrono at 10/18 12 gate & chrono probes 14 gas 16 gateway (make with the 15th probe) 16 cy core before starting 17th probe, about 5 second probe gap 17 pylon at 18/18 will be about 7 seconds of no production, resume probe production after ms core: 18/26 2x zealots and ms core, chrono ms core 23/26 pylon 28/34 2x stalkers and double chrono 30/34 warp gate research 33/34 Nexus 33/34 pylon 34/34 2nd gas ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/H4iXsPH.png) Moving out with 2 zealots and ms core while 2 stalkers about to finishThe 2 zealots will arrive shortly before the ms core and stalkers arrive and can briefly poke or possibly delay a building bunker. When the stalkers arrive, all 5 units should be attacking at once. Terran will have up to 5 marines and if he has not seen this before will likely hesitate in deciding how to split them and stop this attack. If he keeps 3 or more marines in the bunker, stalker/zealots just wait while ms core does damage or delays mining. If terran has 2 or 1 marines in the bunker, start attacking and picking off repairing scv's, while microing back units. ms core can drop a time warp at scv line before leaving. Protoss should return with all 5 units and be very greedy on chronoing probes. Even after using time warp at terrans mineral line, the ms core will have be high in energy before terran can do any type of push. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/STedX4H.png) MS core hitting scv line while 2 stalkers and 2 zealots are micro'd in front
Terran response
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If terran is 1rax FE, I think his best response is to leave 1 marine in the bunker with 3 scv's repairing. Protoss should be able to kill at least 1 of the repairing scv's and escape without losing any units, but terran will be ahead in economy.
If terran is fast factory he's a little better off and just has to make sure the mine doesn't die before planting in the front or in his mineral line.
Transition into mid game
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Assuming I didn't lose the stalkers zealots or ms core, I follow up with:
36 robo bay for only observers (chrono observers against 1base factory opening)
36 forge
38 citadel
38 2x gas at expo
40 up to 4x cannons if terrran opened 1 base factory
44 templar archives and chrono storm while making templars and gateways
46 +1 armor and charge
Once charge, +1 armor, and storm are all researching I start making units again. I only have ms core, 2 stalker, and 2 zealot until this point, usually with a stalker near his base watching for move out.
A timing usually hits around 13 minutes with a ~100 supply of templar/chargelot/observer. I take 3rd and move out behind it.
Videos:
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Clarifications based on questions
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This build punishes any terran opening that does not have a bunker or fast factory. A 2rax without bunker results in at least 5 scv kills. This build will likely fail to a terran that has a bunker and does 1 base marine/marauder pressure behind it.
The delay in probe production and delay in expansion (when compared to a 1 gate cy core fast expand) is offset by 2 things:
1. This poke gets better scouting than a probe that will usually only see a marine and no gas or a marine and gas. This poke see's entire terran base around the 5 minute mark.
2. This poke kills at least 1 scv and/or delays terran mining time in every game I've used it on.
Replays:
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I think this is a cool guide, and an awesome idea. My only questions for you would be how would you alter the follow up transition if the Terran went to all in you? What circumstances would you look for to say, invest your gas into sentries if a big rush is coming?
I know it may be wasted energy, but would there be times that you feel like using an emergency recall would be necessary?
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No probe scout makes me very nervous, how does this build fare against a 2-rax (5-7 marines + 1-2 marauders with conc shell)? Also, how does it fare against CC first (I'd have to do testing but either you'd get more damage done than normal or nothing done and give up a huge lead in econ)?
I do both of these builds on occasion in TvP and most late/no scout builds get stomped by both.
2-rax especially worries me as it'll have conc shell to pick off your pushing army with better production and tech. In this case Terran won't need a bunker (they won't even have expanded yet, but can expand and push right after they clean up your units).
Also, does this auto-lose to a 1-1-1 (assuming Terran is properly cautious and puts a bunker at the ramp on scouting the 2-gate play due to the late expand/tech?
I think vs typical fast expand builds this would do quite well, but the lack of scout is something I do not like in PvT.
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I think this is only based on terran overreaction from spotting MsC in mineral line. You delay your expansion, tech and economy (i.e. probe count) just to kill a few SCVs. Don't really understand how this works.
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This seems nice pressure I guess? If you force cancel on CC or kill good amount of SVC's and recall back then theres nothing wrong with this ! I like!
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That opening is dead sexy!
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In the beta I opened with 1 Gate -> 2 Zealot + MSC + 1 Stalker -> Nexus, and it won a lot of games (it also hits a bit earlier).
I have some clarifications, though. You say the stalkers are on time for a fast reaper - what do you mean by "fast"? An 11/11 or 8/8/8 will almost certainly come earlier (the 8/8/8 will likely come before your zealot is even done). In fact, a 12rax /14 gas reaper arrives just around the same time as a stalker from a 1-gate build. You may have an MSC by then, but you certainly will not have stalkers 2 zealots, an MSC and 2 Stalkers.
I mean think about it - a standard opener will spend 275/100 on a stalker, WG, and a zealot before the reaper arrives. You may have a slight probe cut, but there's no way you're going to spend 300/100 (2z + MSC) and a second gateway around the same time. Hence, I'm guessing your units are significantly later, and you'll have to tank a few probe losses (+ probe cut) against reaper expand.
Try it yourself. Make a barracks and gas on 11 and rush out a reaper (it isn't that bad economically). You'll notice that it's much earlier than 5 minutes that your reaper arrives on smaller maps - it's more like 3:45-4.
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Rank 20-ish Masters Protoss here.
I like this concept, but the one-gate version of this (Zealot/Stalker/MSC scouting poke, Nexus, Robo) is, I feel, safer against mines and gets you a second Nexus a lot quicker. I feel like you have to ask yourself, am I getting equal return on the second zealot and stalker in relation to the investment I'm making at that point in the game? Unless you're causing a load of damage, I'd say it isn't worth it, especially since if the Terran opens with mine drops then they'll have mines at the front waiting to stop your attack. From the way my PvT games have been going for awhile, Terran seems under more pressure to go for a mid-game timing, and so if you can be more economical early and survive then you can win late. Plus, the earlier robo helps beat the sometimes still-used 1-1-1.
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On April 23 2013 22:30 Docta-thunder wrote:
I think this is a cool guide, and an awesome idea. My only questions for you would be how would you alter the follow up transition if the Terran went to all in you? What circumstances would you look for to say, invest your gas into sentries if a big rush is coming?
I know it may be wasted energy, but would there be times that you feel like using an emergency recall would be necessary?
This build does too much damage against any terran build without a fast mine or a bunker. If the terran is going for some type of 5rax stim timing before factory or expo, he will likely die to the initial pressure or be too far behind to recover.
A terran who bunkers and makes 5rax behind it (without expo or factory tech) would beat this build... I wouldn't use recall unless it was to save the ms core. This poke hits before concussive can be finished and the army can always just run away.
On April 23 2013 23:48 althaz wrote:
No probe scout makes me very nervous, how does this build fare against a 2-rax (5-7 marines + 1-2 marauders with conc shell)? Also, how does it fare against CC first (I'd have to do testing but either you'd get more damage done than normal or nothing done and give up a huge lead in econ)? ... 2-rax especially worries me as it'll have conc shell to pick off your pushing army with better production and tech. In this case Terran won't need a bunker (they won't even have expanded yet, but can expand and push right after they clean up your units)... Also, does this auto-lose to a 1-1-1 (assuming Terran is properly cautious and puts a bunker at the ramp on scouting the 2-gate play due to the late expand/tech?
This 2 zealots and stalkers really punishes a 2-rax that doesn't have a bunker. Terran won't have concussive in time to do waht you say. Against a bunkered 2-rax (rare?), protoss might be in trouble. Against 1-1-1 protoss will have an observer out at about the same time a medivac with mine could arrive (but as the guide mentions, I chrono the observer). A 1-1-1 with banshee will be useless against this build.
On April 23 2013 23:49 moQbara wrote:
I think this is only based on terran overreaction from spotting MsC in mineral line. You delay your expansion, tech and economy (i.e. probe count) just to kill a few SCVs. Don't really understand how this works.
The nexus is about a minute later than the somewhat standard gate->cy core->nexus build. The probe count is about two less, but scouting is much better after doing this poke and it should always kill at least 1 scv, often more depending on the terran opening. There is also a little bit of saved resources by not taking a probe off minerals to scout.
On April 24 2013 03:41 Treehead wrote:
I have some clarifications, though. You say the stalkers are on time for a fast reaper - what do you mean by "fast"? An 11/11 or 8/8/8 will almost certainly come earlier (the 8/8/8 will likely come before your zealot is even done). In fact, a 12rax /14 gas reaper arrives just around the same time as a stalker from a 1-gate build. You may have an MSC by then, but you certainly will not have stalkers 2 zealots, an MSC and 2 Stalkers.
Not that fast, I mean a standard reaper fast expand from terran. Usually the stalker is out 10 to 30 seconds ahead of the reaper arriving (which can be a problem if the stalker is already 30 seconds toward the terran base). Against an 8/8/8 the fast zealots and stalkers and ms core will still be effective, just comes down to probe micro in the interim I suppose.
On April 24 2013 06:48 TGalore wrote:
Rank 20-ish Masters Protoss here.
I like this concept, but the one-gate version of this (Zealot/Stalker/MSC scouting poke, Nexus, Robo) is, I feel, safer against mines and gets you a second Nexus a lot quicker. I feel like you have to ask yourself, am I getting equal return on the second zealot and stalker in relation to the investment I'm making at that point in the game? Unless you're causing a load of damage, I'd say it isn't worth it, especially since if the Terran opens with mine drops then they'll have mines at the front waiting to stop your attack. From the way my PvT games have been going for awhile, Terran seems under more pressure to go for a mid-game timing, and so if you can be more economical early and survive then you can win late. Plus, the earlier robo helps beat the sometimes still-used 1-1-1.
Agree with everything you said - the standard 1 gate is more solid, but this build may be a nice addition to the arsenal for tournaments or series matches. This build still does fine against an early 1-1-1 though (observer is out in time).
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I go 11/11 reaper vs Protoss becasue it is guaranteed a probe kill, good scouting, and forces a stalker which results in me having enough time to prepare for proxy oracle.
What do you do against a reaper opening when you get 2 zealots?
Edit: maybe your stalker is out in time for a 14 gas reaper, but not 11...
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Looks like I'll be going Hellbat drops from now on *le sigh*...
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On April 24 2013 09:31 U_G_L_Y wrote:
I go 11/11 reaper vs Protoss becasue it is guaranteed a probe kill, good scouting, and forces a stalker which results in me having enough time to prepare for proxy oracle.
What do you do against a reaper opening when you get 2 zealots?
Edit: maybe your stalker is out in time for a 14 gas reaper, but not 11...
I found a masters terran who did a fast reaper build, although maybe not as fast as 11/11. It arrived after the ms core was out and did no damage: http://drop.sc/327044
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This build gets a fairly late nexus compares to the standard so even after 2 or 3 worker kills the terran will be ahead. A normal mothership core scout would see as much as this build with a much faster base
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On April 24 2013 11:26 texmix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:31 U_G_L_Y wrote:
I go 11/11 reaper vs Protoss becasue it is guaranteed a probe kill, good scouting, and forces a stalker which results in me having enough time to prepare for proxy oracle.
What do you do against a reaper opening when you get 2 zealots?
Edit: maybe your stalker is out in time for a 14 gas reaper, but not 11... I found a masters terran who did a fast reaper build, although maybe not as fast as 11/11. It arrived after the ms core was out and did no damage: http://drop.sc/327044
That was a retarded build by the Terran (gas first reaper...) !?
Anyway, your core pops right after an 11/11 reaper would have arrived so you would lose a probe but probably kill the reaper. Good timing!
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On April 24 2013 09:31 U_G_L_Y wrote:
I go 11/11 reaper vs Protoss becasue it is guaranteed a probe kill, good scouting, and forces a stalker which results in me having enough time to prepare for proxy oracle.
What do you do against a reaper opening when you get 2 zealots?
Edit: maybe your stalker is out in time for a 14 gas reaper, but not 11...
If you micro probes decently, It's really hard to get a probe kill and also, chronoed stalker with 13gate/14gas arrives around 11/11 depending on map.
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Looking good, Tex! Thanks for posting the guide
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What would be your reaction as a follow up with this build if you saw the terran was going mech? hellbat/tank and a bit later thor.
I notice you (and a lot of master protoss) depend on zealots a lot. I see you mostly dealing with bio, so this makes sense. Storm and charge. How would you have evolved your build past the rush vs mech? I'm not fully satisfied by the FAQ in the "protoss help me" thread I guess.
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On April 26 2013 23:32 LegionSC2 wrote:
What would be your reaction as a follow up with this build if you saw the terran was going mech? hellbat/tank and a bit later thor.
I notice you (and a lot of master protoss) depend on zealots a lot. I see you mostly dealing with bio, so this makes sense. Storm and charge. How would you have evolved your build past the rush vs mech? I'm not fully satisfied by the FAQ in the "protoss help me" thread I guess.
I go immortal and templar (with 2x immortals producing at same time)... not sure the best composition though.
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EPT
