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On January 18 2013 01:28 Naeth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 02:58 spinesheath wrote:
Just learn C++. C is used only in some rare and very specific circumstances nowadays. This is not really true. It is certainly valid in game programming and similar high-level, high-complexity programming endeavours. Moreover, having learned C++ you won't have too hard a time understanding C, so "just learn C++" is sound advice. But C is still used all over the place, mostly for academic or low-level purposes like kernel programming, drivers or any number of obscure CASs. Heck, people still use FORTRAN...
Things like kernel programming and drivers fall under "rare circumstances" in my book. These things don't make up a huge percentage of code produced these days. You also aren't very likely to get a job in that field unless you have significant programming experience.
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Yes, this is mostly open source and academic stuff. No standard programming job. Also the classification as rare circumstances is fair enough, see my edit on the previous page. 
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Well, sure, C is still used a lot, but it's mainly because people have to work with existing C code. New C projects are the rare ones.
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Wow, really really useful, thanks a lot for your effort
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I love how EVERY time people get hung up on language choices. C/C++ are pretty much the "standards" currently in the industry. Also, what I've found is that languages like C tends to keep programmers "honest" and teach the subtle art of actually managing the smallest detail in their code.
Personally I used to hate Java, (ironically I fell in love with C# from the get go) but I was "forced" to pick it up for UNI and now I pretty much prefer to use it for almost anything. Personally I did learn programming on C64 Basic and machine language, that was fun. . . And to this day I value the lessons I learned from the "low level" programming and am often able to do stuff more efficiently with higher level languages just because I know what happens under the hood.
So to point, forget the language and learn the art of programming, study the math and understand the algorithms
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On January 20 2013 06:12 RGnt wrote:I love how EVERY time people get hung up on language choices. C/C++ are pretty much the "standards" currently in the industry. Also, what I've found is that languages like C tends to keep programmers "honest" and teach the subtle art of actually managing the smallest detail in their code. Personally I used to hate Java, (ironically I fell in love with C# from the get go) but I was "forced" to pick it up for UNI and now I pretty much prefer to use it for almost anything. Personally I did learn programming on C64 Basic and machine language, that was fun. . . And to this day I value the lessons I learned from the "low level" programming and am often able to do stuff more efficiently with higher level languages just because I know what happens under the hood. So to point, forget the language and learn the art of programming, study the math and understand the algorithms
The more details you have to manage, the more mistakes you WILL make. There is a reason the programming world has moved to higher level languages over time. When C came out (a high level language at the time), a lot of people said it's no good, proper programming can only be done in ASM. You know how that one ended.
Learning how to program properly is important, but knowledge of low level programming is actually not required for that; the same principles can be applied at all levels of abstraction.
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On January 18 2013 01:28 Naeth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 02:58 spinesheath wrote:
Just learn C++. C is used only in some rare and very specific circumstances nowadays. This is not really true. It is certainly valid in game programming and similar high-level, high-complexity programming endeavours. Moreover, having learned C++ you won't have too hard a time understanding C, so "just learn C++" is sound advice. But C is still used all over the place, mostly for academic or low-level purposes like kernel programming, drivers or any number of obscure CASs. Heck, people still use FORTRAN... Edit: Pondering whether my stated uses of C would qualify as "rare and very specific" circumstances, I decided to restate my point: Among all languages C may have a rather low market share today, but compared to just C++ the difference is not as big as one might think. Googling for some numbers on that statement I was surprised to find that the difference is even smaller than I assumed, see this article (10/2011). Of course, there are no really reliable numbers. Plus it's not even clear what we are trying to measure here. How is "market share" defined for programming languages? :S Nonetheless, the graphic is interesting – especially the "job postings" bar.
It's "somewhat" true.
A lot of people in this topic are talking as from the perspective of a "game developer" as a developer building a full game engine for a game from scratch, but honestly that's not really commonplace in todays industry.
Today being a "game developer" could mean so many multitudes of different jobs, with more of them NOT about programming than the ones that are.
So the statement of "Just learn C++. C is used only in some rare and very specific circumstances nowadays." is sometimes true, but very misleading. If you are going to be a professional game developer (assuming not for your own development team) you will be joining a team that often has an engine of choice already. Contrary to popular belief, these days the engine for most games are NOT made specifically for the game. Most game development companies already have either game engines they already licensed, or they have one that their company designed specifically for the game itself. This means the language you have to know is mostly dependent on the engine you are using, and often times it's not C++, since in a professional atmosphere time = money and you want to develop in as little time as possible. Many times you need to learn a language specific to the engine itself.
Also it's not common knowledge that one of the most common jobs for game programmers these days are actually tool programmers, rather than programmers of the actual game. And its these peoples job to make editors for the game for the other "programmers" to design the gameplay itself. In terms of Starcraft, think of it as you were the person to make the Galaxy editor. Once the editor is done, the further programming work is just functions that are not already available in the editor that someone on the team needs.
Basically any game that's designed with a potential sequel in mind (most games these days) require tool programmers who are adept in the specific engine, rather than broad C++ programmers, since they make sequels much more profitable since you only need new media and minimal amounts of work on everything else. Even if you are an expert in C++ on a C++ based engine, there will still be a longer learning curve than someone who is adept in the engine and only mediocre in their C++ knowledge.
Also, if you want a job in the game industry you need to have a more specific specialty nowdays. You may be a graphics programmer specialized in shaders, you may be an engine programmer (but there arent as many of these as there used to be anymore), you may be the already mentioned tool programmer, you may specialize in optimization and trying to understand and smooth out the complexities of the game engine, you may be a network programmer, or you may specialize in adding and/or balancing game logic to an already existing game stage/level/world and do a very minimal amount of programming (which actually is the job many of the programmers who design the combat systems in games).
So to sum things up, C++ "helps" to know, or at least be familiar with, but it's a bit misleading to say C++ is used more than any other language. C/C#/various scripting languages are actually coming up in the world since tool programmers are becoming more mainstream. I wouldn't advise specializing in a specific programming language though.
My advice to anyone who wants to be a game designer? Do a little shopping on various engines and learn a few of them. You will need to learn a couple different languages based on the engine you join, and it would be good to make sure one of them is C++ focused, but also learn some that are not. You will see the things they have in common with each other, and you will also be able to easily pinpoint the strengths and weaknesses of each language. But more importantly you will learn how to program specific to game development, and learn how real development works in an existing game engine. Once you do this you will probably find what specialty you like and this will enable you to be able to find out what role you would try to find in a professional development team. Furthermore, if you decide you actually want to be an engine programmer, you won't be able to create a very good engine without knowing where the bar is set for a game engine. Once you know the in's an out's of different engines, you will know what you feel you could improve on in your own engine, as well have a long list of your favorite features you encountered in each of the engines you used in the process.
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Not into programming or game development at all but this was a great article, thank you.
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On February 12 2013 11:29 IRL_Sinister wrote:
Not into programming or game development at all but this was a great article, thank you.
Awe thanks! That's great to hear 
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On January 26 2013 14:07 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 01:28 Naeth wrote:On December 08 2012 02:58 spinesheath wrote:
Just learn C++. C is used only in some rare and very specific circumstances nowadays. This is not really true. It is certainly valid in game programming and similar high-level, high-complexity programming endeavours. Moreover, having learned C++ you won't have too hard a time understanding C, so "just learn C++" is sound advice. But C is still used all over the place, mostly for academic or low-level purposes like kernel programming, drivers or any number of obscure CASs. Heck, people still use FORTRAN... Edit: Pondering whether my stated uses of C would qualify as "rare and very specific" circumstances, I decided to restate my point: Among all languages C may have a rather low market share today, but compared to just C++ the difference is not as big as one might think. Googling for some numbers on that statement I was surprised to find that the difference is even smaller than I assumed, see this article (10/2011). Of course, there are no really reliable numbers. Plus it's not even clear what we are trying to measure here. How is "market share" defined for programming languages? :S Nonetheless, the graphic is interesting – especially the "job postings" bar. It's "somewhat" true. A lot of people in this topic are talking as from the perspective of a "game developer" as a developer building a full game engine for a game from scratch, but honestly that's not really commonplace in todays industry. Today being a "game developer" could mean so many multitudes of different jobs, with more of them NOT about programming than the ones that are. So the statement of "Just learn C++. C is used only in some rare and very specific circumstances nowadays." is sometimes true, but very misleading. If you are going to be a professional game developer (assuming not for your own development team) you will be joining a team that often has an engine of choice already. Contrary to popular belief, these days the engine for most games are NOT made specifically for the game. Most game development companies already have either game engines they already licensed, or they have one that their company designed specifically for the game itself. This means the language you have to know is mostly dependent on the engine you are using, and often times it's not C++, since in a professional atmosphere time = money and you want to develop in as little time as possible. Many times you need to learn a language specific to the engine itself. Also it's not common knowledge that one of the most common jobs for game programmers these days are actually tool programmers, rather than programmers of the actual game. And its these peoples job to make editors for the game for the other "programmers" to design the gameplay itself. In terms of Starcraft, think of it as you were the person to make the Galaxy editor. Once the editor is done, the further programming work is just functions that are not already available in the editor that someone on the team needs. Basically any game that's designed with a potential sequel in mind (most games these days) require tool programmers who are adept in the specific engine, rather than broad C++ programmers, since they make sequels much more profitable since you only need new media and minimal amounts of work on everything else. Even if you are an expert in C++ on a C++ based engine, there will still be a longer learning curve than someone who is adept in the engine and only mediocre in their C++ knowledge. Also, if you want a job in the game industry you need to have a more specific specialty nowdays. You may be a graphics programmer specialized in shaders, you may be an engine programmer (but there arent as many of these as there used to be anymore), you may be the already mentioned tool programmer, you may specialize in optimization and trying to understand and smooth out the complexities of the game engine, you may be a network programmer, or you may specialize in adding and/or balancing game logic to an already existing game stage/level/world and do a very minimal amount of programming (which actually is the job many of the programmers who design the combat systems in games). So to sum things up, C++ "helps" to know, or at least be familiar with, but it's a bit misleading to say C++ is used more than any other language. C/C#/various scripting languages are actually coming up in the world since tool programmers are becoming more mainstream. I wouldn't advise specializing in a specific programming language though. My advice to anyone who wants to be a game designer? Do a little shopping on various engines and learn a few of them. You will need to learn a couple different languages based on the engine you join, and it would be good to make sure one of them is C++ focused, but also learn some that are not. You will see the things they have in common with each other, and you will also be able to easily pinpoint the strengths and weaknesses of each language. But more importantly you will learn how to program specific to game development, and learn how real development works in an existing game engine. Once you do this you will probably find what specialty you like and this will enable you to be able to find out what role you would try to find in a professional development team. Furthermore, if you decide you actually want to be an engine programmer, you won't be able to create a very good engine without knowing where the bar is set for a game engine. Once you know the in's an out's of different engines, you will know what you feel you could improve on in your own engine, as well have a long list of your favorite features you encountered in each of the engines you used in the process.
Depends on the platform.
Go to Gamasutra jobs offers regarding programming for AAA companies (i.e : working on mainstream high profile console/PC games), pretty much every one of them reads "Strong C++ skill required".
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2 really successful indie games are made by xna - bastion and terraria.
i'm just wondering if the makers of those games have to pay special licensing fee to microsoft for using xna as their framework.
Since the game is for profit and i assume the majority of the game is completed in xna since it wasn't mentioned other wise.
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Just wanted to say thanks for the tips, following your education has reminded me of a lot of stuff I have not used for quite a while.
Also, to beat a long dead horse, in defense of C:
Think about how many computers you own. One, two, maybe a laptop in addition? But really you own many more. If you have a car you own many separate computers inside it. Your TV, DVD, etc all are full of processors in some cases more than one. And now we want our fridge etc. to talk to our phones or the internet adding more chips. Someone has to write all the code that goes in those processors. And they need it to be fast and efficient. Depending on the application a cheaper chip with more processing or memory constraints might save hundreds on every unit sold. There are embedded applications that have fancy OS layers or that are built in object oriented languages but the bulk of the work I have seen is straight up C. Since the code you are writing needs to execute perfectly, hundreds of times a second for up to 50 years there is little room for tricky implementations that save a few lines of text but are twenty times harder for other engineers to understand.
I studied C++, and many other languages in school and was able to shift to C pretty easily, the important thing is learning concepts behind the syntax, keeping your code readable, maintainable and well architected.
Not to be a downer but I'd have a backup plan. I have several friends who work on AAA titles that are some of the top grossing in history on the art side and they make modest livings and have seen most of their coworkers and occasionally themselves laid off. Replaced by unpayed interns or outsourced. This can happen in any industry but games like movies have a lot of talented people fighting for a few jobs which means employers can really treat ya like crap without a second thought. Go for your dream but don't be so focused that you can't do something boring as well to pay the rent.
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xna is free as far as i know.
Microsoft sells their visual studio ultimate license and gives me a whole lot of tools to play with without bothering me for money, at least thats the deal i think i have with them.
Also, these languages are made to be understood by humans, if you want to learn C++, just do it, its not hard, even as a first language.
C# is another good one, its very productive.
If you go to a university, they make you lean java anyways, i dont know what is it with academics and their java.
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EPT
