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indigoawareness wrote:
Sm3agol wrote:
Welcome back, guys.
jdseemoreglass wrote:qrs, I hope at some point you can offer up a brief list of the lines you guys consider optimal for both sides. I've got midterms this week and I don't have as much time to look through this all, and plus you guys are offering a LOT of lines and analysis. At least this is much better than when people were repeating "book, book, book" 
Good luck on the midterms, bro. 
Edit: How do I always get the first message on a new page...
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Reminders sent out about the extra day. Very tired now.
League of Legends, here I come.
Have fun guys. I will quickly post the graphs and tomorrow I'll try to reply to your move quick.
PS: Also please feel free to PM me if anything is up. I'll get back to you when I can.
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We have 9 hours left on this move, right?
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On October 07 2011 12:40 Ng5 wrote:
League of Legends, here I come.
I am disappoint 
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My vote goes for 14. Nxe4.
+ Show Spoiler +If 14...dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7 16. 0-0 and 17. f3 should be to our advantage, no?
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I haven't been keeping up with the analysis, so I am going to abstain from voting this round. glhf!
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On October 07 2011 10:05 dtvu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 05:30 qrs wrote:On October 07 2011 05:01 greggy wrote:
Also, can someone quote me a line where white doesn't lose after Nxe4? I don't get why we're still going over it when time after time it's been shown that white either loses the extra pawn or loses outright trying to cling to it. (hope you don't mind my taking that out of spoilers: since it went into no details I thought it was all right to give it a little more visibility) The latest version of your very own line seems to work out all right, at least in my opinion (jdseemoreglass was a bit more skeptical last he posted).There's also another line that I've considered looking into + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7/f5 16. f4 but so long as there's a different main line which is looking all right, I haven't spent much time looking at that at all, so I can't say whether or not it shows promise. (edit: on first look, it's not looking good. Don't spend your time analyzing that for now: the lines which are being claimed as good for White are the one linked in my first paragraph and the one that mastergriggy is currently advocating [though I can't say I love the way his current final position looks (and neither does he)].) Finally, jdseemoreglass says that + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4
One plan here is jd's Na5 followed by b4. Another is Ne3 followed by d5. works out well for White. If he's right (and I didn't notice any holes when I looked it over), then a lot of our problems are taken care of. On the other hand, jdseemoreglass (who voted for 14. 0-0) sees problems in the line + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7
The key advantage for 15...Bb7 over 15...f5, for Black, is that while both moves accomplish Black's goal of guarding the e4 pawn, 15....Bb7 serves the additional purpose of strengthening Black's control over d5. In various lines, this translates into a crucial tempo. If he's right, then this is the line we should be looking for answers to. If the line linked in the first paragraph works out, then we're fine; otherwise I'd say that jd's second line is the next priority to look at for good moves for White (or, if you're in a tearing-down mood, then his first line, to look for good moves for Black). Of course none of this precludes posting analysis on earlier alternatives like 14. 0-0 (or even 14. b3, maybe). TL; DR: just read the blue sentence. Going Along the line That jdseemoreglass is worried about: + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7 , I believe the response + Show Spoiler + should nullify the threat. The continuation as I see it is: + Show Spoiler +16... f5 17.fxe4 fxe5 18. Nb3 Bd5 19. Nc5! Kc6 20. b4 We will be in an alright position. In your line, I'm afraid we lose a pawn+ Show Spoiler +after19...Bxc5 20. dxc5 Ke6.
I don't see a way to save the e-pawn at that point. The only piece that can defend it is the Bishop, but if it leaves c1, then Black can play ...Rxb2.
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On October 07 2011 10:05 dtvu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 05:30 qrs wrote:On October 07 2011 05:01 greggy wrote:
Also, can someone quote me a line where white doesn't lose after Nxe4? I don't get why we're still going over it when time after time it's been shown that white either loses the extra pawn or loses outright trying to cling to it. (hope you don't mind my taking that out of spoilers: since it went into no details I thought it was all right to give it a little more visibility) The latest version of your very own line seems to work out all right, at least in my opinion (jdseemoreglass was a bit more skeptical last he posted).There's also another line that I've considered looking into + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7/f5 16. f4 but so long as there's a different main line which is looking all right, I haven't spent much time looking at that at all, so I can't say whether or not it shows promise. (edit: on first look, it's not looking good. Don't spend your time analyzing that for now: the lines which are being claimed as good for White are the one linked in my first paragraph and the one that mastergriggy is currently advocating [though I can't say I love the way his current final position looks (and neither does he)].) Finally, jdseemoreglass says that + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4
One plan here is jd's Na5 followed by b4. Another is Ne3 followed by d5. works out well for White. If he's right (and I didn't notice any holes when I looked it over), then a lot of our problems are taken care of. On the other hand, jdseemoreglass (who voted for 14. 0-0) sees problems in the line + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7
The key advantage for 15...Bb7 over 15...f5, for Black, is that while both moves accomplish Black's goal of guarding the e4 pawn, 15....Bb7 serves the additional purpose of strengthening Black's control over d5. In various lines, this translates into a crucial tempo. If he's right, then this is the line we should be looking for answers to. If the line linked in the first paragraph works out, then we're fine; otherwise I'd say that jd's second line is the next priority to look at for good moves for White (or, if you're in a tearing-down mood, then his first line, to look for good moves for Black). Of course none of this precludes posting analysis on earlier alternatives like 14. 0-0 (or even 14. b3, maybe). TL; DR: just read the blue sentence. Going Along the line That jdseemoreglass is worried about: + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7 , I believe the response + Show Spoiler + should nullify the threat. The continuation as I see it is: + Show Spoiler +16... f5 17.fxe4 fxe5 18. Nb3 Bd5 19. Nc5! Kc6 20. b4 We will be in an alright position.
wat? I think you messed up your notation....+ Show Spoiler +
16... f5 17.fxe4 fxe5 18. Nb3 Bd5 19. Nc5! Kc6 20. b4
how did that happen...there nothing that black can use to take the e5 pawn. Since you play f5, how can there be anything to attack the e5 pawn? Mind sharing?
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On October 07 2011 09:48 jdseemoreglass wrote:qrs, I hope at some point you can offer up a brief list of the lines you guys consider optimal for both sides. I've got midterms this week and I don't have as much time to look through this all, and plus you guys are offering a LOT of lines and analysis. At least this is much better than when people were repeating "book, book, book" I don't think I'll be around much in the next couple of days either, so I probably won't update this, but here's the state of the analysis to the best of my knowledge:
Move 14 Analysis Summary
I bit off more than I could chew here: this summary starts off ambitiously but as it goes on it gets much more concise. Still, I think this covers most of it.
Moves that have been voted for or suggested
+ Show Spoiler [14. Nxe4 (dxe4)] ++ Show Spoiler [Themes of 14. Nxe4 (dxe4)] +After 14. Nxe4, 14...dxe4 is essentially forced. This clears the d-file while our pawn is still on d4, with two important results: - We have the potential of playing d5 at various points in the future, particularly in response to ...c5.
- Black has an additional avenue of attack against the d-pawn with ...Rd8
These two results of 14...dxe4, one to our benefit and one to Black's, are more or less the defining characteristics of the position, in my opinion. They set up the critical struggle for the d-pawn: specifically, Black looks to eliminate the d-pawn before we can play d5, and we look to play d5 before Black can eliminate the d-pawn. Note that, although Nxe4 can likely be played on a later move (although Black has the option to rule out that possibility by playing 14...Nxd2, arguably if he wanted to avoid Nxe4, he would have played 13...Nxd2) after other 14th moves for White, Black might very well play an immediate ...c5, forcing the exchange of the d-pawn before d5 becomes an option. Thus the themes centering around the struggle for d5 and the d-pawn are uniquely relevant to 14. Nxe4. Main Line(s) After 14. Nxe4, 14...dxe4 may be taken for granted, as Black must recapture the Knight. This move threatens our Nf3, forcing it to move or be lost. Leaving aside 15. Nh4 which simply drops the Knight, the Knight has three possible moves: + Show Spoiler [15. Ng5] +Main Lines - 15...Bxg5 16. Bxg5 Rxb2, regaining the pawn for Black.
- See greggy's analysis here and here for lines where Black plays 15...f5 instead.
+ Show Spoiler [Themes of 15. Nd2] +This move has pros and cons. It attacks Black's e4 pawn, forcing him to spend a move in defending it with 15...f5 or 15...Bb7, which he might not otherwise have wanted to play at this point. It continues to threaten e4, which slightly reduces Black's options due to his need to keep the pawn defended (e.g. after 15...Bb7, he is not free to play 16...Ba6). It defends the b3 square, in theory allowing us the oppprtunity of playing b3 (although this move has not come up in any posted lines) and discouraging such potential Black moves as ...Rb3 or (later) ...Bb3. It preserves the opportunity of castling Kingside without having to spend another turn moving the Knight. It offers the potential opportunities of Nc4 and Nb3 (the benefits of which will be discussed when they come up in the lines). On the other hand, it blocks in the c1 Bishop, which in turn blocks in the a1 Rook, potentially increasing the time it will take to extricate these pieces (it should be noted that it only potentially increases the time, as for the moment the Bishop is stuck on c1 anyway, due to the need to protect b2; furthermore, if the Bishop is (in the future) played to b2, then the Knight on d2 will be irrelevant to the Bishop) as well as restricting the Bishop's scope. It doesn't offer the opportunity of Ne2 (the benefits of which will be discussed when it comes up in the lines). Main Lines After 15. Nd2, the Knight threatens Black's e4 pawn, forcing him to defend it if he doesn't wish to lose it (although SheaR619 briefly contemplated the possibility of Black's sacrificing the e4 pawn, no one has seriously considered that to be a plausible option: not only does it give away a second pawn, but the e4 pawn in particular is a very valuable asset to Black's position here, and it's very unlikely that he would simply write it off.) He has two ways to do this: + Show Spoiler [15...f5] ++ Show Spoiler [15...Bb7] +Looks bad for White. Last post on the subject is here. Originally, 15...f5 was considered to be Black's best by greggy, EvilNalu, and qrs (me) and thus received nearly all of the analysis. Later, jdseemore posted his opinion that 15...Bb7 was the stronger move for Black, along with some analysis in support of that opinion, and since then 15...Bb7 has received some attention as well. Based on the most recent state of analysis, 15...Bb7 is the move that currently seems best. Most recent line is here. Originally, 15. Nd2 was assumed to be White's best and thus received nearly all the attention. Far more analysis has been done on 15. Nd2 than on any other 15th move in this position. With time, however, questions were raised about this move were found difficult to address, at which point much of the analysis shifted to greggy's discovery of 15. Ng1. greggy advocated 15. Ng5 for a time. However, it offers our opponent the chance to immediately regain his pawn , should he choose (see Main Lines). For that reason, it has not been much considered. Based on the most recent state of analysis, 15. Ng1 is the move that currently seems best. The most recent line leads to + Show Spoiler [position] +[center]After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Ng1 a5 16. Ne2 Ba6 17. Nc3 Ke6 18. Nxe4 Rhd8 19. Nc3 Rxd4 20. f4.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ExfPi.png) Black to playwith mixed assessments: jdseemoreglass gives the edge to Black, qrs (me) gives the edge to White, and no one else has expressed an opinion yet.
+ Show Spoiler [14. 0-0] +A popular choice, but little analysis posted. jdseemoreglass posted a small bit of general analysis here.
+ Show Spoiler [14. b4] +Considered to be met by 14...a5. See here.
+ Show Spoiler [14. b3] +The general idea behind this move is to leave a Knight on d2 to defend b3 and to develop the Bishop to b7. It has received no analysis.
+ Show Spoiler [Summary of analysis] +Nearly all of the attention has been given to 14. Nxe4 and 14. 0-0. Of these, by far more analysis has been posted for 14. Nxe4. That doesn't mean that people necessarily consider it best: the voting's been more or less split between this move and 14. 0-0 with a slight edge to the latter. Rather, I think it reflects two things: - 14. Nxe4, generally speaking, seems like a slightly more ambitious/risky move than 14. 0-0: it tries for a little more of an edge, and as a result it also makes us a little more vulnerable. Therefore analysis on this line is more critical: we have more to gain from this move and also more to lose.
- There's a feedback cycle with posted analysis: when someone posts a line, other people post responses to it. Therefore, once a move gets some posted analysis to begin with, analysis tends to breed analysis, especially if the results are unclear.
14. b4 was mooted early on, but was essentially dismissed from most people's consideration after greggy pointed out the Black response of 14...a5. It got one vote. 14. b3 was suggested by qrs (me) as a plausible option, but has received neither analysis nor votes.
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Amazing summary qrs. That's exactly what we needed - I must admit I was starting to get a little lost with all the variations.
+ Show Spoiler +In your main line 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Ng1 a5 16. Ne2 Ba6 17. Nc3 Ke6 18. Nxe4 Rhd8 19. Nc3 Rxd4 20. f4. I think black has a couple of attractive options:
First, simply 20...f6 and 21.exf6 is forced. After 21...Bxf6 I don't see any great plan for white to untangle. Black is threatening stuff like 22...Rd3, white can't develop his rooks or bishop.
20...g5 is more challenging and looks to blow white's position apart before he has time to consolidate. 21.fxg5 Rg4 leaves white with nothing but unpalatable options. 22.h4 Rxg2 and white is totally paralyzed, black will take e5 at his leisure. 22.g3 Bxg5 and now b2 and e5 are in danger. Note that the defensive try 21.g3 is crushed by 21...gxf4 because 22.gxf4 allows Bh4#.
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Thanks for the summary qrs, it really helps especially since I don't really have time to go through every post.
+ Show Spoiler [analysis] +Regarding one of the lines you posted for 14.Nxe4 dxe4 15.Ng1 I think I found an improvement for black
Based on the most recent state of analysis, 15. Ng1 is the move that currently seems best. The most recent line leads to
- Hide Spoiler [position] -
[center]After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Ng1 a5 16. Ne2 Ba6 17. Nc3 Ke6 18. Nxe4 Rhd8 19. Nc3 Rxd4 20. f4.
Black to play
with mixed assessments: jdseemoreglass gives the edge to Black, qrs (me) gives the edge to White, and no one else has expressed an opinion yet.
After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Ng1 a5 16. Ne2 Ba6 17. Nc3 black doesn't have to give up the pawn, he can simply play 17...Bd3 to defend it and we have taken 3 knight moves to put our knight on c3 with no obvious way to recover the pawn. ![[image loading]](http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/8048/99671293.png) here we will have to expend a bunch of moves to attack the pawn, perhaps something like 18.Kd2 although then black can play 18...Bg5+ 19.Kd1 Bxc1, where we can play 20.Rxc1 and give up the b2 pawn, or Kxc1 and defend the pawn in an entirely passive position, neither of which I like. position after 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Ng1 a5 16. Ne2 Ba6 17. Nc3 Bd3 18.Kd2 Bg5 19.Kd1 Bxc1 20.Kxc1 ![[image loading]](http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6703/26707673.png) so 18.Kd2 is bad, but we could play 18.f3 instead 18...exf3 19.gxf3 then perhaps black could play 20...Ke6, 20...Bh4+ or 20...g5 20...Ke6 21.Rg1 (or 21.Kd2 Bc4) 22...something (not 22...g5 23.Bxg5 Bxg5 24.Rxg5 Rxb2 25.d5+ Kd7 26.Rd1 and suddenly our position is a lot more active than it was a few moves ago) 20...Bh4+ 21.Kd2 Bc4 22.Ke3 (not 22.Rg1 Bf2 23.Rg4 (to defend the pawn) h5 24.Re4) Ke6 23.Rg1 g6 is kind of complicated, although black didn't really achieve much by playing Bh4, so there is probably a better move 20...g5 21.Rg1 h6 22.Rg2 (to defend the b2 pawn and liberate our bishop)
ok time to eat something lol, I'll just post this as is, maybe you guys can see something wrong with it. Meanwhile I'm still not sure what to vote for haha
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Qrs good summary, but I did address Greggy's second point + Show Spoiler +His response to my move drops a rook for him. In this post: here
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14.0-0
+ Show Spoiler +I like jdseemoreglass' analysis of this move, to aim to play Re1->e3 and control the 3rd rank
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I have tried to read all the analysis, I started from page 83. But I got exhausted long before the end. Thanks to Qrs, EvilNalu, Greggy and mastergriggy, it was really interesting to read your analyses. Even with the summary of Qrs, I feel overwhelmed by the possibilities so I'm going to abstain for this round.
Hopefully I can manage to follow the flow of the lines next round!
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Taking a walk down the docks. Might not be back exactly by deadline time.
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Came home just in time.
Dealine's over then.
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14. O-O
Won. I need a little time to go over all the lines I prepared in my head, so I chose to post it tomorrow. Earlier than midnight, so you will still have a good chunk of the weekend for analysis.
Everything is updated, too.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KYueT.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zqqPd.png)
