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On August 31 2012 14:26 BlackMamba24 wrote:
I wouldn't policy lynch someone abstaining. From my perspective, at least personally, there's not much reason for mafia to abstain from voting so early. It isn't suspicious to hold onto your vote until later in the day unless someone is really in the hot seat, so what's the point of an early abstain? Maybe a really new mafia player would do it.
Personally, as scum, I love policy lynches that aren't "Lynch All Liars". If the town lynches based on policy and not behaviors and inconsistencies then mafia can hide behind the policy lynch and kill townies day in and day out.
There's no serious reason for a townie to abstain from voting besides the fear of voting for the wrong person or a general lack of interest in the game, something that is less common with scum. Newer scum players also have a team to advise them on how to act whereas a newer or less confident townie can only rely on his or her own judgment.
Are scum given safe roleclaims or specific town-aligned role names?
Two things here:
1) Black who are your top reads in the game so far?
Personally, as scum, I love policy lynches that aren't "Lynch All Liars".
2) Why would you as scum dislike lynch all liars over other types of policy lynches?
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On August 31 2012 14:30 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 11:58 Hapahauli wrote:On August 31 2012 11:40 Hopeless1der wrote:
Zeph is likely to take care of any actual lurking, but Hapa is right. If I'm too silent for too long, I expect to hear about it, preferably before I'm policy lynched for it. I'll apply the same principle to everyone else in the game. Actually waaaaait a minute here. Are you suggesting that you'll be lurky or something? Surely you shouldn't be worried about "reminders" or whatnot if you're indeed pro-town and intend to post? ##Vote Hopeless1der I'm saying I don't want to die, least of all to a policy lynch. I'd anticipate that most. if not all the players, would agree with that general sentiment. If people think I'm lurking, I don't want them to just lynch me with no discussion, I'd rather have the opportunity to make my thoughts known so that I could at least give the town something useful besides my flip. I want to make the most informed decision on who to lynch, instead of lynching by policy and getting very little out of it.
I think Hopeless is saying something quite townish here. He's saying that he hopes people will warn him if he's lurking instead of just hammering him. Hapa, why are you turning his call for a warning shot into a suggestion that he will lurk? This is twisting something perfectly townish into a scum read, and then voting him on it.
You weren't like this in XXIII (when you flipped Cop), indeed, there, you refrained from making a D1 vote until the very last 2 hours prior to lynch. And in this game, there are a whole bunch more lurkers/bad townies at this point in time for you to list out/go after than Hopeless or any of your shortlisted names in XXIII.
So why would you go for it this time?
FoS Hapahauli
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Checking out of this thread. Will be back tomorrow morning.
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Because unlike other policy lynches, lying is something only mafia need to do. Town lurks just as often as scum do, the vote abstaining thing doesn't mean much, but when someone gets caught in an outright lie they need to justify it rigorously and if they can't they are probably scum. The only time I wouldn't immediately vote for someone caught lying is in some really really strange closed setup. I remember in Arkham Asylum scum there were probably more lying townies than scum because people try to set traps with their roles and it never works.
Lying is more directly meaningful. If you vote just for lurkers, the mafia can congregate and influence the vote to lynch a town-aligned lurker so I don't think it helps much. You have to consider content first.
Anyway, it's too early for me to say if I have any reads at all. I've yet to read anything that has jumped out at me.
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On August 31 2012 14:43 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Because unlike other policy lynches, lying is something only mafia need to do. Town lurks just as often as scum do, the vote abstaining thing doesn't mean much, but when someone gets caught in an outright lie they need to justify it rigorously and if they can't they are probably scum. The only time I wouldn't immediately vote for someone caught lying is in some really really strange closed setup. I remember in Arkham Asylum scum there were probably more lying townies than scum because people try to set traps with their roles and it never works.
Lying is more directly meaningful. If you vote just for lurkers, the mafia can congregate and influence the vote to lynch a town-aligned lurker so I don't think it helps much. You have to consider content first.
Anyway, it's too early for me to say if I have any reads at all. I've yet to read anything that has jumped out at me.
I think you'll probably need to mix meta reads into this as well. I played with Lvdr twice, and one time he lied heavily as town (he called it "faking a read to generate D1 discussion"); the other time he didn't lie and was town as well.
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On August 31 2012 14:50 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:43 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Because unlike other policy lynches, lying is something only mafia need to do. Town lurks just as often as scum do, the vote abstaining thing doesn't mean much, but when someone gets caught in an outright lie they need to justify it rigorously and if they can't they are probably scum. The only time I wouldn't immediately vote for someone caught lying is in some really really strange closed setup. I remember in Arkham Asylum scum there were probably more lying townies than scum because people try to set traps with their roles and it never works.
Lying is more directly meaningful. If you vote just for lurkers, the mafia can congregate and influence the vote to lynch a town-aligned lurker so I don't think it helps much. You have to consider content first.
Anyway, it's too early for me to say if I have any reads at all. I've yet to read anything that has jumped out at me. I think you'll probably need to mix meta reads into this as well. I played with Lvdr twice, and one time he lied heavily as town (he called it "faking a read to generate D1 discussion"); the other time he didn't lie and was town as well.
But if scum wagon a townie lurker, doesn't that also expose them all conveniently onto one wagon once the lurker flips green? Are you suggesting that scum here might decide to put all their votes on one lynch?
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I've lied as town before, but voting and pushing someone who lies gets you somewhere at least. If that person is town, mafia will likely be the ones pushing LAL the hardest saying that no matter how he justifies it town would never lie and we should lynch them.
In any case, lies deserve more analysis and suspicion than someone not posting for a couple hours. That's all. When I say I could get behind LAL as a policy lynch, I think people should vote and pressure people caught lying to force them to defend themselves and post often. That's the worst case scenario for scum anyway.
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On August 31 2012 14:52 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:50 Shady Sands wrote:On August 31 2012 14:43 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Because unlike other policy lynches, lying is something only mafia need to do. Town lurks just as often as scum do, the vote abstaining thing doesn't mean much, but when someone gets caught in an outright lie they need to justify it rigorously and if they can't they are probably scum. The only time I wouldn't immediately vote for someone caught lying is in some really really strange closed setup. I remember in Arkham Asylum scum there were probably more lying townies than scum because people try to set traps with their roles and it never works.
Lying is more directly meaningful. If you vote just for lurkers, the mafia can congregate and influence the vote to lynch a town-aligned lurker so I don't think it helps much. You have to consider content first.
Anyway, it's too early for me to say if I have any reads at all. I've yet to read anything that has jumped out at me. I think you'll probably need to mix meta reads into this as well. I played with Lvdr twice, and one time he lied heavily as town (he called it "faking a read to generate D1 discussion"); the other time he didn't lie and was town as well. But if scum wagon a townie lurker, doesn't that also expose them all conveniently onto one wagon once the lurker flips green? Are you suggesting that scum here might decide to put all their votes on one lynch?
No but let's say there are 3 lurkers in the game. 1 is scum and 2 are town. Scum have consolidated voting power and they only need to win by 1 vote to get a townie lynched.
All they have to do is have one person vocally push one of the town lurkers. When that person flips green, that person might come under mild suspicion but it'll likely get buried before the day is through. Chances are town will vote for that lurker too so it's not really that helpful to analyze the votes. When you lynch a lurker you don't learn anything because there wasn't any behavior or real analysis behind it. You just move onto the next lurker and hope they're scum this time.
That doesn't mean scum have to put all their votes on the same dude or even push the same guy. It's never that black and white.
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On August 31 2012 14:53 BlackMamba24 wrote:
I've lied as town before, but voting and pushing someone who lies gets you somewhere at least. If that person is town, mafia will likely be the ones pushing LAL the hardest saying that no matter how he justifies it town would never lie and we should lynch them.
In any case, lies deserve more analysis and suspicion than someone not posting for a couple hours. That's all. When I say I could get behind LAL as a policy lynch, I think people should vote and pressure people caught lying to force them to defend themselves and post often. That's the worst case scenario for scum anyway.
Fair enough. You still haven't posted any reads D1 yet. We're more than 12 hours in. What are your reads?
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You'll know what they are when I have any.
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On August 31 2012 14:26 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Are scum given safe roleclaims or specific town-aligned role names?
On August 27 2012 04:07 Zephirdd wrote:
All players will receive the vanilla-town role PM in order to avoid breadcumbing VT shenanigans.
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On August 31 2012 15:00 BlackMamba24 wrote:
You'll know what they are when I have any.
Why don't you have any right now?
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If you don't post your reads soon I will be forced to vote you. This has always been my policy.
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On August 31 2012 14:57 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:53 BlackMamba24 wrote:
I've lied as town before, but voting and pushing someone who lies gets you somewhere at least. If that person is town, mafia will likely be the ones pushing LAL the hardest saying that no matter how he justifies it town would never lie and we should lynch them.
In any case, lies deserve more analysis and suspicion than someone not posting for a couple hours. That's all. When I say I could get behind LAL as a policy lynch, I think people should vote and pressure people caught lying to force them to defend themselves and post often. That's the worst case scenario for scum anyway. Fair enough. You still haven't posted any reads D1 yet. We're more than 12 hours in. What are your reads?
We're actually only about 5 hours into the game atm.
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On August 31 2012 15:39 Shady Sands wrote:
If you don't post your reads soon I will be forced to vote you. This has always been my policy.
Go for it. I prefer not to waste my time making a forced case because someone asked me for my "reads".
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I sat down and read the whole thread now. I don't know Hapahauli's meta but I agree with Shady Sands' FOS. Hapahauli immediately breadcrumbs the VT rolename "detective" then qualifies/explains the post following it immediately.
Town wouldn't breadcrumb if they know mafia has a safeclaim and they wouldn't breadcrumb without knowing that. He didn't ask. Mafia, however, immediately like to abuse any defense they have. There is inherent guilt. If supplied with a safeclaim it's a very reasonable thing to do. I missed the Zephirrds post about the safeclaims because I'm very unattentive. When I first entered the thread, I only scanned and read the longer posts and made my comments about policy lynches. I forgot the game was starting tonight and saw my role PM right before I was about to watch a movie.
Why would a townie, after making a specific reference to his role name then immediately post that he will no longer be using real role names? Why would he even need to tell us that? Is he afraid someone is going to point it out as an inconsistency? the first two posts in the thread are him and they're both passively defensive. Scum like to announce things that are meaningless for some reason.
In his post history, he only goes on and on about lurkers and other bullshit like that. It's so tired and worthless. "Lurking is anti-town." What a revelation. Mafia are no more likely to lurk than town are and if town goes on a "let's kill the lurkers" bend how easy is it for the scum team to tell everyone on the team to just post a lot? It's stupid.
##vote Hapahauli
Also, just an aside regarding "reads". I consider them totally worthless. I will post and try to get someone lynched if I think they are mafia. I will not post a list of "suspects" or "reads" or make bullet points or anything like that. It has no value. Waste of a post. I almost made VE quit a game because I talked down on him so much for posting reads lists and other things like that so don't expect that out of me regardless of my alignment.
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Good morning, everyone!
So I've been reading some discussion about this from past games, and I've decided to come forth and claim. I am a self-aware miller.
I'm going to use this post to explain myself and my claim. Hopefully I'll do it well, but I'll also do my best to respond to questions, as well as just to establish my townieness through my play.
So first off, why claim now?
Well, it's clearly now or never. Millers claiming after they're checked are completely useless - in fact, they're worse than useless since they give actual scum cover to hide and potentially waste a lynch.
Second, why claim at all? Well, the main reason is that everyone in this game is a detective.
Usually, the main miller mechanic is that the presence of millers puts some doubt on a DT check and people actually have to discuss it. In a game with 30 people and one or two each of detectives and millers, it's pretty unlikely that the miller actually gets targeted with a DT check. (Unless you have a troll host who makes like the best three townies non-self-aware millers, thank you very much BC.)
But, like I said, in this game everyone is a detective. I know VTs don't get to actually make DT checks - I guess Zeph wasn't lying when he said he would send everyone in the game a copy of the VT role PM. However, in a setup where everyone is a "detective", I expect that there will be a large number of roles which actually do have DT checks. This means that it's much more likely than normal for a miller to get DT checked.
So, it's more important than usual for millers to claim early in this setup. If a non-claimed miller gets DT checked and returns scum, it just fucks with the town and could potentially waste an entire day's lynch. It's much better for the millers to claim on day 1 and then show they're town through their behavior. Like I said before, people claiming miller after day 1 are actively playing anti-town and should be destroyed.
So finally, what should this mean for the town and for me? Well, it obviously puts an onus on me to show I'm town through my play. That's fine, I'm going to do my best to live up to that. It is a very exciting time for my experiment, but I can and will post as much as I can from work, as well as both before and after work. I'm also going to do my best to find scum (although historically I tend to be more successful at judging other peoples' cases and less at making my own, but that's why we have other players to judge my cases as well).
For the rest of the town - it means you have to think critically about what I say. Am I pushing scum objectives? If so, lynch me. Am I promoting useful discussion that gets info out into the thread, or am I promoting trolling, spam, and ragefests? If any of the latter, lynch me. Are my cases good or bad? If they're bad, don't lynch me - bad cases =\= scum. Just tell me why you think they're bad, and see how I respond.
It also means you have to think critically about what other people are saying about me. Putting myself out as a miller should naturally draw attention to me, and that's something scum could try and piggy-back or bandwagon on. If people say I'm scum, think critically about their cases and their motivations.
So let's go town!
PRE-EDIT: I should be a little bit more specific. I don't know whether checks on me will return scum or town - all I'm told is that some checks on me will return scum instead of town. I speculate that there are different types of DT check in this game and I am only a miller to some of them - maybe L has special DT powers, and one of their advantages is that they are immune to some or all millers? I also don't know whether it's likely to have more than one or two millers in such a small setup, but having a lot of DT power roles could mean we have more millers than normal. If there are other self-aware millers, they should claim asap as well, or else never claim at all.
PRE-EDIT TWO: I AM IN EUROPE. This means I will be asleep for deadline; it's at 4:30AM my time. I'll do my best to compensate for this during the days here.
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The world can't handle my greatness.
I have no idea what's going on. Apparently I'm a detective but there's nothing that says I can investigate anyone.
I haven't read the op or the game, I'll get back to you when I have.
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So I wanted to give the whole thread a last re-read before I went off to work, and there are two things that stand out to me.
On August 31 2012 11:34 MrZentor wrote:##Vote: MrZentor + Show Spoiler +I'm not actually allowed to vote for myself, which is why it isn't bold, but just pretend like I did. Yeah, obv scum.
Zentor, what is this?
I'd really like you to step it up this game. Grush in PTP3 has shown that it really is possible to differentiate between terrible one-liners that do and don't demonstrate that you care about the game, and that actually help scumhunt and move the town forward. I'm not asking too much here, I just would like you to post about things that are relevant to the game.
Can you comment on the case against Hapahauli that BlackMamba has put forward?
+ Show Spoiler [an aside] +BlackMamba, I assume you would prefer we call you that instead of DrH if you're leaving that other name behind for good? We need to figure out how to abbreviate it since we've already got a BM, maybe BMB?
Now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so I also looked into the case on Hapahauli. At first I was very hesitant about it for a couple reasons - first, it always feels a bit off when there's only one lynch candidate, and second, I didn't entirely agree with BMB's case up above my posts. He could be right about the scum motivation for what Hapahauli did, but I could also read that first post as Hapahauli being excited an get into the spirit of the themed game. I don't think he's played any themed games here before, so I thought it was possible that he just thought everyone would play "in character" or something like that.
However, here's what I noted from him on my read-through of the thread so far:
On August 31 2012 11:46 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 11:40 Hopeless1der wrote:
Zeph is likely to take care of any actual lurking, but Hapa is right. If I'm too silent for too long, I expect to hear about it, preferably before I'm policy lynched for it. I'll apply the same principle to everyone else in the game. I disagree. No one here is a newbie, and every competent town player should know that lurking is bad in a 24 hour setup. As far as I'm concerned, if someone is not putting in the effort on their own after committing to such an intense setup, they are anti-town and deserve significant suspicion. I don't want to have to let anyone know. If someone lurks, my "reminder" will be a D1 lynch hammer, and they'll have to claw their way out to survive.
I really don't like this post - I don't think it's a pro-town attitude. Policy lynches aren't "traps" to be sprung, you won't catch scum with a trap you announce beforehand. Policy lynches exist to promote good town behavior, and if you can get that behavior literally any other way, then that's better than the policy lynch.
On August 31 2012 11:58 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 11:40 Hopeless1der wrote:
Zeph is likely to take care of any actual lurking, but Hapa is right. If I'm too silent for too long, I expect to hear about it, preferably before I'm policy lynched for it. I'll apply the same principle to everyone else in the game. Actually waaaaait a minute here. Are you suggesting that you'll be lurky or something? Surely you shouldn't be worried about "reminders" or whatnot if you're indeed pro-town and intend to post? ##Vote Hopeless1der
I find this to be completely insufficient reasoning to justify a vote. It's aggressive for no reason. My impression here is that Hapahauli is voting Hopeless because he doesn't think Hopeless is on board enough with his anti-lurker policy, rather than because he's scum. Sure, lurking can be scummy, but I see no indication why this post would make Hapahauli think Hopeless is scum.
So yeah, at this point hapahauli is my top scum read. However, I'm not quite ready to vote yet - there are a few very good players who haven't posted yet and I'm interested to hear what they have to say.
Aaaaand now I'm going to be late for work. T_T
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On August 31 2012 17:40 Palmar wrote:
The world can't handle my greatness.
I have no idea what's going on. Apparently I'm a detective but there's nothing that says I can investigate anyone.
I haven't read the op or the game, I'll get back to you when I have.
it's just the flaavor word for vt
btw strongandbig if you're fake claiming that's probably the smartest mafia fake claim i've ever seen. if you actually flip kira or something by the end of this game, i applaud you for a bold move like that
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EPT
