• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:16
CET 00:16
KST 08:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Evil Geniuses - shutting down14ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier5Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League66Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.167
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? REPORT: StarCraft 2: Remastered In Development Evil Geniuses - shutting down How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted
Tourneys
ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier WORTEX Challenger Series — Open SC2 LAN in Budapes
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands
External Content
Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 548 Shining Bright Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror
Brood War
General
Young Players Tournament Announced by SOOP [Recap] 0-6 Defeat for Mong's Team Do we even care about balance? BW General Discussion Rollback Netcode in Brood War
Tourneys
[ASL22] Grand Finals [$1250] International ShieldBattery League [BSL23] RO24 Group C Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) 50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Armies of Exigo - YesYes? General RTS Discussion Thread Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9308 users

Map Balance and Gameplay Balance Discussion

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 05:05:49
November 28 2011 05:00 GMT
#1
Hey guys!

For a while I sometimes will think to myself "How is it that I can make a balanced map but I can't balance anything in the races?" The question might have popped up for some of you at least once or twice, and at first it feels like a contradiction. I mean, if you know how to balance the game of starcraft, then surely you would know how to make a balanced map, right? But it's the complete opposite. I can present a well-tested, properly-balanced map, but I can't tell you how to fix the marine, and yet somehow I'll know how a marine can be used, or how the marine will benefit more or less to every piece of terrain I create in the map editor.

Why is this? For us map-makers, do we just overlook gameplay balance, look at the everyday use of each race, and say "okay, protoss will usually clump their army up and use force fields, so how do I make this piece of terrain work for them but also for zerg and terran?" Sometimes it boggles me and confuses me a little.

We might take other obvious facts into account, like golds are terran-favored, so don't add golds to your map. Or, don't make the map too open, because that favors zerg, or don't make the map too chokey because it favors protoss. When thinking generally about the overall gameplay on everyday basis, it feels like there are so many restrictions, and therefore makes all oncoming maps extremely standard, generic, and often repetitive (that's a mapping discussion which I will not go into).

Moving on....

So what is the difference between the two perspectives regarding map balance and gameplay balance? Do they have any relationship with each other? Do they inter-connect or correlate in any way? Does one benefit over the other? Does being in diamond, masters, or grand masters really make a significant difference in how you create a map? Does playing really matter at all? I mean, there are a handful of exceptionally balanced maps that were created by bronze and silver players.

So I thought i'd bring this topic to the table of mappers and see what the minds of map-makers have to say about it. When you create a map, how is it that you somehow know that what you're making is balanced? Do you think about how the game is played to further your map-making decisions? Do you play regularly and use replays or your own playing abilities to guide you in your map-making? Or, is it just common to believe what high level players say because somewhere in the back of our minds, they must be correct and therefore that's how we should make maps?

This is an open discussion, and i'd be glad to see what both experienced and novice map-makers have to say.
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
November 28 2011 05:57 GMT
#2
I'm not entirely sure I follow what you're saying.

When I make a map, I follow the general outlines in my head of what is good and what is bad, completely seperating that from balance. Coming from both a BW mapping background and playing at a relatively high skill level, I consider myself pretty good at just knowing what will work and what won't. Of course, I don't know everything but I can generally figure out when a map is good or bad.
Sea_Food
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Finland1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 08:02:25
November 28 2011 08:01 GMT
#3
I think of it this way.
1. Know how each race reacts to each map feature.
2. Know how balanced the game is with the maps currently used.
3. If race X is doing bad, do maps that favor race X more than the current maps.

Map balance follows game balance. Map makers job is (among some other things) to follow game balance with as little desync as possible.

When the game was released zerg was under powered at the maps played at that time. That meaned that map makers had to do maps that favor zergs more that the maps at the time. Had Blizzard made zerg a stronger race, kulas ravine and steppes of war could have very well been balanced.
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
November 28 2011 14:50 GMT
#4
When it comes for maps i like the try and error system, to add and test new features. Right now i feel most people just try to do a balanced map with the things they know are balanced (its getting better though, but most innovations come from blizzard maps, oddly enough and the esv map making team yay).
Because if you want balance to much you end up with a 4 player, cross spawn only, 4 base per player map, which might be balanced to play on, but is totally boring. But i like map features you have to look out for, like a sneak path onto a cliff that goes to your natural, but is blocked by 10 0 mineral patches, so a worker needs to poke at that point for quiet some time till its open.

But it is really hard in sc2 to introduce maps, because most players don't adapt. Having a map is totally shut up for air play, mass mutas are still used, even though it should be obvious for anyone that its bad to use those units. Another reason is that any race can go deathball mode or mass units or even mass air units in every matchup. Well pvt is a bit of an exception since the tank nerf. (which makes map terrible hard to balance that way)

Oh and i liked the gold setup on kulas, its pretty nice idea to deny greedy 3rds if you have drop, but its pretty easy to defend if you have air vision, since range 4 units are enough to snipe everything from it. But since lost temple, every high ground seems to be banned near expansions. and if there are high grounds they are blocked with plants.
Well it was bad on lt. But its still something that favors drop play and makes games more exciting (and in the current state make toss stronger against greedy zerg play, since they could prism canon rush the zergs fast 3rd ) Well its something i liked in bw alot, all the high grounds they had behind the naturals, such awesome ideas.

But its slowly getting better ^.^ and maps really start to look good . Though a good example of removing something rather then editing it till it works, are the golds. Terran can lift early game to the golds, zergs can take it against an expanding toss and free win, rocks would solve that sort of problem hehe. But its sadly not the only problem with golds, lategame if someone fell behind the opponent can take a gold and get more ahead by doing nothing really. (as terran i actually move one base to a gold if i feel like i managed to get a contain)
Soooo ... sad to see golds go, but they are comeback killers.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 16:09:11
November 28 2011 16:08 GMT
#5
maps intrinsically balanced

nearly every mapper follows the guidelines set forth by blizzard maps

there are certain things people shouldn't add to their maps but these are small details in the grand scheme of things

the real problem are the players (read: babies), and tournament organizers to an extent as well
starleague forever
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
08:00
Korean StarCraft League #92
CranKy Ducklings24
Liquipedia
BSL
05:00
RO24 Group C
OyAji vs Nesh
Kyrie vs Aeternum
ZZZero.O198
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 606
Liquid`Hasu 328
ZZZero.O 198
ProTech184
Aegong 37
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm118
League of Legends
JimRising 926
Other Games
summit1g8628
Liquid`RaSZi2410
FrodaN2267
Grubby2072
KnowMe133
Maynarde113
syndereN110
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1940
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 61
• Adnapsc2 32
• RyuSc2 13
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP6
• davetesta3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 11
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3765
• Jankos3197
• Scarra1587
Other Games
• imaqtpie525
• Shiphtur452
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Weekly
12h 44m
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 11h
ByuN vs Lambo
MaxPax vs Bunny
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
3 days
SHIN vs GuMiho
Clem vs Classic
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
GSL
4 days
Epic.LAN
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
Yamato Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - GSC
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
BSL Season 23
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

IPSL Winter 2026-27
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.