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even though i think my early 3. in pvz is better than the build you recommend i want to thank you for trying to help us
i really appreciate that a pro is posting here
i think i will try to do a guide for my pvz in about 2 weeks
but nice that you try to help, don t stop to update this and post new ones 
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On May 15 2012 02:49 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work. This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas. Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm).
What exactly you are arguing here about? Semantics? Stephano style is using 3 hatches to get get eco lead, roach warren and evo to be safe and then he used to transition where ever he wanted. Be it spire play/double spire play, max out on roaches or tons other transitions. This style was popularized in western scene by him so i consider it Stephano style (i guess DRG was doing that in korea as similar time).
The core stays - ability to get uncontested economy and tech to whatever he wants if not harrased and ability to deny early timing pushes/pressure if needed.
And no, this build dosn't tries to vigourius deny overlord scouting with 2 stalkers at 9 mins mark. So if you want to defend something just becouse you think its cool some pro player wrote on strategy section feel free to watch replay first so you actually have actual information.
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What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes.
In this thread, the Stephano style is defined to be the roach max out, as Monk indicated. If you have your own idea of what it is, you're barking up the wrong tree.
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Thanks for the guide, Mista, but I do have a few questions:
If you're moving out around 14:30 with a 160~ supply army, the Zerg player has presumably 2 chances to engage with 200/200 Roach/Ling to weaken and kill your army. The first is when you move out from your natural, and when you're in a relatively open area Zerg will engage from as many angles as possible to shave some of your supply and make you use forcefields. Then Zerg will remax as you move across the map and meet you a second time on creep. Assuming the Zerg player doesn't attempt to transition to Muta, Hydra, or Infestor, can't they overcome this 2base style with pure 4-5 hatchery Roach?
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 03:44 Narw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:49 NrGmonk wrote:On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work. This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas. Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm). What exactly you are arguing here about? Semantics? Stephano style is using 3 hatches to get get eco lead, roach warren and evo to be safe and then he used to transition where ever he wanted. Be it spire play/double spire play, max out on roaches or tons other transitions. This style was popularized in western scene by him so i consider it Stephano style (i guess DRG was doing that in korea as similar time). The core stays - ability to get uncontested economy and tech to whatever he wants if not harrased and ability to deny early timing pushes/pressure if needed. And no, this build dosn't tries to vigourius deny overlord scouting with 2 stalkers at 9 mins mark. So if you want to defend something just becouse you think its cool some pro player wrote on strategy section feel free to watch replay first so you actually have actual information.
Even though you personally consider standard 3 base hatch macro play "stephano style", that's not what most people consider "stephano style" and not what the OP is refering to when he says "stephano style". If you accept that, then you haven't really refuted any of my points that I made in my post. To rephrase my point, the OP isn't saying he counters 3 base macro play; he's saying his build counters blind 65 drone 4 hatch 4 gas max on roach ling into attack the protoss.
The part about denying overlord scouting is in the OP, even if he doesn't adhere to it as much as he should.
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On May 15 2012 03:44 Narw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:49 NrGmonk wrote:On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work. This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas. Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm). What exactly you are arguing here about? Semantics? Stephano style is using 3 hatches to get get eco lead, roach warren and evo to be safe and then he used to transition where ever he wanted. Be it spire play/double spire play, max out on roaches or tons other transitions.
That's not exactly what most people mean when they say Stephano-style. While it does involve a fast third against FFE, it is more of reference to the very aggressive max-out style, constantly trading and denying the protoss third base.
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I can understand your points that i consider stephano style openings something different, but at same time i still do not get how this build is stronger then lets say 11-12 mins warp prism/immortal/sentry push (which is actually safe against muta transition couse it hits way earlier) and how it can work against roach/bling (which if you really do fail to identify the build early enough you should transition into).
(i can understand how it can work vs that on shakuras where even with limited sentry energy you can get game ending position between zerg bases)
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:20 Narw wrote:
I can understand your points that i consider stephano style openings something different, but at same time i still do not get how this build is stronger then lets say 11-12 mins warp prism/immortal/sentry push (which is actually safe against muta transition couse it hits way earlier) and how it can work against roach/bling (which if you really do fail to identify the build early enough you should transition into).
(i can understand how it can work vs that on shakuras where even with limited sentry energy you can get game ending position between zerg bases)
That's a completely different point than anything you previously addressed.
I already explained the logic and rational behind his build here:
Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work.
This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas.
Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm).
That's what makes it different from a standard immortal/prism all-in. No one's saying this build is better or even solid. It's a completely different type of all-in that has a different way of thinking and tries to exploit something completely different than an immortal all-in. Re-read the last 2 paragraphs if you still don't get it.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
i love how people are complaining that this build is bad,
1. Hes a higher level player then probably 95% of people in this thread (He just recently beat White-Ra in a bo7/9 i dont remember among other notable players). He has a huge list of achievements and interviews. Mista is an established player. And imo this should be highlighted
2. He has a ton of replays showing how it works
Will definitely try this out, thank you Mista
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idk how so many people can doubt a guide written by a top EU GM professional player... lol half of you are probably in gold league tops
Personally looking forward to trying this out, looks like its good for some ladder points :D
On May 15 2012 04:46 JitnikoVi wrote:i love how people are complaining that this build is bad, 1. Hes a higher level player then probably 99% of people in this thread (He just recently beat White-Ra in a bo7/9 i dont remember among other notable players). He has a huge list of achievements and interviews. Mista is an established player. And imo this should be highlighted 2. He has a ton of replays showing how it works Will definitely try this out, thank you Mista
I fixed that for you
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kinda funny how all the lower level players bashing on the higher level player on builds when traditionally its the better player bashing on the plat level build.
Nowhere has this build been stated to be an "all purpose ladder" build. Its just a specific build vs a specific style of play. In the same sense where "nexus first or command center first" isnt a completely better build since you are vulnerable to certain phase of game.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:59 AGIANTSMURF wrote:idk how so many people can doubt a guide written by a top EU GM professional player... lol half of you are probably in gold league tops Personally looking forward to trying this out, looks like its good for some ladder points :D Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 04:46 JitnikoVi wrote:i love how people are complaining that this build is bad, 1. Hes a higher level player then probably 100% of people in this thread (He just recently beat White-Ra in a bo7/9 i dont remember among other notable players). He has a huge list of achievements and interviews. Mista is an established player. And imo this should be highlighted 2. He has a ton of replays showing how it works Will definitely try this out, thank you Mista I fixed that for you
Hah thx i didnt want to blatantly state it like that
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On May 15 2012 05:09 TheMista wrote:http://drop.sc/179637 vs Mouzbigs scouted early spire and got 3rd base leading to an epic 30 min game !
sick, this should silence all the fools who complained about muta :D
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nice! another way for protoss to gamble! make him see colossus tech and hope he makes lots of corrupters!
you dont beat a macro strategy with a cute little build involving mindgames, you beat it by playing well. if you are on top of building placement, macro, and scouting, you can beat 200/200 roaches at 11 minutes regardless of what your build is.
User was warned for this post
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I am sure you didnt read any of the discussion.
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On May 14 2012 16:44 TheMista wrote:
Its really hard for a zerg to go mutalisk when he doesnt see a 3rd base from protoss.
And you title says Anti stephano style , but even if he goes mutalisk you will scout it with your prism and obs.
3 hatch style is reactive. If someone sees you turtling on 2 base past 10 minutes why would they not tech to infestors or mutas and prepare for a colossus all-in? I'm sure this build is fine if your opponents are blindly maxing on roaches and neglecting tech, but it's definitely not a consistent style and it's not even as tricky or scary as other 2 base all-ins, so I'm not sure what the value of using this in a boX series would be.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 15 2012 02:49 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work. This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas. Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm).
I totally didnt understand this build until reading this post, so thank you very much
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@oOOoOphidian: Did you even try to look at any of the replays :/ ?
Thanks for the build Mista, I'm enjoying your replays atm .
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 06:06 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 16:44 TheMista wrote:
Its really hard for a zerg to go mutalisk when he doesnt see a 3rd base from protoss.
And you title says Anti stephano style , but even if he goes mutalisk you will scout it with your prism and obs. 3 hatch style is reactive. If someone sees you turtling on 2 base past 10 minutes why would they not tech to infestors or mutas and prepare for a colossus all-in? I'm sure this build is fine if your opponents are blindly maxing on roaches and neglecting tech, but it's definitely not a consistent style and it's not even as tricky or scary as other 2 base all-ins, so I'm not sure what the value of using this in a boX series would be.
Read my large post in this thread.
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EPT
