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After playing a game on Scrap Station it seems that Zerglings may be a little too adept at squeezing between enemy units. Basically I scouted him as he placed a second hatchery in his main and immediately suspected mass Zerglings. Fine, I thought, I'll make some Roaches to block my ramp. However, my ramp was broken on two different attempts. So I decided to analyze my Roach placement.
Here is the first scenario. Notice that the unit circles of my Roaches are all overlapping.I build 7 roaches because the Scrap Station ramp is notoriously large. Theoretically you could cover the ramp with six Roaches in a straight line but I use seven in order to tighten up the gaps even more.
Immediately the Zerglings begin to seep in between the Roaches even though the Roach circles are still overlapping (visible in the pic). Obviously the Roaches are on hold position.
Here is the second scenario. This time I have 9 Roaches with some parts of the ramp having two rows of Roaches protecting it. Nevertheless, the Zerglings once again break in between what probably should be a tight block.
In this picture you can see that the lings are successfully passing through a segment of the ramp with two layers of Roaches.
While the other races can block with buildings, this isn't much of a feasible option for Zerg. Even if I somehow messed up the block (although I can't see how), it's clear that stopping the Zerglings early in the game is ridiculously difficult due to the new pathing.
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You'd be amazed how well you can make zerglings go though units just by right clicking madly past them, i've ran past zealot walls with enough right clicking and zerglings
ofc i've never tested what allows them to go though sometimes and what doesn't
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Canada5565 Posts
I think the bigger the unit the harder it is to make a wall, but that being said it should definitely be possible to create a ling tight wall with units, just harder to do in SCII, positioning has to be perfect I assume
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Yes, I remember making a zeal wall on ramp and lings somehow made it through. It looks like it is the consequence of the new pathing which allows the units to "move away" it's allied units from the way. When mass zerglings attack those in the back start pushing those at the front and they get through like you could get through impassable mineral line with workers.
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i had about 12 rines on a ramp and lings just slipped through and killed me, i hate this ;/ ramps useless
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
this really needs to get fixed :/
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I think Cheerio's explanation makes the most sense. The small collision size of the zergling combined with the unit AI and how units tend to shift a lot more when being pushed probably leads to this (hopefully a) bug.
If this isn't fixed then the days of neat little zergling/zealot lines blocking choke points in pro games are over >:{
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United States7166 Posts
zerglings can go through everything, not just roaches. any unit block ive tried no matter how tight can be passed.
other units can as well but zerglings can easiest
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oh wow, until this gets fixed, Zerg might be dominant for a while
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This is really just a problem with lings I think, but it's a problem all the same. I think it could be easily fixed by adjusting the collision size of the zergling if it's not a bug. If it's a bug, well it needs to be addressed.
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That's pretty ridiculous... but then again, zerglings have so little going for them I feel in SC2 when roaches exist like they do, that maybe giving them some additional harrassment potential isn't that bad.
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Ramps are so useless right now for so many reasons.
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Canada5565 Posts
On March 11 2010 06:19 koreasilver wrote:
Ramps are so useless right now for so many reasons.
I've seen them used really effectively against roach pushes, but anyways, yeah, units should be able to make walls. for sures.
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United States263 Posts
On March 11 2010 06:19 koreasilver wrote:
Ramps are so useless right now for so many reasons.
tell that to the 200/200 terran that i rolled with 140 supply toss by cliff jumping into his base after he pushed his units down his ramp. A ramp is a choke, stop trying to block with units if buildings can block just fine. and wtf the ramp on scrapyard is huge...if you have enough roaches to cover the entire width of that shit how are you not picking off most of the zerglings?
oh and solution: put zerglings between your roaches maybe that will work ha. plug a zergling hole with a zergling.
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So, this will probably develop into an SC2 technique similar to all the ones that evolved from SC1. Unless it becomes completely broken, I say have fun with it. It's more realistic, too.
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On March 11 2010 06:24 [uci] Fizik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 06:19 koreasilver wrote:
Ramps are so useless right now for so many reasons. tell that to the 200/200 terran that i rolled with 140 supply toss by cliff jumping into his base after he pushed his units down his ramp. A ramp is a choke, stop trying to block with units if buildings can block just fine. and wtf the ramp on scrapyard is huge...if you have enough roaches to cover the entire width of that shit how are you not picking off most of the zerglings?
Your first sentence isn't relevant at all, and there should be a distinction between a ramp and a choke. As it is now, the moment you have vision, there is no disadvantage in attacking up a ramp at all.
Yeah, and a Zerg is going to block a ramp with buildings just fine, aren't they.
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On March 11 2010 06:17 Chairman Ray wrote:
oh wow, until this gets fixed, Zerg might be dominant for a while
No, zerglings got such a huge nerf in sc2 from sc1, their uber pathing is the only thing going for them. What happened is that they attack almost half as fast as before so zerglings really aren't scary at all now. Before 1 zergling gave ~the same dps as a zealot, now a zealot deals twice the dps of a ling, if everything else stayed the same zerglings would be 100% useless.
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Ah, just another reason something needs to be done about collision size for the entire game -_-.
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Another reason why zerglings aren't as hot is that a lot of units have fairly beefy armor off the bat. roach, for example, has 2- which is the key to why they rock zerglings so very, very hard.
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The way that SC2 handles collision makes it impossible to block with units.
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