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National Defense Authorization Act

Forum Index > General Forum
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motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
November 30 2011 13:29 GMT
#1
There's a bill in Congress that has been causing a lot of consternation lately. It's called the "National Defense Authorization Act." This bill is the latest iteration of a massive bill that is passed every year that deals with the military. In essence it funds and mandates certain activities by the military.

This year, a controversial provision has made its way into the bill.

SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE

      (a) In General- Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.

      (b) Covered Persons- A covered person under this section is any person as follows:

            (1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.

            (2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.

      (c) Disposition Under Law of War- The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:

            (1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.

            (2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111-84)).

            (3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.

            (4) Transfer to the custody or control of the person's country of origin, any other foreign country, or any other foreign entity.

      (d) Construction- Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.

      (e) Requirement for Briefings of Congress- The Secretary of Defense shall regularly brief Congress regarding the application of the authority described in this section, including the organizations, entities, and individuals considered to be `covered persons' for purposes of subsection (b)(2).


Opponents of this bill have claimed that this bill will allow the U.S. Executive Branch to detain citizens indefinitely. Will it? Let's take a look.

Sec 1031 (a) states that the Armed Forces can detain certain persons. These covered persons are either persons who planned or executed 9/11 or harbored those who did, or persons who have been a part of Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or "associated forces" or a person who has assisted such groups.

Subsection c) lists the ways that such persons can be detained. This is pretty much what the military has been doing to "unlawful combatants" over the past 10 years.

Subsection e) states the the Secretary of Defense must report to Congress whenever the definition of "covered persons" under subsection b) is expanded to include more groups or individuals than had previously been listed in subsection b. In other words, if the military suddenly decides that Occupy Wall Street has been associating with Al-Qaeda, they've got to explain why they think that is to Congress.

There are two reasons why the government's power to detain U.S. citizens under this act are extremely limited.

The first is the definition of who exactly the government can detain. This definition is almost identical to the one used for the past ten years by the U.S. Armed Forces to define "enemy combatants."

The definition in the Act is the following:
A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.

While the definition of an enemy combatant is the following:
‘Enemy combatant’ shall mean an individual who was part of or supporting Taliban or al Qaeda forces, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners. This includes any person who has committed belligerent act or has directly supported hostilities in aid of enemy combat forces.

They look pretty much identical, don't they?

The U.S. military has been detaining persons under the "Enemy Combatant" rule for the last ten years, so this law is basically business as usual.

But what about the possibility of the U.S. Army detaining a U.S. Citizen? Doesn't that violate due process?

The Supreme Court agrees with you 100%! In Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, the Court ruled that the Executive Branch of the United States doesn't have the right to hold U.S. Citizens indefinitely without following due process. This court ruling led directly to the release of a U.S. Citizen who was being labeled an enemy combatant.

So, essentially, the bill doesn't need a provision excluding U.S. citizens from the bill's scope. The Supreme Court's ruling has already excluded them.

I know this is tl;dr, and the only reason I'm posting it is so that whenever someone posts a dumb over-simplified thread saying that the U.S. Army now has the right to imprison the entirety of OWS I can just close it and link to this thread instead.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-30 13:56:17
November 30 2011 13:34 GMT
#2
One step closer to being a police state.

edit: Look at my alias, I just had to.

User was warned for this post
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
Gottes Zorn
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany9 Posts
November 30 2011 13:37 GMT
#3
America is really tightening up. If the Al Qeada and Anti-America organized terrorism is indeed true, this is its real victory - confusion, anarchy, and paranoia.
Der Worte sind genug gewechselt, Lasst mich auch endlich Taten sehn!
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
November 30 2011 13:37 GMT
#4
I don't know why I even bother.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
adun12345
Profile Joined May 2011
United States198 Posts
November 30 2011 13:37 GMT
#5
On November 30 2011 22:34 Disregard wrote:
One step closer to being a police state.


Way to miss the point of the OP entirely.

@OP - Interesting post. The exact specifications for what constitutes an "enemy combatant" have always been quite vague - it's interesting to see an analysis of the latest Defense Act that touches on that subject.
ulan-bat
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
China403 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-30 13:40:01
November 30 2011 13:38 GMT
#6
On November 30 2011 22:34 Disregard wrote:
One step closer to being a police state.

Being in China, you know what you're talking about

On subject, good review of the situation, thanks OP.
It may be business as usual but it's still baaad to be able to detain people Guantanamo style.
"Short games, shorts, summer weather, those things bring the heat!" - EG.iNcontroL
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
November 30 2011 13:39 GMT
#7
On November 30 2011 22:34 Disregard wrote:
One step closer to being a police state.

LOL. The whole point of the thread was to try and prevent knee-jerk reactions such as this.

Personally, I don't like our government being able to hold any person indefinitely without trial, US citizen or not. However, this is just an continuation of the enemy combatant policy we've had for 10 years now.
Moderator
Deleuze
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United Kingdom2102 Posts
November 30 2011 13:39 GMT
#8
On November 30 2011 22:37 motbob wrote:
I don't know why I even bother.


Thanks for clarifying Motbob.

Please continue to bother.
“An image of thought called philosophy has been formed historically and it effectively stops people from thinking.” ― Gilles Deleuze, Dialogues II
Cubu
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
1171 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-30 13:43:30
November 30 2011 13:42 GMT
#9
On November 30 2011 22:34 Disregard wrote:
One step closer to being a police state.


umm... too late?
Edit: never mind, i realised what the OP meant
Soleron
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1324 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-30 13:48:32
November 30 2011 13:48 GMT
#10
This thread needs to stand for all time as to why tl;dr is an axiom of the internet.

Thanks motbob.
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
November 30 2011 13:55 GMT
#11
So what I understand is that they have to prove that the people they detained have proof of such association, or can they just detain without probable cause?
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
WTFZerg
Profile Joined February 2011
United States704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-30 13:56:47
November 30 2011 13:56 GMT
#12
I think the biggest problem with this is that, at face value, it is a power that could readily be abused.

However, it is worth mentioning that under Posse Comitatus, the military has had the ability to act as a police force with congressional approval for quite sometime.

I did not know about that particular supreme court ruling, so I'd like to thank you for bringing it up. Ignore the idiots shouting fascism and police state without even bothering to get all the facts.
Might makes right.
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
November 30 2011 13:59 GMT
#13
On November 30 2011 22:55 amazingxkcd wrote:
So what I understand is that they have to prove that the people they detained have proof of such association, or can they just detain without probable cause?


Once they have any information regarding your association, they can detain you at their will.
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
AlmightyJoker
Profile Joined August 2011
United States48 Posts
November 30 2011 14:01 GMT
#14
so basically its business as usual and the OWS people are going to try and make some big deal about this bill being another way government is trying to control our lives?
gruff
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden2276 Posts
November 30 2011 14:10 GMT
#15
I appreciate the effort of doing a proper op. The other thread didn't really make an effort.
Playguuu
Profile Joined April 2010
United States926 Posts
November 30 2011 14:18 GMT
#16
The media likes to sensationalize this kind of stuff, like when they were trying to raise the debt ceiling for the US, claiming the president could just use the 14th amendment section dealing with public debts to raise it himself, when that wasn't true at all. I respect people's concern for our freedoms but it doesn't help to make things up or call the US a police state, when it's actually far, far better than many places around the world.

Regardless thanks for bringing this up.
I used to be just like you, then I took a sweetroll to the knee.
white_horse
Profile Joined July 2010
1019 Posts
November 30 2011 14:19 GMT
#17
nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die
Translator
Hypertension
Profile Joined April 2011
United States802 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-30 14:29:26
November 30 2011 14:24 GMT
#18
On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote:
nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die



So basically we should get rid of the criminal justice system in favor of death squads who hunt down murderers and terrorist sympathizers? Interesting theory.
Buy boots first. Boots good item.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
November 30 2011 14:26 GMT
#19
I reaaaaally like this thread, so I hope it doesn't degenerate off topic.

*coughthetwopostsabove*
Yargh
Days
Profile Joined February 2010
United States219 Posts
November 30 2011 14:31 GMT
#20
On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote:
nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die


Oh America, America! How perfect your people is...
We buy things we don't need, with money we don't have, to impress people we don't like.
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