EPTThe goal of this thread is to make people think about their race, because we are ZERG not Terran or Protoss. We were the weaklings, the underdogs, and damn did we come up with devious tricks to counter act our starting deficiencies. Now that it is balanced and it is imho(no more zerg underpowered QQ from me untill Terran players figure out that ghosts are fucking amazing) we can utilize much more of the things that make us unique. Such as Hard Tech Switching and insane mobility and hidden tech(Hidden by moving it just outside of the normally placed scans). I want to hear other peoples ideas about things they dont believe are utilized by Zerg enough.
These are things I think are not utilized enough-
Aggression we do not have to be the passive race that we are told to be. Droning up and just macro winning is definitely awesome but can you imagine if in the back of every T or P players mind was Zerg can be feared on the offense.
NYDUS NETWORKS!!!!!!!!!!
I personally use them to punish forge fe with hydras, but have also attempted using them in tandem with doom drops, speedling runbys(since now you control this area get your whole army there). Or using them just passively for expanding to islands and hiding workers switches.
Blord Fake v Terran
This is something i enjoy doing against Terran. If i find myself in the late game and since i generally have a spire since i personally love muta harass i greater spire up and get a couple blords and attack with them. I use this to do a little damage but let me ask you zerg friends what is a common almost automatic response by Terran in this situation? Instantly pumping out as many vikings as they can. So after those first 3-4 blords i have already thrown down an Ultra Cavern and if they do go viking heavy Ultra switch and lawl at the cute flying vikings with nothing to shoot. Also if they do not react in this manner you can kill them with the blords....
Meta-Strategy Rant
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Everyone knows zerg is a reactive race well duh...but think about that it's like something in the back of your head you know but dont really understand or at least i didn't for a while. Yea we counter whatever T and P throw at us i thought well i kno terran like marine tank and i know toss like to use colosus(at the time) so im gonna go mid-game muta sling bling against terran and infestor sling against toss and this worked for me and was good untill i remembered something...Zerg is a reactive race hmmm and the fuel for that reaction is gas and after seeing what a 4 gas switch did i wondered how i could use hard gas switching(to various degrees)from gasless zerg play and found that gosh darnit i feel like way better about my play because no longer am I a slave to what unit comp im going for i kno how much gas ill need for lair tech 4 and i know if i need to switch in some gas earlier i can and now i scout drone and wait and seriously once you try playing this i feel you wont go back to "standard" ZvX you dont have the psychological fear of trying to blind play or go for infestors say only to scout out after you have invested a fair amount in them that he has high temps or the various other sinking feelings when you find out the one thing you werent strong against is what he went...
Build Orders are for other races we evolve based on the conditions imposed on us by outside forces
i thought most zerg think this way and believe alot of you do but didnt realize how someone could have a build order for zerg untill my friend i was coaching asked me whats your build order against terran? And i said i scout and feel it! This is not a new concept I talked with col.Catz outside of MLG Columbus after failing to have a cigarette that he wanted to smoke(menthol the stuck up bastard only smokes menthol >< jk <3 CATZ) but i asked him this pro player sitting at a table with me what should i do in zvz and he said scout and i said lawl of course i scout and if i see a roach warren a cancel my bling nest and build a warren he said then your playing well. I was pleased to say the least and though we differed in views of ultra v blord late game(Im personally a big fan of 3-4 blords into tech switching to ultra ling infestor) it was a good chat i left it feeling better okay im just losing zvz if my blings dont work but at least im playing it right...then i thought alot about it and realized i wasnt scouting well i was but i wasnt continuing to scout and making decisions and what started with zvz went to zvt and zvp where i had always scouted the front but I dunno how to explain it i knew what they were doing but i always felt my strategy would win. Now i remain gass and tech free untill i kno their opening and can construct my build from the begining of the game to counter theirs...
Another Goal I have for this thread is the spreading of zerg ideas and concepts in playing the early game gas free soo please flame me tell me im bad or what not lets get this debate going im really curious as to what you guys think of this...do you already play like this? Think its bad because the open exchange of thoughts and ideas is necessary to better understanding zergs advantages and i believe the ability to build nothing but drones for the first 5-whenever minutes of a match is under utilized and if you think im just a bad not high masters player explain yourself instead of just a simple you should be high masters to post strategy....also check out Nestea on gom and just watch what he does with NOTHING but like 80 drones if Nestea can do it in the GSL you can do it too.
Im high diamond/low masters(so please if you want to just flame me for not being high masters HonOrFace.815 and we can 1v1 even if you win I bet you see the merit of this playstyle) so this can be executed way better and all of this is based off of personal views learned from many games. This style of play requires a vast knowledge of builds by opposing races and scouting the front.(seriously watch the friggin day9 if you dont kno what that means
)ZvT and ZvP
Gasless Zerg is often called the Spanishiwa "Ice Fisher"(mad respect @spanishiwa that post changed my game forever), and 11/18 pool/hatch is often called Destiny build. This is the first problem i believe we need to be rid of as a race...We have no builds!
The first core of my zerg style is fusing these two concepts the fact that 11/18 gets u fast slow lings while keeping up your econ and allows you to scout early and deny their scouting which adds to their deep seeded psychological fear of the unknown and hides the fact you are not taking a single geyser.
Now when you skip gas your vulnerable or are you? Think about the pros It allows u to pump drones and with your initial two zerglings you scout out your oppent fast enough that u can prepare for early attacks in time. You have more queens since u have more drones and mineral spine crawlers become much more effective methods of d since they also do not consume your larvae.
This is where it gets Zen. Build nothing but drones(unless ur vision tells you otherwise) and scout the front with your lings. Get your intell asses how you will deal with it(if it is some sort of harass or pressure) or if they are macroing guess who has the advantage of no geyser and pure mineral income
.Now the reactions are the core of this concept and you will have to find what works for you with ur level of apm. Think to yourself okay this is what hes doing...How much time do you have(imminent harrass like hellions or seeing them set up for a later game)...and how many geysers do I need.
The reactions are up to you totally thats the beauty its you assessing the situation and countering it in your prefered manner just expect some losses in the fine tuning
These are some of my personel reaction that have proven most effective in my laddering....
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Reactor Hellions - 1Gas and a Roach Warren and I found even with constant roach production off your one gas it leaves enough minerals over that you can Drone whenever you dont have gas. Your economy will prevent you from building too much army while yielding plenty of roaches to deny harass
Blue Flame hellions - Same as Reactored Hellions but you gotta be ready to stop box micro your drones(Select drones in danger click stop and then use f1(idle worker) to spread em out) or set up a nice sim city as well.
Stargate Play - Phoenix Play 2 gas and a Macro hatch and bling nest after metaboost watch the way phoenix always plays he was my inspiration for it lol.
Void Ray - I prefer just queens they are good let you spread creep dont cost larvae and are only minerals so they fall in line as perfect defenders. Spore crawlers on scouting a push accompanying the Rays will be necessary but Queens are amazing units(i know this is common knowledge just really like em lol).
The whole concept is being completely reactionary and NOT getting a gas untill you kno exactly what your dealing with.
Now in ZvZ i had another break through playing with a bunch of high diamond players from ladder we all had pretty crazy dumb-all-inish games against one another on ladder. While chatting about how much we hated ZvZ and how for some reason even though we felt solid with the other matchup the hardest matchup was Zerg hands down eveyone felt confident with their micro and early game but all of us felt lost after the 10 minute mark. Lol so i want to give Thornard and Relish the credit they deserve. Thornard 12 pool baneling rushed me knowing i was 15 hatching for the better part of 2 hours it was not the happiest i had been untill the game when i held it
. Just that hold knowing that every game i played it was possible to hold i just had to learn the intricacies of it changed zvz from my least favorite as it was rock paper scissors now to a match up like anyother just with different rules. Every drone matters, spine crawlers are critical and if you get the Hatch up first you hold all the power.Again this may be old news but I read these forums constantly and hadnt seen much on it but 15 hatching in ZvZ is now my prefered way to open.
Let me explain the change of view lol :p
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I can execute my old zvz in my sleep still...from the begining of beta till like 2 weeks ago i thought 14gas14pool 100gas meta nxt 50 bling nest my micro against yours was zvz before it got all gay(I hated roaches for their dumb AI and stubbornly had not used them outside a zvz since the 1supply nerf and hated everything about them...slow,dumb didnt feel like zerg units to me) Then i stopped being bad and hating the game and tried to learn.
I want to say 3 weeks ago i would of told you that no one could open up 15 hatch against my baneling/sling opening without ME fucking it up missing an a ground move and exploding my banelings on a queen or some such nonsense now i kno that my baneling nest will pop not more than wat feels like maybe 10 seconds ill look up timing 2morrow when i have slept but the speed at which you can get zspeed and baneling with a hatch first simply suprised me 15hatch 16extractor 16pool executed perfectly feels damn near impervious against all but a 10 pool(So feel free to challenge me ill gladly get 10 pooled on my 15 hatch to figure out correct response)
I always felt though (unless the kid i was playing went sling/bling with me) that I was working way way way harder and had to play way way way better than the other player to win with it.
Due of course(zerg players you know) to baneling/zling ai instantly attacking a queen and losing my banes or a bunch of zerglings wrapping around the single spine crawler instead of killing drones and roaches shutting it down when positioned properly. I always felt pressured to do damage or I was behind and seeing 3 roaches at the top of a wall just made me want to diaf.
Now i Open 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool every zvz get metabolic boost right with spawning pool(the timings for 100 gas should line up with your pool popping) and bling nest with next 50 all of a sudden im on two bases with a friggin nice economy and the option of sling/bling if i choose it. iIf i see roaches now instead of wondering what i can do i laugh to myself and use speedlings to punish their immobility, sneak banelings into back while running zlings in front and just being the bastard that us zergs are to the other races(or at least my style of zerg :p).
Im not saying im a genius or anything i just want to spread this to those zergs who where were i was in ZvZ friggin loathing it and based on the general ladder opening of "great another zvz im just gonna all in you so it ends fast" I feel like alot of zergs don't understand HOW COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and FUN this matchup is from the other 2.
These are just things i keep in mind the whole game.
YOU CANNOT DRONE LIKE THE OTHER MATCHUPS
but you can still drone hard its just much more precise requires more scouting and a couple defensive blings vs spines or what not. If you ever watch gom-tv you will hear artosis talking about sneaking drones in and i used to believe that meant 2-3 here and there. Seriously i know this sounds common sense and most of you players know this but this is the ONE match up where you do not need 10 more drones to win lol 1 will do the job.
Small things add up! Pick off a drone here with the first four zlings and if u get 3 of em out of the base ur up if u can pick a second drone it doesnt matter if you lose all 4 cause guess how many larvae u cost him and it came from his econ
I want to say 3 weeks ago i would of told you that no one could open up 15 hatch against my baneling/sling opening without ME fucking it up missing an a ground move and exploding my banelings on a queen or some such nonsense now i kno that my baneling nest will pop not more than wat feels like maybe 10 seconds ill look up timing 2morrow when i have slept but the speed at which you can get zspeed and baneling with a hatch first simply suprised me 15hatch 16extractor 16pool executed perfectly feels damn near impervious against all but a 10 pool(So feel free to challenge me ill gladly get 10 pooled on my 15 hatch to figure out correct response)
I always felt though (unless the kid i was playing went sling/bling with me) that I was working way way way harder and had to play way way way better than the other player to win with it.
Due of course(zerg players you know) to baneling/zling ai instantly attacking a queen and losing my banes or a bunch of zerglings wrapping around the single spine crawler instead of killing drones and roaches shutting it down when positioned properly. I always felt pressured to do damage or I was behind and seeing 3 roaches at the top of a wall just made me want to diaf.
Now i Open 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool every zvz get metabolic boost right with spawning pool(the timings for 100 gas should line up with your pool popping) and bling nest with next 50 all of a sudden im on two bases with a friggin nice economy and the option of sling/bling if i choose it. iIf i see roaches now instead of wondering what i can do i laugh to myself and use speedlings to punish their immobility, sneak banelings into back while running zlings in front and just being the bastard that us zergs are to the other races(or at least my style of zerg :p).
Im not saying im a genius or anything i just want to spread this to those zergs who where were i was in ZvZ friggin loathing it and based on the general ladder opening of "great another zvz im just gonna all in you so it ends fast" I feel like alot of zergs don't understand HOW COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and FUN this matchup is from the other 2.
These are just things i keep in mind the whole game.
YOU CANNOT DRONE LIKE THE OTHER MATCHUPS
but you can still drone hard its just much more precise requires more scouting and a couple defensive blings vs spines or what not. If you ever watch gom-tv you will hear artosis talking about sneaking drones in and i used to believe that meant 2-3 here and there. Seriously i know this sounds common sense and most of you players know this but this is the ONE match up where you do not need 10 more drones to win lol 1 will do the job.
Small things add up! Pick off a drone here with the first four zlings and if u get 3 of em out of the base ur up if u can pick a second drone it doesnt matter if you lose all 4 cause guess how many larvae u cost him and it came from his econ
CREATIVE HARRASSMENT
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Or and this is one of my favorite ways to harass against someone who has fast expanded too or just expanded to keep up sneak like 6-8 lings in scout and break away a few while sending the others shift clicked to their deaths or what not because honestly people if u have lings ur base like not enough to kill ur or even damage just just waiting to be cleaned up u attack em with a superior force and spend ur focus on something more important and then when u clean em up u feel secure
( if you can make em escape the base weak but alive its nice but i go back and forth wondering if that sense of safety that comes from having killed them helps lull ur opponent into thinking his base once more is tight and his attention will be elsewhere) and then you get to build banelings hidden in his base
(this is my trademark move and shall be refered to as PHFX Blings)
( if you can make em escape the base weak but alive its nice but i go back and forth wondering if that sense of safety that comes from having killed them helps lull ur opponent into thinking his base once more is tight and his attention will be elsewhere) and then you get to build banelings hidden in his base
(this is my trademark move and shall be refered to as PHFX Blings)
Zerg players unite throw down the restrictive shackles that come from trying to play your race like the other two let nothing but scouting information dictate your game.
SRY ABOUT GRAMMAR GUYS Im really quite tired and went back and edited it for all of you but seriously look at the concepts and theorys and not the package they come in XP
Also 11/18hatch BO is at least for me
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10 Extractor Trick
11 Overlord
@200 minerals Pool
DRONE till 15
Get a Queen and Zling when ur spawning pool pops
Get a Hatch at 18/18
Overlord at 17/18
Drone Brings you back to 18/18
Queen and 2 drones when overlord pops will put you at 22 supply
Overlord 22
11 Overlord
@200 minerals Pool
DRONE till 15
Get a Queen and Zling when ur spawning pool pops
Get a Hatch at 18/18
Overlord at 17/18
Drone Brings you back to 18/18
Queen and 2 drones when overlord pops will put you at 22 supply
Overlord 22
FROM THERE ON OUT ITS SCOUTING
standard reaction against terran
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/12597
This was a reaction in which i attempted to flip the script on a terran in response to scouting
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/12598
This is just my general response to a Forge FE by toss that gets defended(insanity ensues)
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/12600
An example of my standard zvp
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/12601
For zvz i do not know if the 10 pool can be held by 15 hatch it feels like a blind hard counter could use some aid/input on that but here are some examples of standard
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/12602
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/12603
also in zvz i feel like this may be known but i just discovered its power grab like 3 upgrades for roaches simultaneously and hit em right when they are popping like i said may not be saying anything unknown but these were revalations to me and i appreciate any feedback input or any type of replys <3
tldr: Zerg is the best and is reactionary pure and simple;
you do not need gas against other two races untill u scout its need which = more drones i think gaseless builds deserve more exploration and should not just be labled spanishiwa which involves heavy queen spine crawler play, check out pro players like Nestea(3time GSL CHAMP) and Losira(Nesteas Padawan) for two of my favorite players who utilize these extra minerals for insane numbers of drones...
