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I've been thinking about things lately, being a mapmaker. A lot of things. With the recent release of Diablo 3, we've been delivered another dose of Blizzard's amazing work, which is to say that a lot of my thinking lately has focused on what makes a Blizzard game exactly what it is. Watching Day[9]'s interviews with the developers of D3(http://day9.tv/archives/?search=interview with Day[9]) has brought up this interesting insight into their philosophy, one that has a profound effect on our experience, whether or not we notice it(this is actually its own important point, watch the interviews if you haven't, they're quite good).
I've noticed something about Blizzard's melee maps. Actually, a couple things. The first, notably, is that they're not very good at it, according to, well, everyone. I happen to disagree. Why?
Back in the earlier days of Map of the Month, maps were rated on 3 factors: gameplay, aesthetics, and perhaps the weirdest of all, intangibles. My focus in this thread is going to be primarily on that last one. What are intangibles? I think it was MotM's way to try and put a fix on something that can't be described, something you just can't put your finger on. That "X factor" that makes something unique, that gives it a distinct feel, a personality, or even a soul. However, many months have passed, and the rating of maps for MotM has changed drastically, going from specific criteria at times to simply which one was the judges' favorite at others. The criteria of intangibles has been long since removed from the judgment of a map, I think correctly so. However, they were on to something very important, so although it's somewhat unreasonable to try and gauge something you can't really measure/compare, and use that to determine which map is best, it is absolutely crucial to think about and consider it. This is sort of where my thoughts about Blizz come into play.
Blizzard has gotten a lot of criticism/flaming for the melee maps they create, because from a strict viewpoint of balance, sometimes they mess things up, even though they're the creators of the game(I just feel a horrible sense of entitlement coming from anyone who says this sort of thing). However, once you delve into their philosophy on the games they create, the way they go about creating melee maps makes a lot more sense. They focus, almost solely sometimes, on that intangible factor, producing maps that just have this something to them. The way they go about things, from the creation of maps for SC2 to the creation of SC2/D3, and in fact every game they've made thus far, focuses on being bold, and having fun with it, and coming up with something that just has this awesome feel to it, yet at the same time also has a feel to it that you don't notice consciously. Looking at their maps, like the most recent creation Entombed Valley, you can see what I'm talking about, sort of(you can't really, but you sort of can, I know it's weird). It doesn't focus on being ostentatiously beautiful, nor does it focus on being strictly balanced(oddly though, it does have very nearly 50% winrates overall), but it's still one of my favorite maps, which probably sounds weird to a lot of you. Lots of people seem to have something against this map, but I don't necessarily understand what that is.
Then again, I can't exactly explain what I see in it either, but that's sort of my point. There's always this feel, this air, to a Blizzard map, that stands out and makes it immediately identifiable as Blizzard's own creation, but it's difficult to explain what it is a lot of the time. Even a map as old(and perhaps outdated) as Metalopolis, has something to it that just gives it an awesome feel. I just feel that there's this facet to Blizzard's mapmaking process that few of us actually comprehend, and I'm trying to delve into it myself. We as a community cannot actually replace Blizzard's mapmaking, nor should we try to. That said, there is one group of mapmakers that's come closer than anybody else to seizing what it is that makes a map truly special, and that group I believe is Team Crux.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, as you can tell, and it's probably going to change the way I make maps forever. Slowly but surely, I'll be attempting to capture this magic myself, to try and create the coolest maps out there. I hope whoever reads this considers my idea and tries to do so as well. It might sound odd, and if it does then it probably is, but I think I'm onto something here. Feel free to share your thoughts, whether I'm insane, a genius, or somewhere in between(I like to think it's that last one), and whether you agree, maybe even why you agree/disagree.
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I agree. And I think Blizzard should keep making maps. They really bring great ideas even if the maps aren't the best.
I don't think it's entirely Blizzard, though, so much as the foreign map making scene is held back by a sort of over-concern about balance and gameplay. You mentioned Team Crux, and I think in general the Korean approach is somewhat different. I actually think a non-Crux mapper, Jacky, who's with ESV, might do the best job at this, with maps like Calm Before the Storm, Crevasse and Xel'Naga Fortress.
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I agree too. Blizzard is not making bad maps, but rather tournaments are using them way too long.
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It's funny, I've actually been thinking about this too. When you look at a map, you simply see... something. It just looks right.
For me, I think I've narrowed it down to a few different factors that add that extra something for me. But it is really intangible, like you described. For me I think it comes down to really solid proportions and diversity with proportions, some fun pathing, and a really clean look. Not necessarily aesthetically, but just makes the map look very well thought out and well done.
Like you said, I think you can see this with Crux maps the best. You look at metropolis, which isn't even viewed as a really great map, but there's just something... right... about it.
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A game of Starcraft is like a story, and the map is the setting in which the story takes place. It has a huge affect on the way it plays out, not just in the details but also the whole theme.
Cause I don't think a map's role should just be to take the current metagame and try to improve on it and allow it to happen in the most balanced and effective way. Rather, it should be it's own entity. We shouldn't really strive to create the perfect map so much as just the perfect version of the map we want to make.
Korean BW maps are good in this way as well, imo. It's something for us to work on.
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On June 05 2012 06:55 Gfire wrote:
I agree. And I think Blizzard should keep making maps. They really bring great ideas even if the maps aren't the best.
I don't think it's entirely Blizzard, though, so much as the foreign map making scene is held back by a sort of over-concern about balance and gameplay. You mentioned Team Crux, and I think in general the Korean approach is somewhat different. I actually think a non-Crux mapper, Jacky, who's with ESV, might do the best job at this, with maps like Calm Before the Storm, Crevasse and Xel'Naga Fortress.
Exactly.
However, it's funny you mention Jacky specifically, since he was with Crux for a long time before joining ESV.
Also, it gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling to see there are people who agree
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I actually have the totally opposite feeling about blizzard maps. Even many maps which I have no objection to in terms of balance I just hate playing on. Shakuras plateau is an example of a map which really isn't too imbalanced but which I actually feel bad playing on. Most maps blizzard makes I find totally uninspired or creative. I much perfer the communities maps. Those are the maps where i see new and good ideas; things which make the game better. I feel there is a lifelessness to most things that come out of blizzard. Maps like entombed valley, antiga shipyard and the shattered temple just exemplify these qualities to me.
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Most of blizzard's strong maps are ruined by leaving in the shitty spawning points on ladder.
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On June 05 2012 11:18 WhalesFromSpace wrote:
Most of blizzard's strong maps are ruined by leaving in the shitty spawning points on ladder.
Could you elaborate? The only terrible spawn points possible are really just close ground spawns on Metalopolis, on the other maps(like Antiga), it's possible to use the unique advantages of each spawn position to offset their disadvantages, so I don't really think there's anything wrong with their current setup, and I think it would be in fact boring if all maps were forced cross spawns, I think that's a bad practice that makes gameplay too controlled and predictable. That's just my opinion though.
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Blizzard makes maps from a game design standpoint, more so than a competitive gaming standpoint. The simplest way I can explain it is that there are two factors contributing to that "feeling" you describe. One is psychological, although that does not make it any less real or important. Blizzard maps are all received with the force of de facto legitimacy, which totally changes how they are perceived compared to hypothetical "other" things. I'm not just talking about Blizzard maps vs community maps in SC2, this is a game maker's consideration in any arena. Out of countless possibilities we are presented with just a very few official, sanctioned, specially prepared, handcrafted, artisan game pieces. The player is primed to delve into what is offered, and because these specifically were the real and true pieces out of a haze of possibilities, they must offer something. Even if you don't experience this consciously, it is happening. If someone hands you a treasure map with an X, you go looking for gold. If someone shows you some lines on a tattered cloth and says "I believe this to be a treasure map", you entertain the notion with less enthusiasm.
Second, all of their maps have an easily identifiable concept which the map as a whole bears out, so that it all makes sense how the pieces fit together. This is perhaps a truism of design in general. It also goes hand in glove with the above, because if, on your treasure map, you turn left at the palm tree, and while hunting for treasure you come across a palm tree, you think "this is coming together, it all make sense". These things are part of the role expectation plays in enjoyment of a play activity (a game), and the discovery and validation process are part of that. I'm sure these things aren't explicitly in the minds of Blizzard's mapmakers -- not us either -- but we are all using these phenomenon in our designs. Blizzard is aiming for satisfying flavor with enough sophistication to make it feel special; approachable depth. This does not mean it will satisfy the rigors of competitive gaming where perfect exploitation can ruin a "fun" concept, or where the "winningest" way to play a map makes it boring or predictable. Blizzard maps might work out for competition but they can't guarantee it because they are held back by the larger design goal of being eminently consumable.
To sum up, they have less constraints, and they depend on a well-made game system to provide entertaining gameplay in a variety of situations. In that environment, concept based design is successful because it resonates with players.
To compare, most of us trying to make competitive maps, or at least think about how they could be better, have concepts that go into our maps. However, usually they are only part of a map or map idea because they are the product of some very specific consideration about competitive play. Or, they are abstract ideas that don't actually hit your eyes when the map is in front of you.
Cloud Kingdom and Tal'Darim Altar are good examples of community maps that have strong concepts that led to wide acceptance (in addition to being purpose-built for competition).
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On June 05 2012 11:23 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:18 WhalesFromSpace wrote:
Most of blizzard's strong maps are ruined by leaving in the shitty spawning points on ladder. Could you elaborate? The only terrible spawn points possible are really just close ground spawns on Metalopolis, on the other maps(like Antiga), it's possible to use the unique advantages of each spawn position to offset their disadvantages, so I don't really think there's anything wrong with their current setup, and I think it would be in fact boring if all maps were forced cross spawns, I think that's a bad practice that makes gameplay too controlled and predictable. That's just my opinion though.
Closed horizontal on Entombed is bad. I also feel that there is blatant imbalance in non-cross spawn Antiga: The player whose 3rd is neighboring the main of his opponent is at a massive advantage in terms of being able to safely apply pressure, elevatoring, and bouncing around at the entrance to the natural. I refuse to TvT or TvP on ladder Antiga. I am sure everyone else who watched or played in the early seasons knows the pain of maps like Delta-Quadrant, Lost Temple, and Metalopolis close spawns 
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On June 05 2012 14:51 WhalesFromSpace wrote:Closed horizontal on Entombed is bad. I also feel that there is blatant imbalance in non-cross spawn Antiga: The player whose 3rd is neighboring the main of his opponent is at a massive advantage in terms of being able to safely apply pressure, elevatoring, and bouncing around at the entrance to the natural. I refuse to TvT or TvP on ladder Antiga. I am sure everyone else who watched or played in the early seasons knows the pain of maps like Delta-Quadrant, Lost Temple, and Metalopolis close spawns
Fair points I think, but I don't really think the ladder, as it existed in its first months, is any indication of the way things are now by any means. On Antiga Shipyard in particular, I don't think that's much of a reason to hate it. Your opponent in that case has an easier time harassing you, yes, but odds are you know it's coming honestly. And also, if you can hold your 3 bases successfully, you now have an easier time of denying a 3rd base than your opponent, as their 3rd is much more out of the way of the main attack path between the two of you, and so will be harder for them to place their army appropriately(since, conversely, they don't expect attacks on their 3rd as often). I do think that overall it can be trying, but I also think it balances out, as a lot of rotational maps often do.
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What seems to have been forgotten in the OP is the way a map allows players to play out the match in the spectator's point of interest (for example, for tournaments). It is not fun to always watch pro's playout on the same terrain and Blizzard does not nearly refresh the ladder map pool as often as they could or should from this point of view.
Next to that we have the factor that pushes players towards a certain type of play, let's say the 2base all-in. This play is also relatively boring to watch, but next to that it limits the number of viable builds for the player.
This is especially true for 2v2 maps in the current ladder pool, where teching to tier 3 is equal to committing suicide. The holes in the player 'fortresses' are enormous, the map sizes are small to medium and the number of possible expansions are limited to 2.5 per player (not including those 2-3 gold bases, that are impossible to claim). It's like playing chess on a 4x8 board.
You can say a lot for intangibility, but in some cases there are other factors that should be prioritized first that are simply not happening on Blizzard maps.
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1) Blizzard maps already come with legitimacy.
2) Yeah Metalo has an intangible feeling. But that's because I have played on it since fkin season 1. I hold the memory of a thousand great games won or lost on it, as well as epic pro ones. That would be true of Cloud Kingdom, Dark Shines or your latest map or any one with halfway decent aesthetics really.
I really don't think Blizzard should keep making maps. They just suck.
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On June 05 2012 14:59 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:51 WhalesFromSpace wrote:Closed horizontal on Entombed is bad. I also feel that there is blatant imbalance in non-cross spawn Antiga: The player whose 3rd is neighboring the main of his opponent is at a massive advantage in terms of being able to safely apply pressure, elevatoring, and bouncing around at the entrance to the natural. I refuse to TvT or TvP on ladder Antiga. I am sure everyone else who watched or played in the early seasons knows the pain of maps like Delta-Quadrant, Lost Temple, and Metalopolis close spawns Fair points I think, but I don't really think the ladder, as it existed in its first months, is any indication of the way things are now by any means. On Antiga Shipyard in particular, I don't think that's much of a reason to hate it. Your opponent in that case has an easier time harassing you, yes, but odds are you know it's coming honestly. And also, if you can hold your 3 bases successfully, you now have an easier time of denying a 3rd base than your opponent, as their 3rd is much more out of the way of the main attack path between the two of you, and so will be harder for them to place their army appropriately(since, conversely, they don't expect attacks on their 3rd as often). I do think that overall it can be trying, but I also think it balances out, as a lot of rotational maps often do.
I forgot to include that the player who I feel has the advantage can take the gold base while applying aggression. It is extremely obnoxious when combined with AOE space control units.
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most of peoples issues with Blizzard maps were
extremely short distances between bases. (promoting, oh you just lost a battle. let me barrel down your front door since you have no time to reinforce. defenders advantage? HAH)
3rds were horribly exposed and difficult to take/defend. this is a debatable one. since the main issue with this is everyone wants to keep their army on 1 hotkey in a big ball. so maybe it's fine now with the current metagame switching off that A LITTLE. the usual rule with expansions since brood war has been, main, extremely easy to defend, natural opens up abit more and 3rd is usually fairly exposed but still quite easy to take. 4th and 5ths are what open the game up, with so many bases you have even more vulnerabilities, this promotes alot of split attacks, drops, etc, everything.
which is why im liking sc2 abit more with these large maps where games commonly goto atleast 4 bases.
it doesn't really matter, no point dwelling on the past anyway, just take it as it comes.
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EPT
